How do you know an online casino is honest?

I'm trying to ask this question in an unloaded a manner as possible. I've no evidence, none at all, that any online casino cheats, nor am I imlpying any of them do.

The question is pretty simple. Any casino will make money because of the house advantage. Therefore any casino that runs an honest games (ie where the house plays by its own rules), doesn't need to cheat in order to make money, movies and myth to the contrary notwithstanding.

However, a little cheating could increase the HA. A bricks-and-mortar casino cannot cheat effectively because the events that determine the results of a game, like the flip of a card or the throw of the dice, are in plain view of the customers. Online, however, results are determined somehow, possibly by a random number algorhythm, with a simulation of the event being shown on-screen. If they wanted to cheat a little they could, and the customers would ahve no way of knowing.

Here's what I mean. Let's say that on every tenth turn of the wheel, the RNG result is scraped if it hits a number a player has a bet on, replacing it with an un-bet on number. That increases the HA and doesn't happen often enough to be obtrusive.

That's one reason I don't gamble online.

As far as I know, there is no way of knowing an online casino is honest. Without thousands and thousands of hands/spins as statistical evidence, your theory is perfectly valid.

However as soon as a casino is even suspected of dishonesty word gets round, and people wont go there, and without reputation and customers, there is nothing. So whilst in the short term cheating could be profitable, in the long term its not worth it.

most online casinos software is overseen by a gambling commission (which one escapes me) so should have a fair game. But like with anything, there are bad ones out there, research and protection are the best bets.

Both casinos, online, and brick and mortar types, can cheat you.

Though there is a gaming commission that exists, you don't know truly if the casino is taking face cards out of the deck to help its edge in blackjack unless you see the dealer open a new deck of cards and put it in the shoe.

Online casinos are located offshore and are not subject to the same gaming laws and regulations. They could easily change the program to win more than the expected house edge, at any game, and chalk it up to variance. That's why I won't play against an online casino. For the brick and mortar kind, I'll happily play and just trust that they aren't playing with the cards.

Visit Casino Meister among others if you want to get a feeling for how the industry works and polices itself. Mr. Wizard has a link to this site on his website and it's there for a good reason. It was the case in the early 2000's that a lot of nonsense took place, but now -- if there's an issue it is usually discovered pretty quickly. See the thread there on Jackpot Heaven.

--Dorothy

Who says land casinos don't cheat?? Change the blackjack payout to 6:5. Have a $3 craps game where the $3 place 6 only pays even money. Offer less than 9/6 JOB. Reinvent roulette and add 00 and call it "American Roulette" Like everything else in life; "Buyer Beware!"

Quote: DeMango

Who says land casinos don't cheat?? Change the blackjack payout to 6:5. Have a $3 craps game where the $3 place 6 only pays even money. Offer less than 9/6 JOB. Reinvent roulette and add 00 and call it "American Roulette" Like everything else in life; "Buyer Beware!"

None of what you mentioned for B&M is cheating. In every case the intelligent buyer can make a choice. The thought that 6/5 or 00-Roulette is cheating is absurd. Cheating means that the cards are not coming out with equal probability, or that the dealer is dealing seconds. It means that the slots have hacked computer chips. It means that the methamphetamine addicted Three Card Poker dealer is flashing his hole cards to his friend at third base. Cheating is a felony in B&M casinos, you'll get your 5-10 years.

Cheating in B&M is far more common than in online casinos. No doubt about it.

--Dorothy

Quote: DorothyGale

Cheating in B&M is far more common than in online casinos. No doubt about it.

Do you mean on a widespread basis by the casino, or collusion between employees and customers, or by customers?

Looking on the thread, I realized I probably couldn't tell if a casino were cheating at cards. Say they pull some tens out of a BJ shoe, I couldn't tell. But I remain cnofident cheating at roulette or craps, by the casino, is just not possible. Not as far as fixing the results.

In NJ, the CCC is on the floor and casinos are not allowed to operate without them. (When the govt shut down in 06, the casinos were closed.) It's my understanding they can and do audit games randomly and check things like the cards. I really don't see how or why the casinos would pull tens from their blackjack games. The bonus for them would be so severely outweighed by the penalty of being immediately blacklisted in the media and public as a cheat. Plus, people are usually sitting at games when they open; the cards are on the table, unshuffled until the first player steps up. They can see all the cards are there. So you are saying they take the tens during the course of a game? I just don't buy it. Life is about risk/reward. The reward is nowhere even close to the risk.

Quote: cclub79

In NJ, the CCC is on the floor and casinos are not allowed to operate without them. (When the govt shut down in 06, the casinos were closed.)

I don't find that reassuring at all. Any government inspector can be bribed or otherwise bought off.

The reason I'm sure most casinos don't cheat is they don't need to. If they play the games by their own rules, they win in the long run. As a second reason, it's very hard to cheat in most games without a large number of customers realizing it. IN B&M casinos, that is. Online they could do whatever they wanted, as long as they were subtle about it, and their customers probably wouldn't notice.

Casinos do well because people are greedy. Certainly, B&M casinos do not need to cheat on the slot machines and most casinos show the net win to be about 5-10% of the total amount gambled and is by far the greatest source of revenue. Table Game hold is about 20% meaning that they keep 20% (please correct me if i am wrong) what they take in. Even though the house advantage is 0.5 - 5%, you bet through your bankroll many many times.

There is one system which allows to confirm the randomness of the game’s results for each spin or card using SHA-256 algorithm. I first heard about it on casinomeister. I found only one description how it works here

In my opinion, it is origional idea.

Quote: boymimbo

Casinos do well because people are greedy.

So are casinos. And online casinos a lot more so than B&M ones.

The rules at most online casinos are stingier than at brick and mortar ones, despite the fact that online per-bet operating costs are somewhere between a thousand and a myriad times lower. A server that supports thousands of players only costs as much to purchase and operate as a single slot machine - modern slots cost up to $8,000-$11,000 per machine and over, the price of a good server, and both have a single specialist serving entire clusters. The server doesn't even take costly Strip space, fitting neatly inside a 19" rack in a Class C office in the middle of nowhere.

So just how far over the top is the greed of the average online casino operators? Well, there is a popular "make your own casino" piece of online casino software, which ensures its operators a fixed daily profit - that is right, if day's hold is below target, the software will make players lose until target hold is reached, and, needless to say, any big payout outcomes are never produced.

Quote: android

There is one system which allows to confirm the randomness of the game’s results for each spin or card using SHA-256 algorithm. I first heard about it on casinomeister. I found only one description how it works here http://www.betvoyager.com/games/randomness/

In my opinion, it is origional idea.

Yes that's the only online casino whose results you can really trust. No wonder they can't afford to offer any bonuses. Many other online casinos offer bonuses and rewards to the point that statistically they would have to make a loss. But they don't. So one explanation is that they might selectively tune the house edge up a little bit, which is a nicer expression for cheating.

As an active and informed online casino player I currently have four on-going investigations regarding my results at casinos where the long-term results are way off expectation by a large statistical margin. Wizard helped me with one of these investigations some time ago. Whether the data is ultimately strong enough to "prove" that cheating has taken place or whether it will be classified just as really really really bad luck will remain seen.

Quote: DorothyGale

Cheating in B&M is far more common than in online casinos. No doubt about it.

If you mean players cheating, you are correct. If you mean casinos cheating, you are incorrect.

I think the real question would be, not "how do you know an online casino is honest", but rather, "what on earth could you possibly do if you KNEW an online casino WAS dishonest?"

Imagine: you deposit $1000 in Sure Win Fantastic Bet Casino. You buy in to a blackjack game, and you lose twenty hands in a row. A popup message flashes on the screen: "SUCKER!!! Our game is rigged. You lose! And by the way, don't bother trying to withdraw the rest of your money--it's already gone. Have a nice day, LOSER!!!" followed by a smiley face and a jaunty little tune. What, exactly, could you do? You wouldn't even know where or how to begin (and even if you did know, it would be unlikely that you could get your money back by flying down to Sea Urchin Island and demanding to see The Big Mango).

Quote: mkl654321

I think the real question would be, not "how do you know an online casino is honest", but rather, "what on earth could you possibly do if you KNEW an online casino WAS dishonest?"

The vast majority of online casinos are immune from any kind of penalty for cheating. What stops them? Nothing. When Nevada formed the first gaming commission, they found that every game in every casino in Nevada was rigged. Gaffed roulette wheels, loaded dice, cheating BJ and poker dealers, slots that never paid off. They cheated because they could. Online casinos cheat because they can. Anybody who believes they don't is naive or in denial.

Quote: EvenBob

Online casinos cheat because they can. Anybody who believes they don't is naive or in denial.

You may be correct, but you may be incorrect. Forgetting the ethics, on just a purely business model, an online casino will make money by multiplying the house edge times the amount bet. If a cheating on line casino doubles its house edge illegally, but thus loses 80% of its business, it will not do as well as a casino that is fair but has higher bet volumes. On the simplest level, if I have roulette (0 and 00) and get 1 million in daily action, but switch to (0) and get 3 million in daily action, then giving the customer a better game will result in better profits for me.
On a practical note, our Wiz vouches for bodog. I would surmise he has done enough analysis to assure the fairness.

Quote: SOOPOO

If a cheating on line casino doubles its house edge illegally, but thus loses 80% of its business, it

And this has happened when? Its a fact that almost all online casinos operate under many different names. You can't really hurt them with word of mouth. Even Dublin.bet has at least 6 online casinos that I know of, all operated by the same mainframe computer. You'll find the people who don't think online casinos cheat also still believe in Santa Claus.

Bob, your simple-minded responses notwithstanding, I do believe that some online casinos cheat. I would also surmise that some do not, and that their success would be easily explainable in that the natural edge of a casino is enough to be successful. As in any customer service type business, word of mouth is important. The internet can magnify that effect. If on this forum someone said- JoesOnLineCasino cheats and here is the evidence... I would guess that you might avoid Joes. I am skeptical of all of them, but my skepticism is not enough for me to claim they ALL cheat. I would love to continue this post, but some fat guy in a red suit is stuck in my chimney and yelling for help.....

When people say online casinos cheat, they usually think that casino interfere with house edge of some game. But there's also other way to cheat. It's about making software streaky. The payoff is perfectly correct in the long run, but in the short run you get lots of unusually long streaks. Chartwell and Party software are famous for it.
The reason for this is to make people to play more. If you win you want to win more so you play more. If you loose you want to recoup your loses so you play more or you increase your stakes.
Software that makes these streaks is not completely random, meaning it's cheating.

Quote: hogar

Software that makes these streaks is not completely random, meaning it's cheating.

Thats the thing about random. You can never tell.

Quote: hogar

When people say online casinos cheat, they usually think that casino interfere with house edge of some game. But there's also other way to cheat. It's about making software streaky. The payoff is perfectly correct in the long run, but in the short run you get lots of unusually long streaks. Chartwell and Party software are famous for it.
The reason for this is to make people to play more. If you win you want to win more so you play more. If you loose you want to recoup your loses so you play more or you increase your stakes.
Software that makes these streaks is not completely random, meaning it's cheating.

This is also a possibility. I developed some analytical tools to measure the "streakiness". It involves calculating the frequencies of streaks of length 1,2,... and comparing this with expected streak length frequencies by using chi-square comparison. In case someone has sufficient play data, I could make an analysis on the data.

Quote: hogar

But there's also other way to cheat. It's about making software streaky. The payoff is perfectly correct in the long run, but in the short run you get lots of unusually long streaks. Chartwell and Party software are famous for it.

Too complicated. Do you have any confirmation that this is actually so? Because it's a pretty strange way to do stuff. Just hold back the biggest payouts or dump them on a shill account, and you're set. This is too psychological and subtle for cheating.

Quote: P90

Too complicated. Do you have any confirmation that this is actually so? Because it's a pretty strange way to do stuff. Just hold back the biggest payouts or dump them on a shill account, and you're set. This is too psychological and subtle for cheating.

Well it would screw over martingalers quite effectively to deliberately deal 15 losing outcomes in a row on a sweet spot so dunno if it's a completely impossible cheating scenario.

Quote: Jufo81

Well it would screw over martingalers quite effectively to deliberately deal 15 losing outcomes in a row on a sweet spot so dunno if it's a completely impossible cheating scenario.

Why screw martingalers over? They screw themselves over better than anyone possibly could already. Unlike most systems that are merely mathematically neutral, martingale's effect on most performance metrics is devastating to the player.

Quote: P90

Why screw over martingalers? They screw themselves over better than anyone possibly could already.

Hmm maybe because a martingaler can expect to get ahead in the short run? It's true that they screw themselves over in the long run but casinos still seem to be scared of them. For example in Betfair no-zero roulette the bet sizes were limited to prevent any sort of martingaling, so it looks like the casinos believe a little bit in those fallacies too.

That being said, no one has ever come up with a sufficient data that shows software to be streaky so at this point it's just speculation which may have no basis.

Quote: Jufo81

Hmm maybe because a martingaler can expect to get ahead in the short run? It's true that they screw themselves over in the long run but casinos still seem to be scared of them.

Sure they are... I know for a fact that some online casinos sponsor sites advertising martingale systems for "beating the casinos". They want you to martingale. In my first days of playing around with e-currency, I did some "e-jobs" involving this collaboration.

A martingaler has no more chance to get ahead even in the short run than a flat-bettor, if you calculate it as (win*probability) and not probability alone. Probability alone is higher, but such small amounts don't matter. What's important is that the martingaler's short run will be much shorter than anyone else's, as he will bankrupt himself much faster.

For instance, the risk of ruin in typical blackjack with a 64-bet bankroll is 10% in 1,000 hands, 1.8% in 500 hands, or 0.01% in 200 hands. A martingaler will run out of his 64 bets the first 6-loss streak he gets. The probability of a 6-loss streak even in fair coin flip is 1/64 (or 1/45 in blackjack), and a streak can begin on any hand.

So, it will take only 50 fair coin flips or 36 hands of blackjack to provide a 50% risk of ruin with martingale! A 10% risk of ruin is reached in a mere 10 hands, if my math is correct (1/45 on each streak, 5 potential streaks). A 1.8% chance will be exceeded in just 6 hands, since your first 6-hand sequence entails a 2.2% risk of ruin.
A bankroll that can last a normal player through thousands of hands, with a considerable chance of getting ahead, is almost guaranteed to be gone in an hour with martingale.

All this while, the martingaler doesn't stand to win any more than other bettors, since he limits himself to a single unit at a time. Even with an uninterrupted streak of wins (1 in 18 quintillion probability) it takes at least 64 bets to double a 64-bet bankroll with martingale; a point where the risk of ruin is 60% in coin flip or 74% in blackjack. Under just as ridiculous but slightly less lopsided conditions, perfect 1-0-1 (just what martingale is designed for), a martingaler needs 128 bets, a 86% risk or ruin in coin flip or 94% in blackjack.

Think about it for a moment: while per-bet house edge is unchanged, a martingaler's chance to double his bankroll is at best a mere 14% even in fair coin flip, as opposed to 50% for a flat-bettor. This is a mathematical disadvantage, voluntarily created house edge.
All martingale provides is just massively increased risk of ruin, without a corresponding increase in gain.

Quote:

For example in Betfair no-zero roulette the bet sizes were limited to prevent any sort of martingaling, so it looks like the casinos believe a little bit in those fallacies too.

I'm pretty sure the bet size is limited to reduce casino's risk of ruin due to a few massive wins.

Everything you say is probably true, but a greedy casino could still cheat a long losing streak sooner than expected on average, especially if the player is armored with a casino bonus.

What you do know for certain is that there is nothing to keep them honest.

Quote: dm

What you do know for certain is that there is nothing to keep them honest.

Except reputation maybe. Would someone like Ladbrokes take the chance of using rigged software?

Reputation is all there is. That, and the fact that the incentive to cheat is much lower for an online casino than a real one.

In Vegas, chips used to be as good as cash, not anymore, but you still stand a better than 99.9% chance of cashing out, and it's a straightforward process. Retrieving money from an online casino tends to be a long and rocky enough process that most players never go through it. Small amounts of money are regularly just left in the bank.
What's more, while a B&M casino has to constantly fight the stream of expenses in property maintenance and wages, an online casino has a tiny staff, in smaller ones just the proprietor, and costs as much to start and operate as a single slot machine. In a real casino, players bring hold minus expenses, in an online one even the smallest hold is still profit - the number of tables is virtually unlimited.

So it's not hard to expect an online casino to play fair. They have no real need to cheat. Some still cheat just because they can, but for a long-term player, the gains from cheating are relatively small and the potential gains from fair play large enough to make the latter a perfectly practical strategy. How can you tell which are playing fair, well, that is trickier, but they certainly don't all cheat.

Quote: P90

Reputation is all there is. That, and the fact that the incentive to cheat is much lower for an online casino than a real one.

In Vegas, chips used to be as good as cash, not anymore, but you still stand a better than 99.9% chance of cashing out, and it's a straightforward process. Retrieving money from an online casino tends to be a long and rocky enough process that most players never go through it. Small amounts of money are regularly just left in the bank.
What's more, while a B&M casino has to constantly fight the stream of expenses in property maintenance and wages, an online casino has a tiny staff, in smaller ones just the proprietor, and costs as much to start and operate as a single slot machine. In a real casino, players bring hold minus expenses, in an online one even the smallest hold is still profit - the number of tables is virtually unlimited.

So it's not hard to expect an online casino to play fair. They have no real need to cheat. Some still cheat just because they can, but for a long-term player, the gains from cheating are relatively small and the potential gains from fair play large enough to make the latter a perfectly practical strategy. How can you tell which are playing fair, well, that is trickier, but they certainly don't all cheat.

I guess making it so frustrating and difficult to withdraw YOUR money that some customers simply give up is not exactly dishonest,
but maybe that would cut down on the incentive to cheat you. Sure would help the bottom line.

Regarding Ladbrokes (one of the biggest and respectable bookies) I had an interesting situation with them. They had one game with a progressive jackpot element and I calculated that with certain playing strategy I should get a 130% return from the game assuming the odds are fair. The game rules also specifically stated that the odds are fair. Well, I played the game a lot and failed to meet the expected return by a long shot. I lost around £4000 playing the game. I queried this with Ladbrokes support and they assured me that the game really is completely fair and I've been just unlucky.

But what happened when I entered the game next time? They had changed it! It was difficult to notice at first but they had left some small marks that the game was not the same anymore as it used to be. And suddenly the odds of the game seemed to match true odds as well and obviously the 130% return was not achievable there anymore.

So when I queried the fairness of the game with Ladbrokes, I was lied to and then they sneakily changed the game to be like it should be. If someone as reputable as Ladbrokes gets away with stuff like this, then everyone else can too.

Quote: dm

I guess making it so frustrating and difficult to withdraw YOUR money that some customers simply give up is not exactly dishonest, but maybe that would cut down on the incentive to cheat you. Sure would help the bottom line.

Well, yeah, that is dishonest. Although there are rational reasons as well sometimes, due to online gambling being a legal gray area. However, it reduces the incentive to rig qRNGs. Most players in online casinos sink their deposit anyway, either through gambling it through, or not withdrawing it in time (and a small-time casino will close in a while - guess where the money goes then). So rigging the numbers in these cases is just greed going above and beyond.

Quote: SOOPOO

but some fat guy in a red suit is stuck in my chimney and yelling for help.....

He's been there for almost a month and you're just getting around to helping him NOW? I would think that by this time, he wouldn't be so fat any more...

INDEED!
Everyone else can too and they are.
One day palying Roulette at Ladbrokes,I won £1,100.This was at the weekend(On sunday in the very early hours in the morning).It seems to me that when you are winning,is because the staff are either taking a break or they have not started their shifts yet.
Now.I did cash out those most of those £1,100 and the following days that I came back to play Roulette:Lose,lose,lose,lose,lose.........Basically I lost £700 into two losing days.
Why?.Obviously THEY ARE MONITORING AND CONTROLLING THE CASINO GAMES.That's why.It makes me sick really.
Random?.
Look at this:
16,16,16,19,16,9,19

8,8,8,,28,18,8,28

And so..................
That's betting in more than 30 numbers.It seems to me,that somebody is sitting there and taking the piss on players.Then when I complain about these kind of results,they dare to say it is Ramdon.I dis ask to close my account at Ladbrokes and never came back since.I went at Live Help Chat(This was at 3:00am.What in the hell is somebody working at 3;00am at Live Help Chat?.RIGGING the Casino's Games,that's what they're doing.)to complain again about these strange strikes of numbers,and they keep saying it is RANDOM.
Similar results at 32 Red too.Another account closed,and others Online Casinos.Betfred(RIGGED),Coral(RIGGED),William Hill Club(This is the sicknest ever created rigged casino on the net)etc..........................
Everyone does cheat at Online Casinos' Games.This is what the reputable ones are doing:
You start playing,and they let you win up to £50,£100 and then,BANG!,the ODD arise and bye bye your whole Bankroll.
What's this?:
31,31,31,11,13,31
ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THIS HAS BEEN CHOSEN BY THE RANDOM NUMEBR GENERATOR?.I DO NOT THINK SO.This has been created by a SCUMBAG,who is monitoring and manipultaing The Roulette Game.
The same as this one:
2,35,32,2,35,32,6,32

Or

36,35,34,33

2,4,6,8,10

20,22,24,26,28
Well,all the time like this at ''All Slots Casino''.
This made me laugh so much that I did ask to close my Account straight away(This was at my first deposit) at ''All Slots Casino''.What a bunch of Cheaters,Liars,Scumbags.SOMEBODY IS SITTING INDEED STEALING YOUR MONEY!.
If you keep betting in your 30 numbers,there will appearing the numbers that are uncover!.Absolutelly RIGGED and STINKY!.
Do you actually believe that you are playing a fair Game at Online Casinos.Forget it because you are not.The Games at Online Casinos are being monitoring and manipulating by therse SCUMBAGS!.

Your post is not very clear. Are you saying you suspect some online casinos are slightly biased ???

I guess as long you stick with well known online casino's you'll be fine. Besides, every major casino has the license as a pdf on it's website. I would stick with casinos that are licensed and regulated in great Britain, Malta or Gibralta.

"Yes that's the only online casino whose results you can really trust. No wonder they can't afford to offer any bonuses. Many other online casinos offer bonuses and rewards to the point that statistically they would have to make a loss. But they don't. So one explanation is that they might selectively tune the house edge up a little bit, which is a nicer expression for cheating."
Jufo81 in reference to Android on page 2


I think youi're on to something. And I'll also toss in the two words EVERY on-line gambler should fear... "AFFILIATE PROGRAM". Go ahead, and click that tab for affiliates, and see whats up. Its no wonder several shady, and presumed reputable sites front-load losses. If an affiliate is hyping an online gaming site, caveat emptor reigns supreme. And NEVER-EVER use a "provided link" to access an online gaming site. After the dot com, remove all content, and press the enter button.

N&B