Is there really anything new out there?

I was listening to the most recent Gambling With an Edge and I heard Richard Munchkin make what I consider to be a dubious statement: that there are AP's doing things that are not well known and are not being written about on the Internet. But is that really true? It seems that every advantage play I have ever seen employed one or more of the following:

1) Games/Promotions/slot clubs that simply pay too much (I'll include loss rebates/mailers and their ilk in promotions)
2) Hole carding
3) Shuffle tracking/Ace Sequencing
4) Player collusion
5) Counting various card games/side bets
6) Edge sorting
7) Mechanical bias (roulette etc)

None of these things are new, and they are all routinely talked about on the Internet. I know that no one is going to give away specific methods for specific games. But, if what Richard is saying is true, what other general AP methods are there not listed above?

All of the methods above could apply to many different games. At one point people only thought card counters were AP's in blackjack, not realizing you could also attack side bets. Then that came to light. Similarly people thought you could only edge sort this 1 game, then realized it was applicable to more than 1 game. My interpretation is while any AP might be technically in the previously existing buckets above, they can apply the skill to a new game that's come out or in some new way to make a new form of AP that other's haven't yet figured out or has not yet come to light.

At one point in our history people didn't even know what card counting was. Trust me when I say people are out there doing things you've never heard of. Just because you haven't heard of it or thought of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Think about the first time you heard of some of those buckets above. You were probably like me: "Oh, I didn't realize you could do that!"

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't denigrating existing methods or saying that I know everything. I was just wondering what types of other (general) categories of AP techniques there are, since people are saying that other methods do exist. There are only so many (legal) things one can do in a casino to get an advantage, and I think most of them are well known.

Quote: cwazy

...There are only so many (legal) things one can do in a casino to get an advantage, and I think most of them are well known.

That's just it. Anything new that's discovered is usually very tight lipped. And should be for good reason.

Quote: cwazy

There are only so many (legal) things one can do in a casino to get an advantage, and I think most of them are well known.

There's a HUGE difference between "most of them" and "all of them." Many smart players spend a lot of their efforts trying to exploit that difference. Your term "(legal)" isn't black and white. By a long shot.

I'm not a table game player. But sometimes after taping a show, Richard and I will go out for a meal or drink with our guest. Just by sitting there with my mouth shut and listening, I'll sometimes hear Richard and the guest talk about a feature of a play that I certainly had not heard of before --- and sometimes wasn't on the list provided at the start of this thread. Obviously, if I want to keep Richard as a co-host (and I very much want to do that), I can't be blabbing those techniques around.

Even with items on the list (like counting side bets), it's often not clear how to do that. There are some very gifted computer guys trying to work out what the best count is for various new games --- combining accuracy and simplicity. Just knowing that a game is potentially countable is a whole lot different than actually having a count that works.

and there is the whole area of "getting away with it." In his "Beyond Numbers" blog James has been sharing some of his "how we do it" techniques. Depending on how knowledgeable you are, some of what he writes is common sense and some is eye opening. Were I a table games player, I'd devour his words over and over again. Many of the best APs consider James Grosjean the GOAT.

(And yes we've tried to get James on the show several times. He and Richard are good friends, and if Richard can't make it happen, it can't be done. But we'll keep trying.)

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

That's just it. Anything new that's discovered is usually very tight lipped. And should be for good reason.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

In a perfect AP world the internet and books wouldn't exist.