Card Counting At Online Blackjack?
The way that most casinos operate, as far as I know, is they have a shoe with a set number of decks, and after each game, the shoe is reset.
As such, not enough cards come out during a single hand game to really allow for any counting. But during a multi-hand game, or a game with multiple splits, enough cards may come out to allow one to move the proverbial dial a little bit.
Has anyone tried? And is this just wild speculation with no possible support in probability?
Quote: TheLastCylonHas anyone ever tried counting cards at online BJ?
The way that most casinos operate, as far as I know, is they have a shoe with a set number of decks, and after each game, the shoe is reset.
As such, not enough cards come out during a single hand game to really allow for any counting. But during a multi-hand game, or a game with multiple splits, enough cards may come out to allow one to move the proverbial dial a little bit.
Has anyone tried? And is this just wild speculation with no possible support in probability?
It's like trying to count against a CSM, but even worse since the discards are returned immediately and re-shuffled with the rest of the pack. Since you can't change your bet after the round has started, you can't get any advantage from bet sizing. All you could do is make BS deviations based on the cards that have come out. Against a shoe game, don't waste your time. You may be able to cut a tiny bit off the house edge, but that will be it.
If it's a single-deck game, it can be done if you are one of the last players to act and know ALL of the esoteric single deck strategy variations. But I would be online casinos take precautions against this, such as having each player dealt from his "own" deck, much like many of the electronic games in B&M casinos do. If this is the case, the other hands on the table don't mean anything to you.
The main caveat is not about finding EV. It's that in B&M your chips can't be taken away without payback without risk of legal consequences and you can almost always get your money. Online, you are playing with numbers on a server, and are at the casino's mercy as far as getting paid goes.
Quote: TheLastCylonHas anyone ever tried counting cards at online BJ?
The way that most casinos operate, as far as I know, is they have a shoe with a set number of decks, and after each game, the shoe is reset.
As such, not enough cards come out during a single hand game to really allow for any counting. But during a multi-hand game, or a game with multiple splits, enough cards may come out to allow one to move the proverbial dial a little bit.
Has anyone tried? And is this just wild speculation with no possible support in probability?
Yes I have done it successfully in Coral's single deck BJ game which allowed 5 hands to be played simultaneously from a single deck. I bet minimum £1 on the first four hands and maximum £500 on the fifth hand, because by the fifth hand I would see the maximum number of cards to alter strategy. This single-deck game had only 0.11% house edge to begin with so even a slight improvement of seeing extra cards pushed the game to player edge.
I have also card counted Live dealer Blackjack at online casinos a couple of times.
Quote: Jufo81Yes I have done it successfully in Coral's single deck BJ game which allowed 5 hands to be played simultaneously from a single deck. I bet minimum £1 on the first four hands and maximum £500 on the fifth hand, because by the fifth hand I would see the maximum number of cards to alter strategy. This single-deck game had only 0.11% house edge to begin with so even a slight improvement of seeing extra cards pushed the game to player edge.
I have also card counted Live dealer Blackjack at online casinos a couple of times.
Awesome. I knew I could count on you for a successful anecdote.
Were you "spotted" in the live dealer game? As in, did they cut you off?
I have never understood this so called fact. Two of us playing. Dealer has a 2 up, I hit my 12 and break.. Other player is next to act and hits hard 15 and breaks. Dealer had a 9 under that 2 and now he is done. His next 2 cards would have been 10, Q.
Next hand I have 19 and lose to that 20. Or perhaps the next 6 hands the dealer has better cards. As long as the other player can indeed change the dealers sequence, he does impact my wins and losses. Just a different spin, that's all.
Quote: Buzzard" If this is the case, the other hands on the table don't mean anything to you. "
I have never understood this so called fact. Two of us playing. Dealer has a 2 up, I hit my 12 and break.. Other player is next to act and hits hard 15 and breaks. Dealer had a 9 under that 2 and now he is done. His next 2 cards would have been 10, Q.
Next hand I have 19 and lose to that 20. Or perhaps the next 6 hands the dealer has better cards. As long as the other player can indeed change the dealers sequence, he does impact my wins and losses. Just a different spin, that's all.
I assumed that in his example, the dealer was drawing from a separate deck/shoe as well.
Quote: Buzzard" If this is the case, the other hands on the table don't mean anything to you. "
I have never understood this so called fact. Two of us playing. Dealer has a 2 up, I hit my 12 and break.. Other player is next to act and hits hard 15 and breaks. Dealer had a 9 under that 2 and now he is done. His next 2 cards would have been 10, Q.
Next hand I have 19 and lose to that 20. Or perhaps the next 6 hands the dealer has better cards. As long as the other player can indeed change the dealers sequence, he does impact my wins and losses. Just a different spin, that's all.
The specific situation I was attempting to describe would happen on a game where a new deck is used after every hand, and in addition, each PLAYER is playing from his own virtual deck. I am not 100% certain, but I think this is how some video BJ machines work. In this case, the other player's hand really has no impact whatsoever on you, whether in terms of "changing the order of the cards" or in terms of strategy variations due to the cards you see in their hands.
But I never could take this opportunity, as I never had the optimal bankroll for it. - And this is exactly what I want to ask you, what is the minimum bankroll you need to have in order to "safely" (RoR<1% according to Kelly Critter) profit from this opportunity ?
Also, if the maximum bet would have been 50 units instead 500, would still have been +EV ? So, better to ask you, how small needs the maximum bet be in order for the equation to remain +EV ? - And lastly, what was your win rate per hour at 1-500 bet units ?
And in regards to counting on Live Blackjack games, yes it is possible, but if they catch you, they void all money and close account !
At least 5Dimes have this anti-counting policy written in their Terms & Co., other sites may simply restrict your Live Games access.
Quote: TheLastCylonAwesome. I knew I could count on you for a successful anecdote.
Hehe, thanks. But it's worth mentioning that you need 1) single-deck 2) five simultaneous hands 3) favourable rules so that the game has very low house edge with basic strategy (perhaps card tracking is a better expression than counting, since you are really playing complex composition-dependent strategy which is not the same as traditional "counting"). If these conditions aren't met you can't push it past house edge.
Quote: TheLastCylonWere you "spotted" in the live dealer game? As in, did they cut you off?
I really haven't tried it much as the edge is tiny and it is not really profitable if you take the effort and time spent into account. So, no I haven't had any issues but I haven't done it much.
The Live Dealer softwares also have glitches, which might be deliberate. I have witnessed several times that I have been unable to hit a hand, say 9 vs. 7 and have been forced to stand. These "bugs" easily take out any edge.
First example: I once played at BetInternet Live casino and had a good run with their 100% $200 casino sign-up bonus. I had a large bet and got 11 vs. 4. The button to hit/double was never shown on the client, so I was forced to stand and lost. I complained to them and requested them to give my lost bet back but they said that they are not responsible if there is a problem with the Internet connection. It didn't help that I told them that my Internet connection is rock solid so the disconnection had to occur at their end. The opportunities for the on-line casino to cheat in Live Dealer games like this is a serious concern.
Second example: At SmartLive casino Live Blackjack I had three issues in just a couple of sessions. First, I had a $100 bet and won but the winnings were never paid and only my bet was returned. The staff said that they had a technical problem and refused to pay out $100 win for the hand.
Then there were two more issues where the video footage showed dealer hitting a Ten value card to a stiff 12-16, which causes the dealer to bust and my hand to win. But the Ten-value card was not recorded to the software - instead it showed the dealer hitting the next card in sequence, where the dealer made a hand. I complained to them and showed them the screenshot of the video footage where dealer's bust card was not recorded, and they had to pay my bet+winnings for those hands. Whether they reimbursed anyone else who were at the table at the same time, I have no idea.
Quote: PlayHunterJufo81, I knew that is the way to beat a 5 handed single deck blackjack, which is very rarely to find. Betting minimum on first four hands and max on the last one, and at the same time adjusting to the optimal strategy after seeing the previous cards.
But I never could take this opportunity, as I never had the optimal bankroll for it. - And this is exactly what I want to ask you, what is the minimum bankroll you need to have in order to "safely" (RoR<1% according to Kelly Critter) profit from this opportunity ?
I never played this game for quaranteed profit. I played it because I wanted to gamble on Blackjack and figured that if I am going to play BJ anyway, why not choose the most favourable game with a small player edge.
The player edge with the 5-hand strategy was only around 0.2% - 0.3% so there are calculators that can calculate the bankroll needed and risk of ruin for your question, or you can simply calculate it from normal distribution.
Quote: PlayHunter
Also, if the maximum bet would have been 50 units instead 500, would still have been +EV ? So, better to ask you, how small needs the maximum bet be in order for the equation to remain +EV ? - And lastly, what was your win rate per hour at 1-500 bet units ?
I don't know the exact answers to those questions. All I knew that the last hand with large bet on it had around 0.3% edge.
The 5-handed single-deck BJ game in question was +EV even without bet spreading, in other words you could also bet a flat amount on every hand since you still see extra cards every round. So betting max on the last hand is not necessary. I just did it for fun.
Quote: PlayHunter
And in regards to counting on Live Blackjack games, yes it is possible, but if they catch you, they void all money and close account !
At least 5Dimes have this anti-counting policy written in their Terms & Co., other sites may simply restrict your Live Games access.
Didn't the Wizard (Shackleford) write here about counting cards at Live BJ at 5Dimes? Maybe they added the professional card counter rule after that. The 5Dimes website says:
Professional card counters are prohibited. If you are found to be a professional card counter, your account is subject to immediate closure.
It looks to me that they can ban you and close your account but I don't think they have any right to confiscate your funds, like they cannot do at B&M either. I would also argue that I am a recreational card counter and not a professional card counter, which is true. If they can actually confiscate your money, that's really terrible.
Quote: Jufo81It looks to me that they can ban you and close your account but I don't think they have any right to confiscate your funds, like they cannot do at B&M either. I would also argue that I am a recreational card counter and not a professional card counter, which is true. If they can actually confiscate your money, that's really terrible.
It's pretty standard practice at online casinos to seize or "freeze" cash in user accounts. Very different from B&M. They
And then it's you who has to prove anything to them. If you convince them, they might return your initial deposit. All winnings... Maybe a few of the most responsible operators. Most won't.
Card counters rely on the legality of their actions and on the legal system to protect them against undue actions. That's what makes play with ~1% edge profitable. Online these protections are limited when existent.
Quote: Jufo81The Live Dealer softwares also have glitches, which might be deliberate. I have witnessed several times that I have been unable to hit a hand, say 9 vs. 7 and have been forced to stand. These "bugs" easily take out any edge.
I doubt that it's an attempt to eliminate any edge. I'm just thinking about the large amount of technical expertise required to synchronise video feeds, multiple users, etc. Even Skype falls on its face pretty frequently. The technical clowns that I imagine populate your average online casino software company stand no chance.
Yes, sometimes the action button does not appear, cards are not clear and display state an erroneous numbers for your hand. When you inquire they say nothing. If you video register it, then you have to wait some time and you will get your money back (probably).
At the same time, the companies which offer a lower bet spread, do offer great quality games: very clear cards, buttons and sound.
You would think that educated gamblers today would know better then to actually try and have serious conversations about online blackjack strategies in today's confirmed online environment.
Discussions like this thread are usually reserved for the not so smart cult followers at other online gaming forums.
