Starting a card counting team

I am part of a group of four close friends who attended law school together. We study together, we hang out together, we even support each other through insanely challenging times. And we all have absurd student loans. Since we know it will be hard to pay these - and other debts - off the normal way, I floated a suggestion to one of my more sensible friends - card counting.

She's on board but she also is a poker enthusiast (and married to a bigger poker enthusiast) so we expect to learn that as well.

Being attorneys as well as good friends, we want to make sure we're as careful with this as possible. We also want to avoid being marked as APs for as long as possible. So here are my thoughts.

Phase 1: After the first Bar exam this July, we begin. We learn the game in a group setting, much the way we prepared for exams. We get good at it. While we're doing this, we pool money and form an LLC with a bank account. We create a partnership agreement among the four of us with scheduled payouts. This means blackjack classes - and poker nights.

Phase 2: We start small. Lower-stakes games to learn how it's done. Don't go for the throat yet but just gain some confidence.

Phase 3: We move into the high-limit rooms. We take weekends as often as possible and start winning. We go into the poker room and crush it.

I'm sure there's more to this - in terms of teams, I'll need some people who maybe aren't good at counting but are good at being distracting in order to take the heat off us.

Anyone done this in a team? I'm trying to make sure to protect our assets - and friendship. And to include the spouses - I'm thinking of making them limited partners.

Quote: hwccdealer

I am part of a group of four close friends who attended law school together. We study together, we hang out together, we even support each other through insanely challenging times. And we all have absurd student loans. Since we know it will be hard to pay these - and other debts - off the normal way, I floated a suggestion to one of my more sensible friends - card counting.

She's on board but she also is a poker enthusiast (and married to a bigger poker enthusiast) so we expect to learn that as well.

Being attorneys as well as good friends, we want to make sure we're as careful with this as possible. We also want to avoid being marked as APs for as long as possible. So here are my thoughts.

Phase 1: After the first Bar exam this July, we begin. We learn the game in a group setting, much the way we prepared for exams. We get good at it. While we're doing this, we pool money and form an LLC with a bank account. We create a partnership agreement among the four of us with scheduled payouts. This means blackjack classes - and poker nights.

Phase 2: We start small. Lower-stakes games to learn how it's done. Don't go for the throat yet but just gain some confidence.

Phase 3: We move into the high-limit rooms. We take weekends as often as possible and start winning. We go into the poker room and crush it.

I'm sure there's more to this - in terms of teams, I'll need some people who maybe aren't good at counting but are good at being distracting in order to take the heat off us.

Anyone done this in a team? I'm trying to make sure to protect our assets - and friendship. And to include the spouses - I'm thinking of making them limited partners.

Wouldn't it be better to use the education you paid so much for and get a job earning between $84,000 - $145,000, depending on the size of the firm you work for. Chances are slim and none that your plan will work out as you think it will.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Wouldn't it be better to use the education you paid so much for and get a job earning between $84,000 - $145,000, depending on the size of the firm you work for. Chances are slim and none that your plan will work out as you think it will.


ZCore13

You misunderstand me. We fully intend to use that education. However, when we get the chance, we intend to make extra money on top of this. We don't plan to be full-time card counters. We just need something additional to pay off our debts. Lawyer starting salaries right now are in the toilet - the real money comes down the road.

I know one lawyer who named his yacht the now or never, since he bought it prior to buying a home. Go for it.

Just remember, the MIT team "practiced" in Connecticut and darn near lost their shirts. Also your study group will crumble under illusions as to who is carrying whom. counting , signaling, etc. it all takes skill and luck. the one who wants to play poker will be unhappy. the one who made fifteen grand mainly due to luck will want more than the guy who made five grand due to very hard work.

the guy who leaves after three months will want participation in the ongoing fund he helped create.

My advice would be to forget about card counting blackjack. Instead, buy a copy of Advanced Advantage Play and study the techniques in that book.

Quote: Wizard

My advice would be to forget about card counting blackjack. Instead, buy a copy of Advanced Advantage Play and study the techniques in that book.

Or, alternatively, follow the threads started by ssho88 (but thanks for the plug, Mike!).

Quote: hwccdealer

You misunderstand me. We fully intend to use that education. However, when we get the chance, we intend to make extra money on top of this. We don't plan to be full-time card counters. We just need something additional to pay off our debts. Lawyer starting salaries right now are in the toilet - the real money comes down the road.

You guys are already in debt, are you going to get another loan to play blackjack? Anything can happen, you can start off with a losing streak. Who knows how long it will take to pay off this loan....and then of course your student loans.

Even if you can make money, have you considered tips, travel, and taxes? After all that, your hourly wage ain't so good. Might be better to just be a lawyer and make money the old fashioned way

it's not a good idea. i think you should try to link up with an already established card counting team. your hourly will probably be higher with little/no downside.

There's card counting, and then there's team play. While built on the same principals, they are vastly different games. As others already pointed out there's a minefield of issues that comes from playing on/with a team... One that we're all "assuming" is that you're all close enough friends that no one would steal from each other. After all, if a player makes $16,000 and his wife's birthday is in a week, maybe he made $15,500 and she gets a nice present? How would you even track that? Answer: you can't. You must have 100% trust, which will be strained and tested when the team goes through a run of poor variance.

Do you know what limits you'd be playing? Do you know what your big bet is? Do you know what your spread would be? Do you know what your EV per hour per game is? Do you know what your standard deviations and variance is going to be? Can you use all this information to actually have a big enough bankroll to get your RoR down to < 1%?

There's a LOT more to card counting (and team play) than just learning how to count and play as a team. You MUST know all of the math and metrics behind it to be truly successful and maximize your EV.

You want to make money? All 4 of you take your starting "dump" salaries of near $80-$90k/year. Live modestly and each save $10-$20k a year. Every year buy as large a property as you can in an upcoming area. Rent out the properties to pay the mortgage themselves. In 20-30 years, sell them all and reap the profits and retire early... Or there's about a billion other ways to make extra money... but if there's one thing I've learned it takes money to make money.

Well at least you won't have legal fees if you should get backroomed.

Quote: hwccdealer

...Since we know it will be hard to pay these - and other debts - off the normal way, I floated a suggestion to one of my more sensible friends - card counting.

Phase 2: We start small. Lower-stakes games to learn how it's done. Don't go for the throat yet but just gain some confidence.

Phase 3: We move into the high-limit rooms. We take weekends as often as possible and start winning. We go into the poker room and crush it.

I'm sure there's more to this - in terms of teams

Bankroll seems the missing facet.
You need to start out with say $50,000 where you won't blink an eye at losing $500 on a hand 10 times in a row and won't cry or feel pain when you are down $20,000 after a month of perfect play, and then down another $30,000 a week later.

Team play at poker is called cheating. As a bunch of lawyers, I can't imagine you'll have any moral conflict with that.

Quote: hwccdealer

You misunderstand me. We fully intend to use that education. However, when we get the chance, we intend to make extra money on top of this. We don't plan to be full-time card counters. We just need something additional to pay off our debts. Lawyer starting salaries right now are in the toilet - the real money comes down the road.

Quote: hwccdealer

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We don't plan to be full-time card counters.

Involving a female with a group of guys, strike one (-; (Actually, I'm not necessarily kidding)


IMO to be successful you need to eat, drink and breath card counting to be successful, at least until you're so good at it it becomes 2nd nature.

I know there are a few "good stories" of teams that started up like you're planning on doing. Usually YOU only hear about the successful ones. There's way more failures than successes. Even people who are really smart, and already know what they are doing fail. It takes the perfect storm for everything to come together in order to be successful.


From what I have seen(At least for the successful teams), it's usually individuals who are already really into AP, guys who meet along the way in various ways. Its not a forced or planned situation, it just happens naturally. They end up doing a few things together and it grows from there. Remember they already have a passion for AP and are successfully doing it, each person usually already has something to offer including knowledge and skill.

It takes a certain kind of person to be successful. There's some really smart people who can't even grasp the concept, let alone actually be good at it.
It's not just math and strategy it's an art. You can't just teach someone to be a good artists no matter how brilliant they are.

I can't stress this enough. MOST PEOPLE no matter how smart and well versed they are can't AP. I have known smart guys who have been around some of the best AP's for years. They had plenty off opportunity, but they just don't have the ability to AP.


There's a guy on the forum who has experience with a fairly talented well organized team. Hopefully he will give you some advice and perhaps PM you. I think you'll get some good information from him and just how difficult it really is.

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Poker.
Don't let TV fool you. Even good players are losing players. Many people have backers, side deals and sponsorship's.

It's definitely not a team sport. That is way harder to learn than BJ to learn, especially with the current poker conditions. I don't care who's teaching you. It's hard to teach something that deals with so much human interaction and emotion. There's no simple mathematical formula. Skill levels vary drastically.

That's probably a worst Idea than BJ. At least in BJ you can tell if you technically have an advantage.

Poker is a grind, you will make more with blackjack. A lot of free lunches at 1-2 or 1-3, some at 2-5 (worth 17-45 an hour if you are in the top 5%). Can't see a lawyer wasting the time.
Beyond that forget about ipoker unless you dedicate your life to it. I would seriously consider what teliot is trying to tell you. Blackjack would require a bankroll that would pay off all of your student loans in order to get the returns you seem to be looking for.
Good luck in your pursuits.

Like Axel said.....it should really be natural, like a group of already-APs teaming together.

Someone really needs to know what they're doing. It's difficult to do it on your own as it is, let alone starting up and trying to teach/train with others who don't know what they're doing. I think the learning curve is pretty steep when it comes to AP.

Is team play really that viable anymore?

Focus on building your careers as lawyers; this team notion will just get in the way of what is really important.

Yeah, you've got to pay your dues: the first years you'll be floundering.

As you probably have noticed, the old school business model for most lawyers is dead; no longer is the Big Firm the only goal worth seeking a slot in.

Small groups or sole practitioners is the new norm: don't fear going solo, or with one or two other attorneys; hopefully one can mentor you, tell you how things really work.

See if you can go "paperless" and have a "virtual office" to keep down overhead.

Get your name known in the community; join organizations like the Lions; if you are religious, get involved in church; avoid becoming a wastrel at the bars (your rep will suffer); the name of the game is client development. Focus on this!

It's all about getting clients, and of course determining what area of law you want to practice in.

Explore different fields.

Consider P.I., as there is great money in it if you have the right cases (see above: client development).

Get into court and try cases (criminal and family law) as soon as you can: got to break that cherry and get experience.

Gamble recreationally.

Quote: Romes

There's card counting, and then there's team play. While built on the same principals, they are vastly different games. As others already pointed out there's a minefield of issues that comes from playing on/with a team... One that we're all "assuming" is that you're all close enough friends that no one would steal from each other. After all, if a player makes $16,000 and his wife's birthday is in a week, maybe he made $15,500 and she gets a nice present? How would you even track that? Answer: you can't. You must have 100% trust, which will be strained and tested when the team goes through a run of poor variance.

Do you know what limits you'd be playing? Do you know what your big bet is? Do you know what your spread would be? Do you know what your EV per hour per game is? Do you know what your standard deviations and variance is going to be? Can you use all this information to actually have a big enough bankroll to get your RoR down to < 1%?

There's a LOT more to card counting (and team play) than just learning how to count and play as a team. You MUST know all of the math and metrics behind it to be truly successful and maximize your EV.

You want to make money? All 4 of you take your starting "dump" salaries of near $80-$90k/year. Live modestly and each save $10-$20k a year. Every year buy as large a property as you can in an upcoming area. Rent out the properties to pay the mortgage themselves. In 20-30 years, sell them all and reap the profits and retire early... Or there's about a billion other ways to make extra money... but if there's one thing I've learned it takes money to make money.

Real estate sounds like a great idea, ive researched it every now and then. As romes said throwing extra cash into property is something that pays off historically. Of course this is the ultimate long term ap. I plan to buy and never sell, unless it was a really good deal or i could cash out and pay off the mortgages on the other properties. I like cashflow over appreciation.

I would make sure everyone understands that advantage play does not mean you will win every time, only in the long run will things balance out. At first i was quite frustrated when i played fpdw because i kept losing. Of course if i kept records i would find that i was winning 0.76% of my bet per hand. We recently did a play which had immense fluctuation and seemed like we were pouring money down an endless well, only to find out after i did the math on our total coin over the house edge of the game we were losing a few % over expectation, and thats only because we didnt hit some premium hands. Of course the back end made the play worthwhile but the game itself was a loser.

Max had it right about poker.( I would love to know what the top 5% make at 2/5 on average. I would love to see a reality show/documentary where they follow around a top 2/5 player for 6 months and film his play)

You delicate your life to it and are always leaning. You can learn but without tons of actual play and practice good luck. You could play it for years and still suck. It doesn't matter if you're a math genius, rocket scientist, top physiologist, Doctor, lawyer it all can be meaningless when it comes to poker. Sure things like that help in some aspects. A math guy would learn the math aspects quickly. Oops Math is probably the least important part of poker.

If money matters to you, or you have any normal human emotions, the emotional beating you take when losing hand after hand, when you have the best of it can be mentally draining. Poker has got to be one of the hardest games to play and actually have a worthwhile advantage.
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Even if you have what it takes to Gamble for a living its still a long shot you'll be successful enough to make it worthwhile. Starting a fresh team with unskilled players = Hitting a 6 team parlay.
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I can't say for sure but It seems to me that other than the hard core dedicated BJ'ers, while you're blindly thinking about jumping in to BJ, some of the experienced BJ counters are trying to get out of BJ and into other things.

Quote: Romes

There's card counting, and then there's team play. While built on the same principals, they are vastly different games. As others already pointed out there's a minefield of issues that comes from playing on/with a team... One that we're all "assuming" is that you're all close enough friends that no one would steal from each other. After all, if a player makes $16,000 and his wife's birthday is in a week, maybe he made $15,500 and she gets a nice present? How would you even track that? Answer: you can't. You must have 100% trust, which will be strained and tested when the team goes through a run of poor variance.

Do you know what limits you'd be playing? Do you know what your big bet is? Do you know what your spread would be? Do you know what your EV per hour per game is? Do you know what your standard deviations and variance is going to be? Can you use all this information to actually have a big enough bankroll to get your RoR down to < 1%?

There's a LOT more to card counting (and team play) than just learning how to count and play as a team. You MUST know all of the math and metrics behind it to be truly successful and maximize your EV.

You want to make money? All 4 of you take your starting "dump" salaries of near $80-$90k/year. Live modestly and each save $10-$20k a year. Every year buy as large a property as you can in an upcoming area. Rent out the properties to pay the mortgage themselves. In 20-30 years, sell them all and reap the profits and retire early... Or there's about a billion other ways to make extra money... but if there's one thing I've learned it takes money to make money.

I've been buying properties for decades and was flipping houses long before the term was coined. Other than my card counting days and military service, I've never worked a day in my life. The satisfaction and independence is incredible and something that I never take for granted. I'm so glad that I don't have to play blackjack to pay the bills. That's the way uh-huh, uh-huh I like it. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

I'll reiterate what others have said, on poker in particular.

Poker is my main income source and, outside of a few geniuses and a few cheaters, it's a path for losers, not lawyers. In other words, if you never find a well paying, fulfilling job at which to apply your aptitudes, poker is a nice way to escape a life of dead end jobs. At least for a while. But it's not really a good way to make a fortune.

IF you are good, you can realistically expect to make $10-12/hr at 1/2 NL, plus some comps. It depends where you live and on the rake. At 2/5 you might get up to $25. But understand that a $10,000 downswing at 2/5 is not all that unusual.

People who do it full time (or are just naturally brilliant) can earn significantly more. But that's not counting the time spent away from the tables, playing with equity calculators, reading articles, watching videos, or spending an hour thinking through one hand.

My conclusion would be this. If you really enjoy poker, it can be a great hobby that makes money for you, where most hobbies cost you money. If you like poker and skiing equally, sure, why not make $12/hr at poker instead of spending $30/hr skiing? Over your life, it will add up to a lot of money. I've known a lot of young people via other online endeavors (not as sinister as it sounds) and I've often encouraged them to take up poker, rather than piss away their time with video games.

But if it's going to be work for you, and watching videos of pros talking through their hands sounds like a bore, the work probably just doesn't pay enough.

Also, realize you might not have an aptitude for it. It requires a lot of emotional control and, if the money matters to you, can be very stressful. It's also one of those things where intelligence doesn't always mean you'll "get it." Some very smart people just don't think the right way to be good at poker. Though any smart person, who has emotional control, should be able to make a modest hourly rate just by learning basic strategies, being patient and rarely tilting. Also, I would say a lawyer brain is more likely to "get it" than other types.

I very strongly encourage you to seek out the mental game work of Tommy Angelo. It is tremendously valuable in poker and can be learned more quickly than the tactical stuff. Plus, it is beneficial away from poker. There are many free podcasts on which he has been a guest. I would start by listening to those.

How much do you know about AP? What about management? I'll share my experience with being on a team (all my opinion...and I know some others had similar opinions)...

The team started off well -- a main manager and a co manager. The co manager had great experience in card counting and team play. The main manager didn't have much experience with AP, although he had a lot of experience being a manager in other businesses. Anyway, the team started off small with a few people (4 or 5?) then gradually grew, I think maxed out around 14 or 16 players. Almost all the players who joined the team had experience playing BJ and counting (except for 2 or 3 who learned and then joined the team, having never played previously).

The few who had never played solo before were in this very weird position, I think. They knew how to play (strategy, counting, betting, etc.), but they didn't know how to act, what regular procedures were for casino employees versus heat, etc. Some were naive to a degree where they didn't quite realize some things you can do and other things you can't do, ie: interact with teammates while on/near casino property, unless both are at same table and it's "regular player banter" kind of stuff. Or if they did something like "take the dealer's bust card".......as AP's, we know the best thing to do is probably give a "Ah damn! I had a hunch" or "Sorry guys, my fault!"....but we shouldn't say something like, "Me hitting or standing has no affect on the odds of you winning, could'a happened the other way" or "there's no flow to the cards". But with time, such things are learned of what you should do or shouldn't do in those situations.

But our biggest problem, IMO, which lead to the team falling apart is I think the main manager thought he knew more about AP than he really did. When we were first starting out, everything was going good....then he started changing stuff around which really didn't make sense from an AP perspective, but would be more in line with what a gambler/ploppy might do. For example, we started this new policy where basically we would change our big bets (what the big players would be betting when they wonged into a shoe) depending on how our trip has been. If trip was losing, we'd bet one amount. If it was positive up to like +$5K we'd bet a larger amount. If we were at +$10K or higher, we'd bet a different amount. Problem is, of course, we'd be giving up a huge amount of EV by betting so small...even when our bankroll would allow us to make those much bigger bets (like 4x the smallest bet). Basically a "ride the winning streak" policy was introduced. Thankfully this was at the very end of the team's life, right before it was terminated.

Management was good at managing people, money, financials, etc. But management was not good when it came to introducing policies regarding the actual play the team did.

Quote: Rigondeaux

My conclusion would be this. If you really enjoy poker, it can be a great hobby that makes money for you, where most hobbies cost you money. If you like poker and skiing equally, sure, why not make $12/hr at poker instead of spending $30/hr skiing? Over your life, it will add up to a lot of money.

Good stuff.

Quote: hwccdealer

And we all have absurd student loans.

So... how are you going to get money to play?

How much money do you think you need to play?

How much do you want to make?


It's great to say "Hey friends, let's go gamble and make some money!", but they build casinos on the fact that it's easier to lose than it is to win.

Quote: Rigondeaux

I'll reiterate what others have said, on poker in particular.

Poker is my main income source and, outside of a few geniuses and a few cheaters, it's a path for losers, not lawyers. In other words, if you never find a well paying, fulfilling job at which to apply your aptitudes, poker is a nice way to escape a life of dead end jobs. At least for a while. But it's not really a good way to make a fortune.

IF you are good, you can realistically expect to make $10-12/hr at 1/2 NL, plus some comps. It depends where you live and on the rake. At 2/5 you might get up to $25. But understand that a $10,000 downswing at 2/5 is not all that unusual.

People who do it full time (or are just naturally brilliant) can earn significantly more. But that's not counting the time spent away from the tables, playing with equity calculators, reading articles, watching videos, or spending an hour thinking through one hand.

My conclusion would be this. If you really enjoy poker, it can be a great hobby that makes money for you, where most hobbies cost you money. If you like poker and skiing equally, sure, why not make $12/hr at poker instead of spending $30/hr skiing? Over your life, it will add up to a lot of money. I've known a lot of young people via other online endeavors (not as sinister as it sounds) and I've often encouraged them to take up poker, rather than piss away their time with video games.

But if it's going to be work for you, and watching videos of pros talking through their hands sounds like a bore, the work probably just doesn't pay enough.

Also, realize you might not have an aptitude for it. It requires a lot of emotional control and, if the money matters to you, can be very stressful. It's also one of those things where intelligence doesn't always mean you'll "get it." Some very smart people just don't think the right way to be good at poker. Though any smart person, who has emotional control, should be able to make a modest hourly rate just by learning basic strategies, being patient and rarely tilting. Also, I would say a lawyer brain is more likely to "get it" than other types.

I very strongly encourage you to seek out the mental game work of Tommy Angelo. It is tremendously valuable in poker and can be learned more quickly than the tactical stuff. Plus, it is beneficial away from poker. There are many free podcasts on which he has been a guest. I would start by listening to those.

Very good post.

Quote: AxelWolf

I have known smart guys who have been around some of the best AP's for years. They had plenty off opportunity, but they just don't have the ability to AP.

Ability shmability. It takes knowledge and patience.
Practice makes perfect.

Quote: RS

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What rs wrote is something to consider. Somebody who is smart, dedicated, and honest can fall wayside to voodoo theory. His team managers were probably extremely successful in business or the corporate world but not seasoned in gambling, or advantage play.

Basically nobody knows anything about anyone until you see how they handle themselves at the worst possible situation. I would be cautious about mixing business and pleasure as well.

Quote: EvenBob

Ability shmability. It takes knowledge and patience.
Practice makes perfect.

* Perfect practice makes perfect.

Quote: EvenBob

Ability shmability. It takes knowledge and .
Practice makes perfect.

That's like saying with knowledge patience and practice someone can learn to be a good comedian, Doctor, Lawyer, writer, musician, singer, or artist. It doesn't work that way.


Card counting takes more than knowledge and patients. Same with poker.

People can take poker lessons from the best, read books, read magazines, forums and learn everything. enough to be good enough to teach others. They can practice poker for 20 years plus, and still not be good enough to win. You can see 100's of guy's like this in Vegas. Every poker room has a few old timers who have been playing everyday for years, and they are lifetime losers.

Successful card counting takes more than just playing the right strategy .

Sometimes people just can't put together all the pieces needed

There's a fair amount of people who are very smart significantly educated who want to AP. They can do all the math, explain some AP concepts, find information (There's such thing as the internet and the gamblers book store) and they have the means. Yet they can't do it.

There's guys who came from next to nothing(even the streets) without money, education or a gambling background who become successful.

There's some very smart guys out there, who against all math, logic and everyone and their bother explaining why betting systems can't and don't work, yet they still believe in them.

Look at the "craps AP's". 11+ years of practice, patience and knowledge. There's legitimate AP that can actually make money but they stick to -EV craps.

I told a DI about a good craps play that was +EV (actually 2 plays). One excuse was, I don't like that table.

Quote: hwccdealer

I am part of a group of four close friends who attended law school together. We study together, we hang out together, we even support each other through insanely challenging times. And we all have absurd student loans. Since we know it will be hard to pay these - and other debts - off the normal way, I floated a suggestion to one of my more sensible friends - card counting.

I would bankroll MIT / CIT / UC / Standford / Ivy League engineers or computer programmers / accountants, high school / college / university math teachers, but not lawyers or medical doctors, and alike. I would pay lawyers to do my game patents, so they could pay off the student loans.

First, that traditional call-in approach Blackjack team has been 'done to death'. It's been around for half a century (see Al Francisco teams and Tommy Hyland teams) long before the MIT teams. It's just been done to death and isn't hard for any decent casino personnel to spot. You need to come up with something new and creative.

Second, I love this idea of "hey lets start a blackjack team" with no experience in playing blackjack or running a team. Playing blackjack at a high (professional) level is a little more than reading a book or watching a movie or videos and heading out with some money. There is one hell of a lot more to it than just learning the basic mathematics of card counting. That's third grade stuff. But learning how to be able to apply it and be allowed to apply even the simplest techniques in actual casino environment for any reasonable time takes a great deal of experience. I am not going to go as far as equate it to medical or law school, but it is closer to those lines of an extended educational process of education/knowledge/practice/experience than that what is being presented here. This idea of "hey we are lawyers so we have the brains to count cards" is laughable.

Third legal issue. A couple people mentioned saving legal costs that the normal AP/Card counters playing at that level incur. I am sure we all know the line about the lawyer who represents himself or the doctor who treats himself. Legal representation in cases involving casino abuse and patron rights is very specific field. I am not hiring a general practitioner right out of medical school to treat my cancer. :/

And finally, also on the legal front. Do a group of up and coming lawyers really want the kind of issues that professional players deal with including arrests and law suits on their records like that. Isn't that going to be detrimental to your careers in the long run.

I think you guys better reconsider this whole plan.

Quote: kewlj

First, that traditional call-in approach Blackjack team has been 'done to death'. It's been around for half a century (see Al Francisco teams and Tommy Hyland teams) long before the MIT teams. It's just been done to death and isn't hard for any decent casino personnel to spot. You need to come up with something new and creative.

Second, I love this idea of "hey lets start a blackjack team" with no experience in playing blackjack or running a team. Playing blackjack at a high (professional) level is a little more than reading a book or watching a movie or videos and heading out with some money. There is one hell of a lot more to it than just learning the basic mathematics of card counting. That's third grade stuff. But learning how to be able to apply it and be allowed to apply even the simplest techniques in actual casino environment for any reasonable time takes a great deal of experience. I am not going to go as far as equate it to medical or law school, but it is closer to those lines of an extended educational process of education/knowledge/practice/experience than that what is being presented here. This idea of "hey we are lawyers so we have the brains to count cards" is laughable.

Third legal issue. A couple people mentioned saving legal costs that the normal AP/Card counters playing at that level incur. I am sure we all know the line about the lawyer who represents himself or the doctor who treats himself. Legal representation in cases involving casino abuse and patron rights is very specific field. I am not hiring a general practitioner right out of medical school to treat my cancer. :/

And finally, also on the legal front. Do a group of up and coming lawyers really want the kind of issues that professional players deal with including arrests and law suits on their records like that. Isn't that going to be detrimental to your careers in the long run.

I think you guys better reconsider this whole plan.

But he floated the idea to his more REASONABLE friends.

The Church Team did it and none of them
knew how to play. They just decided to
do it and did it. Quite successfully too.

They recruited right from their own church,
and brought some outsiders in later. They
made hundreds of thousands. It's really
not brain surgery..

Quote: EvenBob

The Church Team did it and none of them
knew how to play. They just decided to
do it and did it. Quite successfully too.

They recruited right from their own church,
and brought some outsiders in later. They
made hundreds of thousands. It's really
not brain surgery..

That was 10-15 years ago. It's a different world now.

Quote: surrender88s

That was 10-15 years ago. It's a different world now.

They quit playing 4 years ago, it's not that
different. What I'm saying is people who
are doing something always like to make
it look harder than it really is.

Quote: EvenBob

They quit playing 4 years ago, it's not that different.

I take that to mean that conditions now aren't all that different from when they decided it wasn't worth it to them to play anymore.


Everyone has to make their own decision on what is worthwhile or not.

Quote: Dieter

I take that to mean that conditions now aren't all that different from when they decided it wasn't worth it to them to play anymore.
.

They stopped because it was getting old,
not because it didn't work anymore or was
getting too difficult. They moved on, like
most team players do eventually. They
made 3.2 mil in 5 years.

EB:

Any thoughts on a Roulette Counting Team ?
Just curious.
(And perhaps being a bit of a curmudgeon...)
But regardless, HAPPY 4th of JULY to your and yours.

Quote: JohnnyQ

EB:

Any thoughts on a Roulette Counting Team ?

I thought that's what I was doing.

No wonder why CZR is in BANKRUPTCY ( at least a 1/3rd of it ).

EvenBob, I think the 'Church team' is just about the worst example you could throw out there. Sure they made some money, but they were very, very inefficient for they very reason that they didn't know what they were doing or have any idea of how to properly run a team. They ended up winning and holding far less than they should have, far less than you would expect from their amount and level of play. If they were being graded as a business, they would receive a failing grade.

If I was going to hold up a team, as an example it would be the Hyland team. They have been at it a long time and have really gotten it down professionally.

Interestingly one of the very things that was supposed to be the strength of the Church team, Trust, they had major problems with just like any other team. The trust issue is always huge with these teams, no matter what they do.

I will admit, I have a bit of a negative view of the 'Church Team'. I really have this gut feeling that I have never been able to shake that they went into the project with more intent on making a movie than a successful blackjack team. They thought there was this great 'conflict' subject line balancing religion and gambling.

Quote: EvenBob

The Church Team did it and none of them
knew how to play. They just decided to
do it and did it. Quite successfully too.

They recruited right from their own church,
and brought some outsiders in later. They
made hundreds of thousands. It's really
not brain surgery..

This is coming all from things you read on the internet. It must be all reliable and true. No one said it was impossible(miracles happen), it's just unlikely. People beat the odds every day, People even win lotteries.

Assuming everything you read about them is true (Its not). But lets assume .They may have had the perfect mix of unique people. If enough people try it, eventually the stars line up(or god blesses you) and something good things happens. It's not brain surgery, that's the point, its totally different than anything else. Being incredibility smart and talented in one thing doesn't mean anything when it comes to successful gambling. I'm sure there's brain surgeons who have tried and failed. There's actually a few very successful AP doctors.

I'm sure there a few lawyers out there who have access to some of the top well known AP's, incredible extremely valuable information and a interest in AP. But actually learning and doings is another story.

IMO this is why we have some dark-siders. Don't believe the BS excuses they come up with, why they choose not to AP.

Quote: kewlj

EvenBob, I think the 'Church team' is just about the worst example you could throw out there.

They formed a team, they made money.
Every team is different, but making money
is the goal. That they did. That you would
do it differently has nothing to do with it.
Rembrandt painted differently than Matisse,
yet they're both famous.

In fact, the Church Team shows how easy
it is. They did it is less than perfectly and still
made a heck of a lot of money.

Anyone with luck and a small BR can make something, just look at yourselves, LOL to the MAX!