BitCoin
Quote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: BTLWI
There's no need for an underlying claim BECAUSE YOU CAN TRUST THE ISSUER.
In fiat you can't trust the issuer so you desire A BACKING.
Backing is only a requirement when there is no trust in issuance.
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Every Fiat currency has failed over time so my assumption is that trend will continue, including the U.S. dollar.
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Which non-Fiat currency has succeeded over time? As no nation's currency is a Fiat one, I'd argue that every fiat-based currency failed and evolved into the non-fiat system the world has used for at least the last fifty years.
We will all die, and the USofA will be subjected to history books someday, but it won't be because the dollar wasn't backed by silver.
It might be because of the population's addiction to plastic.
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What do you mean? Every contemporary currency is fiat, including Bitcoin, under the technical definition of the word fiat.
Bitcoin is unique in that it is non-inflationary and generally not legal tender, so a government can't dictate how much their is or how it can be used.
Quote: AutomaticMonkey[
Bitcoin is unique in that it is non-inflationary and generally not legal tender, so a government can't dictate how much their is or how it can be used.
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I kinda agree and disagree with this. Government in a personal sense can't control "free speech" directly either. But like in times of old, as soon as it's out of your mouth they can run a sword through your middle. There are all sorts of ways to control things even if not directly.
I think the dream of crypto was originally bigger, than the actual reality will be as far as monetary freedom.
Quote: lilredroosterQuote: vegasQuote: lilredrooster.
how is the price of bitcoin and how are any changes in the price determined__________?
and who if anybody makes that determination________?
.
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Just like stocks it is supply and demand. If you have more buyers than sellers it pushes the price up. People often sell to take some profit and then rebuy on dips.
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okay
but let's say today you have $900 million more in buys than sells
how is it determined how much the price will go up _____________?
what is the calculation_________? link to original post
"More buyers than sellers" is the common explanation, and it's wrong. The price has nothing to do with the *number* of buyers or sellers. And it's not even the total *amount* of shares or coins that all the buyers/sellers want to sell or buy, either. The price is entirely determined by the highest price a buyer is willing to pay, and the lowest price a seller is willing to accept. That's managed by something called on "Order Book".
Below is the current Order Book for Bitcoin on Kraken, a popular exchange. Buyers are listed on the bottom. The most any buyer is willing to pay is $116,537.50. All the buyers willing to pay that price have 3.28 BTC that they're willing to buy.
On the top side are the sellers. The lowest price any seller is willing to accept is $116,537.60. The total number of BTC that all sellers willing to sell at that price is 2.0 BTC.
Those are all orders placed by buyers and sellers who are waiting for the price to move before they buy or sell. But let's say you want to buy 3.0 BTC right away, at whatever the price is. That's a "Market Order". You place your order, which swallows up the first three cheapest lines on the top of the order book from the sellers (which totals 2.01 BTC), and then you buy 0.99 BTC of the fourth-cheapest line ($116,554.80). The last trade was $116,554.80, so that's the current price.
Or at least, that's the current price at Kraken. The price differs a little from exchange to exchange.
Quote: MichaelBluejay
The price is entirely determined by the highest price a buyer is willing to pay, and the lowest price a seller is willing to accept
That's managed by something called on "Order Book".
how could they possibly know for example the highest price a buyer is willing to pay______?
there are surely lots of uninformed buyers placing market orders who probably would be willing to pay more than what the Order Book says is the highest price a buyer is willing to pay
I admit to being uninformed when I bought Bitcoin years ago. I placed a market order. I had no idea of the price at the time. They could have charged me anything.
.
Quote: rxwineQuote: AutomaticMonkey[
Bitcoin is unique in that it is non-inflationary and generally not legal tender, so a government can't dictate how much their is or how it can be used.
link to original post
I kinda agree and disagree with this. Government in a personal sense can't control "free speech" directly either. But like in times of old, as soon as it's out of your mouth they can run a sword through your middle. There are all sorts of ways to control things even if not directly.
I think the dream of crypto was originally bigger, than the actual reality will be as far as monetary freedom.
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My reason for saying that is it not being legal tender. That term does not mean it must be accepted for trade, it means it must be accepted as payment for a debt within some jurisdiction. And courts are the arbitrators of debts.
So let's say you want to sell me your car, you don't have to accept dollars, you can insist on 1 bitcoin. That's fine, that price, and thus the value of the car relative to Bitcoin is between you and me, we have to come to an agreement. But let's say I damage your car, and we go to court, and the judge says I owe you either $10,000 or 1 bitcoin. That judge has just placed a limit on the value of Bitcoin.
The guys who want Bitcoin to be legal tender I don't think are considering this, and I would rather see the value of Bitcoin to be separated from any armed authority; just the buyers and sellers of good and services come to a collective consensus on what a bitcoin is worth. Sure government can still punish us if we don't do what they tell us to do, but they can't tell us how we value our bitcoins.
Also being based on digital communications it's a lot harder for them to see what we are doing with it, unlike the currency they issue and regulate.
Quote: lilredrooster.
Quote: MichaelBluejay
The price is entirely determined by the highest price a buyer is willing to pay, and the lowest price a seller is willing to accept
That's managed by something called on "Order Book".
how could they possibly know for example the highest price a buyer is willing to pay______?
there are surely lots of uninformed buyers placing market orders who probably would be willing to pay more than what the Order Book says is the highest price a buyer is willing to pay
I admit to being uninformed when I bought Bitcoin years ago. I placed a market order. I had no idea of the price at the time. They could have charged me anything.
.
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The kind of people who would be paying a random price for BTC aren't buying enough to affect the market. That happens all the time on some books, called "fat fingering" where someone makes a typo in entering their order and there are people positioned to exploit that. It doesn't have enough weight to move the market much.
Again, that's determined by the order book. For people waiting for the price to move, they've put in their orders stating the max they're willing to pay. For people *not* waiting for the price to move, they get the cheapest price listed in the order book when they place their Buy order.Quote: lilredrooster.how could they possibly know for example the highest price a buyer is willing to pay______? link to original post
It doesn't matter. If the cheapest Sell price is the order book is $100, but a market buyer is willing to pay $200, lucky for them they won't get ripped off, when they place their order they'll get the $100 price.Quote: lilredroosterthere are surely lots of uninformed buyers placing market orders who probably would be willing to pay more than what the Order Book says is the highest price a buyer is willing to pay
No, they couldn't have. You got the cheapest Sell price listed in the order book.Quote: lilredroosterI admit to being uninformed when I bought Bitcoin years ago. I placed a market order. I had no idea of the price at the time. They could have charged me anything.
Quote: lilredrooster.
Quote: MichaelBluejay
The price is entirely determined by the highest price a buyer is willing to pay, and the lowest price a seller is willing to accept
That's managed by something called on "Order Book".
how could they possibly know for example the highest price a buyer is willing to pay______?
there are surely lots of uninformed buyers placing market orders who probably would be willing to pay more than what the Order Book says is the highest price a buyer is willing to pay
I admit to being uninformed when I bought Bitcoin years ago. I placed a market order. I had no idea of the price at the time. They could have charged me anything.
The issue is when you put a market order in and a dozen people frontrun your transaction.
.
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Quote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: BTLWI
There's no need for an underlying claim BECAUSE YOU CAN TRUST THE ISSUER.
In fiat you can't trust the issuer so you desire A BACKING.
Backing is only a requirement when there is no trust in issuance.
link to original post
Every Fiat currency has failed over time so my assumption is that trend will continue, including the U.S. dollar.
link to original post
Which non-Fiat currency has succeeded over time? As no nation's currency is a Fiat one, I'd argue that every fiat-based currency failed and evolved into the non-fiat system the world has used for at least the last fifty years.
We will all die, and the USofA will be subjected to history books someday, but it won't be because the dollar wasn't backed by silver.
It might be because of the population's addiction to plastic.
link to original post
What do you mean? Every contemporary currency is fiat, including Bitcoin, under the technical definition of the word fiat.
Bitcoin is unique in that it is non-inflationary and generally not legal tender, so a government can't dictate how much their is or how it can be used.
link to original post
Strike that. Reverse it. As every currency in the world is fiat, I think it is safe to say that non-fiat currencies have failed and their time has passed.
Edit- I corrected my original post as I reversed fiat and non-fiat.
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
Quote: rxwinean economist is comparing crypto to Beanie Babies
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
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People who like centralized authority hate Bitcoin.
He is just upset he missed the boat since he has been anti BTC for years, since back when it was 14k.Quote: rxwinean economist is comparing crypto to Beanie Babies
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
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It could be worth 2 million 20 years down the road, and he would still be saying the same thing.
Quote: AxelWolfHe is just upset he missed the boat since he has been anti BTC for years, since back when it was 14k.Quote: rxwinean economist is comparing crypto to Beanie Babies
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
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It could be worth 2 million 20 years down the road, and he would still be saying the same thing.
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Towards the end of 2022, I posted that I was a buyer at 15K. It dropped below 20K but never hit my buy level, and a few months later, it hit $60,000. It would have been nice to ride it all the way, but I would have sold at 25, so I only missed out on 10K, and other investments made that. I've stopped studying who is buying and selling bitcoin, but my gut feeling is that most current holders are underwater. I might be a buyer if it drops below 30K if it survives the death spiral. I don't think it will drop that low, but who is to say?
Quote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: rxwinean economist is comparing crypto to Beanie Babies
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
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People who like centralized authority hate Bitcoin.
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People with common sense hate Bitcoin
Quote: EvenBobQuote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: rxwinean economist is comparing crypto to Beanie Babies
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
link to original post
People who like centralized authority hate Bitcoin.
link to original post
People with common sense hate Bitcoin
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Why, what's wrong with Bitcoin? It is universal money, programmable, and forever out of reach of all governments and crooks (but I repeat myself).
People who hate bitcoin are not up a crapton. I think it's literally up over a billion percent since the start.Quote: EvenBobQuote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: rxwinean economist is comparing crypto to Beanie Babies
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
link to original post
People who like centralized authority hate Bitcoin.
link to original post
People with common sense hate Bitcoin
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I'm not sure why you would buy something that you compare to Beanie Babies. You should be shorting Bitcoin because at any moment it Should Crash down to almost nothing if in fact it's like a Beanie Baby.Quote: billryanQuote: AxelWolfHe is just upset he missed the boat since he has been anti BTC for years, since back when it was 14k.Quote: rxwinean economist is comparing crypto to Beanie Babies
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
link to original post
It could be worth 2 million 20 years down the road, and he would still be saying the same thing.
link to original post
Towards the end of 2022, I posted that I was a buyer at 15K. It dropped below 20K but never hit my buy level, and a few months later, it hit $60,000. It would have been nice to ride it all the way, but I would have sold at 25, so I only missed out on 10K, and other investments made that. I've stopped studying who is buying and selling bitcoin, but my gut feeling is that most current holders are underwater. I might be a buyer if it drops below 30K if it survives the death spiral. I don't think it will drop that low, but who is to say?
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Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Why, what's wrong with Bitcoin? It is universal money, programmable, and forever out of reach of all governments and crooks (but I repeat myself).
Do you really believe that Bitcoin is out of reach of governments and crooks?
Quote: AxelWolfI'm not sure why you would buy something that you compare to Beanie Babies. You should be shorting Bitcoin because at any moment it Should Crash down to almost nothing if in fact it's like a Beanie Baby.Quote: billryanQuote: AxelWolfHe is just upset he missed the boat since he has been anti BTC for years, since back when it was 14k.Quote: rxwinean economist is comparing crypto to Beanie Babies
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
link to original post
It could be worth 2 million 20 years down the road, and he would still be saying the same thing.
link to original post
Towards the end of 2022, I posted that I was a buyer at 15K. It dropped below 20K but never hit my buy level, and a few months later, it hit $60,000. It would have been nice to ride it all the way, but I would have sold at 25, so I only missed out on 10K, and other investments made that. I've stopped studying who is buying and selling bitcoin, but my gut feeling is that most current holders are underwater. I might be a buyer if it drops below 30K if it survives the death spiral. I don't think it will drop that low, but who is to say?
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I don't think I've ever compared Bitcoin to Beanie Babies. I think a better comparison would be tulips. I don't have to endorse a product to buy or sell it.
Tulips are basiccly the same thing. So if you're comparing it to tulips and it drops all the way down to 30,000, why would you buy at $30,000? Do you believe it's worth more than 30,000? If not, what's special about 30,000? With your comparison to tulips, why would you not think it's going to go down much further?Quote: billryanQuote: AxelWolfI'm not sure why you would buy something that you compare to Beanie Babies. You should be shorting Bitcoin because at any moment it Should Crash down to almost nothing if in fact it's like a Beanie Baby.Quote: billryanQuote: AxelWolfHe is just upset he missed the boat since he has been anti BTC for years, since back when it was 14k.Quote: rxwinean economist is comparing crypto to Beanie Babies
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
link to original post
It could be worth 2 million 20 years down the road, and he would still be saying the same thing.
link to original post
Towards the end of 2022, I posted that I was a buyer at 15K. It dropped below 20K but never hit my buy level, and a few months later, it hit $60,000. It would have been nice to ride it all the way, but I would have sold at 25, so I only missed out on 10K, and other investments made that. I've stopped studying who is buying and selling bitcoin, but my gut feeling is that most current holders are underwater. I might be a buyer if it drops below 30K if it survives the death spiral. I don't think it will drop that low, but who is to say?
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I don't think I've ever compared Bitcoin to Beanie Babies. I think a better comparison would be tulips. I don't have to endorse a product to buy or sell it.
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I thought you said you had some kind of investment that also included BTC?
They are a micro investment—one in bitcoin, one in Solerna, and one in the overall market. I bought more US postage this year than crypto.
Quote: billryanIt isn't about what I believe; it is what others think it is worth.
They are a micro investment—one in bitcoin, one in Solerna, and one in the overall market. I bought more US postage this year than crypto.
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So what makes you believe others will believe it's worth more than $30,000? Again, I ask, what's special to you about the price of $30,000?
Quote: DRichQuote: AutomaticMonkey
Why, what's wrong with Bitcoin? It is universal money, programmable, and forever out of reach of all governments and crooks (but I repeat myself).
Do you really believe that Bitcoin is out of reach of governments and crooks?
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Yes. My bitcoins are protected by a 256-bit number. I will be perfectly happy for a government to spend its time and resources trying to guess it!
Your number would be different.
Unlike stocks, there aren't real numbers to crunch, so risk and reward play a much bigger part than in a regular stock or ETF.
Quote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: DRichQuote: AutomaticMonkey
Why, what's wrong with Bitcoin? It is universal money, programmable, and forever out of reach of all governments and crooks (but I repeat myself).
Do you really believe that Bitcoin is out of reach of governments and crooks?
link to original post
Yes. My bitcoins are protected by a 256-bit number. I will be perfectly happy for a government to spend its time and resources trying to guess it!
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The government accessing your money isn't what you should be worried about. What about the government denying you access to it?
Quote: billryanQuote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: DRichQuote: AutomaticMonkey
Why, what's wrong with Bitcoin? It is universal money, programmable, and forever out of reach of all governments and crooks (but I repeat myself).
Do you really believe that Bitcoin is out of reach of governments and crooks?
link to original post
Yes. My bitcoins are protected by a 256-bit number. I will be perfectly happy for a government to spend its time and resources trying to guess it!
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The government accessing your money isn't what you should be worried about. What about the government denying you access to it?
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I suppose they could lock me in a cell and deny me access to digital communications. But they could also and even more easily deny me access to cash, bank accounts, gold bars, and everything else. I'll take my chances with the Bitcoin bros, rather than the banking industry, that has no choice but to ask "How high?" when the government authorities say "Jump."
Bitcoins don't exist anywhere but the blockchain and there are a million copies of that around the world, all in sync, all peers, and they all have the hash of the private key for every account and if I can show that private key, they all agree that they are my bitcoins to transfer.
Can bitcoin be used to evade censorship? For instance, the size of the smallest trade unit would be “A” and so on through the alphabet for larger and larger trades.
I have yet to buy any or could answer for myself. Was wondering if two people trading back and forth in one country could be noted by someone on the other side of the world just by knowing to look at the size of those trades.
Quote: rxwineGood thread to ask this.
Can bitcoin be used to evade censorship? For instance, the size of the smallest trade unit would be “A” and so on through the alphabet for larger and larger trades.
I have yet to buy any or could answer for myself. Was wondering if two people trading back and forth in one country could be noted by someone on the other side of the world just by knowing to look at the size of those trades.
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Absolutely yes. I believe this is what you are looking for:
https://cointelegraph.com/learn/articles/bitcoins-hidden-messages-legacy-of-cryptography-pioneers
For a while, there was a thing called Satoshi Dice where people used the randomness of the next block to be solved as a dice roll for betting, betting Bitcoins of course!
Quote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: EvenBobQuote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: rxwinean economist is comparing crypto to Beanie Babies
Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis President and CEO Neel Kashkari about the recent crash in cryptocurrency valuation and why he doesn’t have confidence in the asset
link to original post
People who like centralized authority hate Bitcoin.
link to original post
People with common sense hate Bitcoin
link to original post
Why, what's wrong with Bitcoin? It is universal money, programmable, and forever out of reach of all governments and crooks (but I repeat myself).
link to original post
Out Of Reach of all governments, you just made my case. This is why it cannot last and will not.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: AutomaticMonkey
Why, what's wrong with Bitcoin? It is universal money, programmable, and forever out of reach of all governments and crooks (but I repeat myself).
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Out Of Reach of all governments, you just made my case. This is why it cannot last and will not.
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You seem to be of the belief that they have the power to do anything about it! But they never gave us permission to create Bitcoin, and we never asked for it. We just did it.
So I see it the opposite way- so great are the egos of politicians that they would never accept the humiliation of trying to ban Bitcoin and failing, so they will claim they are all for it, it's a great idea, and we have them to thank for it. Like an emperor who realizes he cannot conquer some province, so he orders his cartographers to remove all mentions of it from his maps, and crows that he is the ruler of all the known world.
Why is it worth 30k to you? Is that because that's what you think others will play for it? Why do you think that?Quote: billryanI'm not saying bitcoin is worth $30,000. I'm saying that is what bitcoin is worth to me. It is the price where reward and risk intersect.
Your number would be different.
Unlike stocks, there aren't real numbers to crunch, so risk and reward play a much bigger part than in a regular stock or ETF.
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If, in fact, it's another tulip mania and drops to 30k, it's probably because most everyone else believes it's another tulip mania and it's going down to the low 1000s or even lower.
