Bovada muck bug (?)

I'd write to Bovada's customer service about this, but frankly, I'm afraid to, because just knowing about it feels like cheating.

I'm not sure if this is intentional or not - can't imagine why it would be - but if a hand goes to the showdown, you pretty much can't muck. You can, but then your cards still show up in the hand history as if you'd shown them, and can be checked in the very next hand. This is bad enough in cash play, but it seems to be true even in tourneys, which is insane. If it's intentional, they really ought to take out the "muck" button entirely; if not, well...

This is true for pretty much every online poker site. I believe it stems from the fact that, in a live game, any player is allowed to ask to see any hand that made it to the showdown.

Only if you are in the showdown. Plus you will have to dig my cards out of the muck.

Quote: Buzzard

Only if you are in the showdown.

Not true. Anyone who is dealt into the hand can ask, and has the right to see them.

Quote: Buzzard

Plus you will have to dig my cards out of the muck.

That may be, but it doesn't really change the rule. A good dealer will stop the cards from going into the muck before someone has asked to see them.

With no callers at the showdown, my cards are going in the muck. PERIOD !

You are talking Robert's Rules. I am talking reality.

There has been a recent trend in public cardroom rules to limit the ability of players to request to see mucked losing hands at the showdown. Specifically, some cardrooms only grant the right to view a mucked losing hand if the requesting player articulates a concern about possible collusion.


Can you imagine some asshole asking to see my hand, after I have bluffed someone into laying his hand? REALLY !

Or some jerk asking to see my hand each and every time I am in a showdown? There is Nicey-Nice Robert's Rules and then then is playing for cash. 2 Separate worlds. And rightfully so !

This doesn't apply to the situation where there are no callers. Only when you weren't the aggressor.

Although I wasn't aware of that rule in live play. I don't think it's the case where I play...

Quote: Buzzard

With no callers at the showdown, my cards are going in the muck. PERIOD !

No callers? Then there's no showdown. I think we may be talking about different situations.

I'm talking about a situation where, say, you bet on the end, and someone calls. You show your hand, and the caller mucks. Any player (dealt into the hand) has the right to ask to see the caller's hand.

If you bet on the end and no one calls, there's no showdown. The pot is yours and no one has the right to see your hand.

What right ? He's out of the hand . Screw him. Not anyplace I ever played. Think about it ? What if some guy did this every time there was a showdown. ?According to Robert's Rules he could.



You are talking Robert's Rules. I am talking reality.

There has been a recent trend in public cardroom rules to limit the ability of players to request to see mucked losing hands at the showdown. Specifically, some cardrooms only grant the right to view a mucked losing hand if the requesting player articulates a concern about possible collusion.


Can you imagine some asshole asking to see my hand, after I have bluffed someone into laying his hand? REALLY !

Or some jerk asking to see my hand each and every time I am in a showdown? There is Nicey-Nice Robert's Rules and then then is playing for cash. 2 Separate worlds. And rightfully so !

I agree with you that the rule is stupid. But, it is what it is.

It is meant to prevent collusion. But, it does a terrible job of that. Here's what usually happens (in a limit game, anyway):

3 people in on the turn. A bets, B calls, C raises, A re-raises.

B is upset because he just wasted a turn bet. He folds, telling the dealer "I want to see both hands" in the process. The idea is that if the two players were colluding to force him out, and raising with nothing, he will know.

Except, it doesn't work. If the players are really colluding and don't want him to see the hands, there is just a bet and a fold on the river, and no one gets to see either hand.

I've never really seen the rule badly abused too badly. A few times, I've seen someone get pissed off at another player and start to ask to see his hand every time. After a couple of hands the "victim" says, ok, now I want to see all the hands at every showdown. This is annoying enough to the players that everyone stops asking to see hands. So, it all works itself out within 5 hands or so.

If some card rooms are limiting it, I'm fine with that too, especially if they were having a problem with the rule being abused. Real collusion is undetectable this way anyway. People trying to collude by forcing someone else out of the hand cost themselves money in the long run (because they pay him off 2-1 for max bets when he has a good hand) Real collusion is done with signalling, and "best hand" plays. In other words, when people who know what they are doing are colluding, they are never in a hand together. It's pretty difficult to detect, since there are other, legitimate reasons why 2 players may rarely be in a hand together.

I agree with you that the rule is stupid. But, it is what it is.


Well, it is rapidly becoming non-existent. And I have only been called on it twice. I shoved my cards in the muck anyway.

And that was that !

Quote: Buzzard

Can you imagine some asshole asking to see my hand, after I have bluffed someone into laying his hand? REALLY !

Again, we aren't talking about this situation, only where there's an actual showdown.

Any situation, if I don't care to show my hand, it's going in the muck. End of discussion.

This comes from Robert's Rules of Poker, Chapter 3 - General Rules, section "Showdown", paragraph 5:

Quote: Robert's Rules

Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

As a dealer in a poker league, I deal about 10 to 15 hours per week. I get asked to invoke this rule about once a month. I've seen it invoked in a casino only once.

I do not view the Bovada situation as a bug per se, but more like bad implementation of the rule.

If I were the system designer, I'd have the hand history specify "Mucked at showdown." I would also have that be a link, where a player would be able to see the cards. But I'd make that link/option available only prior to taking action on the next hand.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

If I were the system designer, I'd have the hand history specify "Mucked at showdown." I would also have that be a link, where a player would be able to see the cards.

Why not simply automatically show all live hands at showdown. If the poker rules effectively say that you cannot fold your hand at showdown, why even offer the option to "muck" by the software ?

Quote: MangoJ

Why not simply automatically show all live hands at showdown. If the poker rules effectively say that you cannot fold your hand at showdown, why even offer the option to "muck" by the software ?

Because that's not what the rules state. After someone shows a hand, it's perfectly acceptable to muck your hand and admit defeat rather than show the hand.

In a cash game, it occasionally happens that a bluffer makes a bet, but when he's called, he'll muck his hand rather than show. The other player will win, but is required to show his hand. It was this type of situation where I witnessed a player ask to see the bluffer's hand, invoking the rule I stated. Note that in a tournament, whoever makes the last bet, is required to show first.

Of course, it sometimes happens that a caller will call with crap, just to see the bettor's hand and/or just to dump chips to the other player who is a friend.

But then this rule is handled incosistent. If only two hands are in the pot, and one is all-in, both hands are very often revealed (at least on TV). Why don't they get the chance to fold or muck their hands on the river ?

You're talking about tournament play, which has different rules. In a tournament, when there's an all-in and all action is completed, all hands are exposed before the remaining cards are drawn.

Sometimes, with an all-in and a call at the river, one player will show the winning hand, and the other will muck. And, despite the rules requiring the other player to show, that doesn't always happen unless someone says something. Note that this is a completely different rule than what I had quoted above. Often, someone WILL say that the hand needs to be shown.

Thanks for clarification. Obviously I'm not much of a poker player :)