Counting SP21/Players Edge

Does anyone know if SP21/Players Edge is beatable without indices? And people with experience: Is SP21 worth learning. Is the heat less. Do you get more playing time? Or any other advice folks with experience would like to chime in on

I believe Spanish 21 is beatable without counting cards. Black Jack has become a trap for all players in catching backoffs, so playing at a Spanish 21 is a way to avoid the trap. I expect far less heat at a Spanish 21 table, like 99.5% less. Can't say I have experience at this. But if I have the choice to play BJ with odds of a potential backoff in the cards even without counting, I'll stick with Spanish 21. Of course winning the $5,000 Super Bonus is too much of a long shot to bank on getting, but the FOMO is clear to bet $25 or more if possible.
The Draft Kings website has a practice demo table to play Spanish 21 on. It gives me $2,000 to start with. Breaking that up into two $1,000 sessions and trying to win $2,000 ahead (to a $4K balance) would be my typical win goal this year. I've got more strategies that would take me to $25K, but that would likely take more than one sitting and this game won't save my balance.

Yes, you can play SP21 without indices.

Yes, you can play football without a jock.

The better question is: why would you even attempt it?

Sure it's a perfectly good game, very different than playing BJ and you need a big spread and a lot of playing indices (including for the bonus hands; 8-6 is not played like 10-4) but you can get away with that for a long time. Additional challenges are the paucity of games, and the crowd they tend to draw. The muggles love it.

Years back there used to be a lot more Spanish 21 tables, but someone put out this statement "Hey you know this is not a good game for the house." Then casino management, geniuses that they are. said "Well that settles it. Someone said this isn't a good game for the house. I guess that means this isn't a good game for the house" and pulled out most of the tables, replacing them with carnival games where dealers suffering with hands tired from dealing to players can be sent for a break.

If you decide to go that route logistics will be a bigger challenge, finding tables and open tables. It also draws a rough crowd in some areas, and because correct play will be so much different than what they believe to be proper BJ or Spanish 21 play, you will catch a lot of abuse. A SP21 table in AC or Philadelphia at 3 AM is not for the meek. I've been called every name in the book at those tables, as well as pushed, slapped, kicked, followed, threatened, menaced, and a voodoo curse pronounced upon me.

Where do i find these indices and how many are there (core amount like an illustrious18)? I know of Katrina Walker's book. Is this still relevant and does she show indices in her book? And all in all is it worth the study and work to know this game or does traveling and counting BJ (no other Ap moves) suffice? Is traveling and counting even worth it these days?

Apparently, AutomaticMonkey is the expert here. He said that generally SP21 is less countable than Blackjack is. You are not supposed to consider SP21 until you have mastered Blackjack.

Nevertheless, I posted the following to another forum. Similar to Blackjack, there are corresponding strategy deviations in Spanish 21 too. Instead of calling them Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 in Blackjack, we call them Ilustre 17 and Fabuloso 3 in Spanish 21.

Define worthwhile? Is it worthwhile to spend $400 on a plane, $500 on hotels, and another $200 on a car to chase a half-point advantage with a $2000 bankroll? How about with a $200,000 BR?
When I lived in Las Vegas, an establishment gave me $125 for walking in the door. I took advantage of it once a week. A casino in Laughlin gave me the same offer, but it was an almost four-hour round trip and would cost $20 in gas. Was it worth spending an afternoon collecting $125?
Not really, although I did it a few times while determining that.
I think Walker's book is the best intro to SP21, but you have to have access to the games with better rules.

I'd have to drive 150-200 miles round trip to find a $5 or $10 Spanish 21 table while BJ is at $15 or $25 nearby. It's the difference between a $200, a $400, a $600 or a $1,000 buy-in. I've got to be ready to lose like 10 buy-ins in a row before a lucky streak hits good. It'd be nice if everything took off on the first buy-in with no looking back though.

Gracias!

I thought I was the only one. Its funny i do surveillance work at a casino and i was hired to catch counters. I swear it seems like 80% of the guys i catch end up catching a hot shoe within the first two shoes. And im thinking how come i gotta grind through hours of ups and downs, thinking of ways i can get out of bad shoes, changing tables, etc when these guys that come into my casino hit great variance in the first 10 minutes

I think it has to do with they play at empty tables or near empty tables. Tables get too choppy when they are full. They also have a big bet spread, so those hundred dollar chips add up on a winning streak. Many of the videos of card counters I watch have the players kicked out in 5 to 30 minutes either because they've been flyered from another casino or they change their bets too sharply and draw the ire of the pit or surveillance. The dealer almost has no say in what goes down.

I personally think casinos don't like the way card counters bet because they consider it problem gambling rather than an advantage play because these players will follow high betting strategies no matter how bad the cards go against them.

The way you speak makes me think you are a casino employee. Why do you post a lot of card counter videos?

I'm no casino employee. I'm trying to learn the card counter ways. I have no intention of becoming a card counter. I also hope to avoid being flagged as a card counter if I win in a hot shoe so if I see what they do I can avoid that. Every video seems to have at least one backoff involved so that is excruciatingly entertaining. It makes casinos look bad and makes me re-evaluate keeping any chips or TITO vouchers at home when coming back the next day could lead to immediate expulsion at the door. Your local bank wouldn't trespass you at the door, why would a casino?

That’s fair. I actually like these videos. Keep the good work.

From Reddit:
If you play a Spanish 21 table that's a 6 deck shoe, it's effectively as though 4 tens per deck have already been dealt... so a starting running count of -24... so a TC of -4. That's the reason for the change in TC.

Start at -4 OR count aces as -2. Not both!
**************************************************
It will take awhile for a shoe to turn positive with such a disadvantage; and it makes for more losing hands to made up with bonus payouts, and tied paying BJ's, and player 21's always wins, and more liberal rules for double downs. A card counter will see far fewer positive counts in Spanish 21 than in regular BJ and won't want to waste their time on the game. If they can't raise their bets above minimum, what's the point?

Why not make it simpler for everyone by counting 9s as -1 and all others the same as those in HiLo?

I haven't seen that mentioned. But I will say I have not gotten involved in this topic in the past because others have far more experience with the history of the literature on the subject and I've had none of it. This Reddit post is all I've had and just for today.

Quote: aceside

Why not make it simpler for everyone by counting 9s as -1 and all others the same as those in HiLo?
link to original post

Because simpler is not always better! In that case, simpler is not even a little better.

But I'm not going to be providing any more information about the game, due to the provenance and apparent intent of this thread. All of my loyalty is to my side of the table.

Insults are not permitted on this forum so I won't be uttering any, and instead will offer a compliment: Among the men on my side of the table are many with a great deal of education, intelligence, and lifetime accomplishment.

I’ve asked this question a few times but haven’t received an answer. I heard that Spanish 21 insurance pays 5:2 in Australia, not 2:1. Is this true?

Quote: aceside

Apparently, AutomaticMonkey is the expert here. He said that generally SP21 is less countable than Blackjack is. You are not supposed to consider SP21 until you have mastered Blackjack.

Nevertheless, I posted the following to another forum. Similar to Blackjack, there are corresponding strategy deviations in Spanish 21 too. Instead of calling them Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 in Blackjack, we call them Ilustre 17 and Fabuloso 3 in Spanish 21.
link to original post

You said sp21 is "beatable" without counting.
Maybe we are speaking a different language? When I say something is "beatable" that essentially means that we can have a advantage +EV on the game.
... Is that what you meant?

Sometimes I post to entertain or say hello to my buddies, but I have a lot to say about the game of Spanish 21. This game is stupid, in several respects especially in America. Let me just list a few:

1. It’s stupid to introduce the dealer peeking for Blackjack in SP 21. This is not Blackjack 21, where dealer gets one natural every 21 hands. This is SP 21, where dealer gets one in every 24 hands. Casinos should get rid of the peeking devices in these SP 21 tables.

2. It’s stupid to offer insurance 2:1 on a Spanish 21 table. It’s a waste of time. Not many players are that unintelligent to take this offer. In Australia, I heard that their SP 21 insurance pays 5:2. They are way smarter!

Overall, I think this game does not have a good future.

Quote: aceside

2. It’s stupid to offer insurance 2:1 on a Spanish 21 table. It’s a waste of time. Not many players are that unintelligent to take this offer. In Australia, I heard that their SP 21 insurance pays 5:2. They are way smarter!

Players Edge 21 addresses that by paying insurance 5:1 on a dealer's suited blackjack.

Quote: aceside

Overall, I think this game does not have a good future.
link to original post

I mean the game is thirty years old, so it's not like it's this new upstart game. I know it's not popular in Vegas, but here in Washington, it's more popular than blackjack. It's easily the most popular table game in the state, maybe second to baccarat.

Quote: billryan

Define worthwhile? Is it worthwhile to spend $400 on a plane, $500 on hotels, and another $200 on a car to chase a half-point advantage with a $2000 bankroll? How about with a $200,000 BR?
When I lived in Las Vegas, an establishment gave me $125 for walking in the door. I took advantage of it once a week. A casino in Laughlin gave me the same offer, but it was an almost four-hour round trip and would cost $20 in gas. Was it worth spending an afternoon collecting $125?
Not really, although I did it a few times while determining that.
I think Walker's book is the best intro to SP21, but you have to have access to the games with better rules.
link to original post

My wife or I made weekly trips from LV to Laughlin to collect free play. From my house it was a 90 minute drive, spent about 15 minutes in the casino, and a 90 minute drive home. I would guess we did this close to 200 times. Obviously the mount of Free Play was the determining factor on whether one of us would make the drive. our number was around $400. If over $400 we would almost always go, but if under $400 it was a debate.

Quote: Deucekies

Quote: aceside

2. It’s stupid to offer insurance 2:1 on a Spanish 21 table. It’s a waste of time. Not many players are that unintelligent to take this offer. In Australia, I heard that their SP 21 insurance pays 5:2. They are way smarter!

Players Edge 21 addresses that by paying insurance 5:1 on a dealer's suited blackjack.

Quote: aceside

Overall, I think this game does not have a good future.
link to original post

I mean the game is thirty years old, so it's not like it's this new upstart game. I know it's not popular in Vegas, but here in Washington, it's more popular than blackjack. It's easily the most popular table game in the state, maybe second to baccarat.
link to original post

Your forum handle gives me new ideas for renovating the game of 21. Instead of removing all 10s from a deck of cards when shifting from Blackjack 21 to Spanish 21, we make all deuces soft to facilitate the shifting.

Specifically, a deuce can be counted as either 2 or 12. Two deuces can be counted as 4, 14, or 24. I also thought up a new name for the game, Panda 21.

Will this new game of “Panda 21” have a market there?

Quote: aceside

** snip **
Your forum handle gives me new ideas for renovating the game of 21. Instead of removing all 10s from a deck of cards when shifting from Blackjack 21 to Spanish 21, we make all deuces soft to facilitate the shifting.

Specifically, a deuce can be counted as either 2 or 12. Two deuces can be counted as 4, 14, or 24. I also thought up a new name for the game, Panda 21.

Will this new game of “Panda 21” have a market there?
link to original post

Wow, that's an original idea - never heard that one before.

It seems to me that 'soft deuces" would help the dealer and player equally (or close to equally.) So, I question whether it could be viewed as an alternative to removing all the 10s from the deck.

I suspect that "splitting deuces" might need to be treated somewhat like splitting Aces - i.e., no Hitting a split deuce after a card is drawn to it. Otherwise "Splitting deuces" would be a hefty advantage to the player with two 'chances' to make a 17-21 for each split deuce hand. Remember, the dealer cannot split a 2-2.

Quote: gordonm888

I suspect that "splitting deuces" might need to be treated somewhat like splitting Aces - i.e., no Hitting a split deuce after a card is drawn to it.

Except that in Spanish, you can hit a split Ace, or even double.

Quote: aceside

I also thought up a new name for the game, Panda 21.

Will this new game of “Panda 21” have a market there?
link to original post

If you put Match the Dealer on it, probably. 😂