Is Ratholing Illegal?
It is like lying to the casino. Don't get me wrong, I would do it but not if I could get arrested for it.
Any insight into this matter would be helpful.
blacks, everybody does it, it's expected by the
pit. They do it because they don't want to
accidentally bet them. So no, ratholing is
not illegal. Men put them in their pocket,
women in their purse. It's yawningly
common.
The dealer is not 'ratholing'.
The woman who opens her purse is "banking" the chips for later use and to avoid inadvertent premature use.
Nothing is being done slyly to craftily or in a sneaky manner.
At a craps table there are usually two chip rows... and most players do keep higher value chips close to them or even use a shirt pocket to segregate chips, not hide them.
Quote: BlackjackKingI know that the act of ratholing itself is not illegal, but if a casino is offering a rebate for losses (say $100) and you rathole a part of that (say $20) would that be illegal?
It is like lying to the casino. Don't get me wrong, I would do it but not if I could get arrested for it.
Any insight into this matter would be helpful.
You bring up an interesting question. Yes, casual putting some chips away wouldn't be your concern. But what if a player bought in for $500 and they were eligible for a $100 rebate once they lost the $500. They surreptitiously rathole $50, lose the remaining $450, and seek the rebate. What say you now? Yes, multiple buy-ins and other complications muddy the calculation. But in the blatant example laid out, what then?
I very much doubt that a casino would try to have you arrested. The worst they would do is 86 you. You've already lost money to receive the rebate, just not as much as you should. But just to be on the safe side, if you were the person in the example I gave above, don't walk up to the pit boss and say, "I've lost $500 and would like to receive the $100 rebate." Say instead, "I inderstand you have a loss rebate." Let them give it to you.
A casino is trying to take money from you. You are trying to take money from a casino. I don't think they would want to arrest you if you surreptitiously rathole and then try to receive a rebate. Call it a professional courtesy.
No one can prove you ratholed surreptitiously to make it look like you reached a certain loss amount to receive a rebate. Unless you tell them that.
Quote: onenickelmiracleNo way Jose Canseco. The casino makes the calculation of win or loss and it is up to them to make sure their figures are correct. It can not be illegal to put your own property you control in your pocket.
I think the figures are usually correct because it's easier for the floor than to have to explain discrepancies. To that end, missing chips are often "charged" to the guy with the most chips, the guy who refuses to color up or the guy suspected of ratholing. That's why caution is advised when doing this. You don't want to defeat the whole purpose which, to counters, is to minimize wins.
Quote: BlackjackKingI know that the act of ratholing itself is not illegal, but if a casino is offering a rebate for losses (say $100) and you rathole a part of that (say $20) would that be illegal?
I don't think it rises to the level that Gaming could arrest you, but I think it is ethical cheating. If the tables were turned and I ran a casino and a player ratholed chips for the purpose of lying about the size of a loss, then I would make clear he wouldn't be welcome back.
Quote: WizardI don't think it rises to the level that Gaming could arrest you, but I think it is ethical cheating. If the tables were turned and I ran a casino and a player ratholed chips for the purpose of lying about the size of a loss, then I would make clear he wouldn't be welcome back.
Ethics is a matter of degree. If you find a $1 chip on the floor of a Nevada casino, by law, it belongs to the house. So you should turn it in. If a blackjack dealer mistakenly pushes your losing hand, then you should tell the dealer to collect your losing wager. If a dealer mistakenly pays your wager at blackjack when you have 18 and they have 19, ethically you should tell them to take back what they paid you along with your losing wager.
In each of these examples, would you?
Quote: GreasyjohnEthics is a matter of degree...
You make a good point. I agree that these things are matters of degree. However, I view rat-holing chips for purposes of getting more out of a loss rebate as the greater sin compared to your examples because it involves overtly lying for the purpose of getting a larger rebate than you're entitled to. I would compare it to tricking a cashier to give you too much change.
By the way, once I was walking through the Tropicana and a guard dropped a rack of chips in the pit. Most landed in the pit area but a few rolled into the aisle. Players started to scramble for them. A $5 red chip rolled right to my foot. I held it up, so that nobody could accuse me of pocketing it, and I anticipated a guard would take it back. However, another player ripped it from my hand.
ZCore13
Rat holing (chips): When the player secretly sneaks a portion of their chips into purse or pocket in order to hide from the pit crew how much they're winning (or to inflate their losses).
Quote: Zcore13Ratholing happens just about every hour of every day. If I'm in the pit and you are ratholing to try and deceive me you will end up with less comps or a missing rating card for the session.
When I worked for a certain Strip property the floor staff sometimes brought up this issue and expressed their annoyance with players who rathole chips for purposes of making it look like they lost more than they really did. It wouldn't surprise me if the floor staff either depressed the rating for said players or made note of their behavior in the comments.
Quote: WizardWhen I worked for a certain Strip property the floor staff sometimes brought up this issue and expressed their annoyance with players who rathole chips for purposes of making it look like they lost more than they really did. It wouldn't surprise me if the floor staff either depressed the rating for said players or made note of their behavior in the comments.
One of the key elements of rat holing is to do it when the pit isn't looking. And make the move as undetectable as possible and innocent at the same time.
Quote: GreasyjohnOne of the key elements of rat holing is to do it when the pit isn't looking. And make the move as undetectable as possible.
I good Supervisor knows what's missing from the rack and has a good idea who is taking them. By thinking you are getting one over on them you may be losing in the long run... You just don't know it.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I good Supervisor knows what's missing from the rack and has a good idea who is taking them. By thinking you are getting one over on them you may be losing in the long run... You just don't know it.
ZCore13
I hear you. That's why if I'm the only player betting green I don't do it.
If a few players come and go from a table that helps. All things should taken into consideration.
Back when I played limits where it was worth ratholing, I would take breaks, go to my room and take my chips with me, and come back with a few less, or just pick up a few chips once in a while and stick em in my pocket (in a non-suspicious way, I did it like anybody who was "banking" chips would do.
If you try to do something slick (and trust me, it's not slick) like dropping them down the back of your shirt, or palming a chip and acting like you're getting chapstick from your pocket or something, you're going to get yourself backed off for whatever play you're really doing.
Quote: sc15Ratholing suspiciously will cause you problems if you're an AP, because that kind of behavior will make them suspicious and will cause them to look into what else you're possibly doing.
Back when I played limits where it was worth ratholing, I would take breaks, go to my room and take my chips with me, and come back with a few less, or just pick up a few chips once in a while and stick em in my pocket (in a non-suspicious way, I did it like anybody who was "banking" chips would do.
If you try to do something slick (and trust me, it's not slick) like dropping them down the back of your shirt, or palming a chip and acting like you're getting chapstick from your pocket or something, you're going to get yourself backed off for whatever play you're really doing.
Then you're saying that you shouldn't rat hole? There are a lot of counters that would disagree. It's only detectable if you do it while they're watching. If they review a tape they could pick it up, but they'll see you're counting and you're done anyway.
It's a trade off. Win less, play longer. Win more, play over. They're going to get you eventually, it's a matter of how long it takes and what you do to delay it.
(As I clarified in an earlier post, rat holing, by definition, is pocketing chips surreptitiously, not casually pocketing chips.)
Quote: GreasyjohnThen you're saying that you shouldn't rat hole? There are a lot of counters that would disagree. It's only detectable if you do it while they're watching. If they review a tape they could pick it up, but they'll see you're counting and you're done anyway.
It's a trade off. Win less, play longer. Win more, play over. They're going to get you eventually, it's a matter of how long it takes and what you do to delay it.
(As I clarified in an earlier post, rat holing, by definition, is pocketing chips surreptitiously, not casually pocketing chips.)
That is completely wrong. I know how much in chips is in the tray and in front of players at all times. If you are ratholing chips, you only think you are being tricky. Don't kid yourself if you think you are pulling off anything if you are playing somewhere that has a decent staff.
ZCore13
Quote: GreasyjohnThen you're saying that you shouldn't rat hole? There are a lot of counters that would disagree. It's only detectable if you do it while they're watching. If they review a tape they could pick it up, but they'll see you're counting and you're done anyway.
It's a trade off. Win less, play longer. Win more, play over. They're going to get you eventually, it's a matter of how long it takes and what you do to delay it.
(As I clarified in an earlier post, rat holing, by definition, is pocketing chips surreptitiously, not casually pocketing chips.)
No, I said you shouldn't rathole suspiciously by trying to use some slick move to do it.
All you need to do is "bank" some chips while the pit has his back turned like any ploppy would. Doing crap like palming chips is unnecessary and if someone sees you do it that's going to cause you problems.
Also, don't rathole chips that only you are playing. If you're the only person at the table playing yellow it's going to be obvious who has them when the #s don't add up.
Quote: Zcore13That is completely wrong. I know how much in chips is in the tray and in front of players at all times. If you are ratholing chips, you only think you are being tricky. Don't kid yourself if you think you are pulling off anything if you are playing somewhere that has a decent staff.
ZCore13
Do you work as a dealer or pit boss? I appreciate your opinion. It seems it would be hard to remember if 4 greens or so was missing from the tray with several players' green stacks going up and down, players leaving the table, several buy-ins, etc. Yes, right after a count you could follow the chips of a few betters but this would get very hard to keep up with unless you were giving it a lot of attention. Looking at stacks or piles of chips can't be determined with accuracy unless they're cut and stacked. I'll reinterate, if they're not watching when you rat hole they can't see the move. I'm not saying they can't spot palming, but they certainly can't see what they're not looking at. I hope other experienced counters weigh in on this. If I'm still getting RFB they probably haven't noticed yet.
Quote: GreasyjohnDo you work as a dealer or pit boss? .
LOL! He does wear a suit and hang out
all day in the casino and act like the
boss. It's just a ruse..
A good Rat holer Is way better than a good Supervisor. There's various reasons for this. 1) Motivation 2) you have way to much going on 3) A GOOD rat holer knows his limits and how much he can get away with. 4) Supervisors are working at a casino and not playing professionally for a reason.Quote: Zcore13I good Supervisor knows what's missing from the rack and has a good idea who is taking them. By thinking you are getting one over on them you may be losing in the long run... You just don't know it.
ZCore13
It's good for the good Rat holers that supervisors are catching the bad ones, it's probably giving them an ego that makes them an easy target.
Lots of Guys are winning in the long run... You just don't know it.
PS good RH's oftentimes check and verify what's what with their losses and rating.
Quote: AxelWolf4) Supervisors are working at a casino and not playing professionally for a reason.
Yes, probably because they make $50,000 a year plus 3 weeks of paid time off plus free health, dental and visions coverage, plus matching 401k. Seems like enough reason to me to not pretend they are making a living from playing blackjack.
It's good that you are so confident though. That's the way it should be with anything someone does.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Yes, probably because they make $50,000 a year plus 3 weeks of paid time off plus free health, dental and visions coverage, plus matching 401k. Seems like enough reason to me to not pretend they are making a living from playing blackjack.
Why do you keep running off the ones who are pretending to make a living playing blackjack? After all, if they are just pretenders?
Quote: mickeycrimmWhy do you keep running off the ones who are pretending to make a living playing blackjack? After all, if they are just pretenders?
Who says I run anyone off? I love people who think they can count. The 21 movie was one of the best things to happen for Blackjack pits in many years. We need another one. For every 1 real counter that might be able to have a small advantage once in a while there are a thousand who think they can but can't.
ZCore13
Quote: WizardI don't think it rises to the level that Gaming could arrest you, but I think it is ethical cheating. If the tables were turned and I ran a casino and a player ratholed chips for the purpose of lying about the size of a loss, then I would make clear he wouldn't be welcome back.
Do you feel the same way about card pullers on slots? I openly admit that I do this at times to make my wins look like losses when I know they give discretionary comps.
Quote: Zcore13Who says I run anyone off. I love people who think they can count. The 21 movie was one of the best things to happen for Blackjack pits in many years. We need another one. For every 1 real counter that might be able to have a small advantage once in a while there are a thousand who think they can but can't.
ZCore13
Zcore, i think you should recommend to your casino bosses that they buy up all the copies of Beyond Counting and Exhibit CAA and hand them out at the casino. It would be a great promotion. I would even come to stand in line and get copies.
Quote: DRichZcore, i think you should recommend to your casino bosses that they buy up all the copies of Beyond Counting and Exhibit CAA and hand them out at the casino. It would be a great promotion. I would even come to stand in line and get copies.
That would be awesome, but a little too spendy. Maybe the notes on them being sold on ebay. On a side note, another fun thing is to see someone trying to count and seeing in their face they are really concentrating. Then go up to them and talk to them. Game over. :) But anyway... the thread is about ratholing. I don't like people that do that to try and deceive me, so they have to pay the price if I catch them. That doesn't mean they get the boot though.
ZCore13
them stay in your hand without being detected.
Easy to stash them that way. In roulette it
doesn't matter, everybody does it with greens
and blacks anyway. Everybody.
I like to go up to a table with chips in my pocket
from last time I was there. When the pit finally sees
me, and asks the dealer what I started with, the
dealer never knows because I did nothing to
involve him.
That statement would lead us to believe....Quote: Zcore13. For every 1 real counter that might be able to have a small advantage once in a while there are a thousand who think they can but can't.
ZCore13
It makes zero sense for any casino to run off any counters at all.
I have seen casinos run off many wannabes based on nothing more than bet spread or suspicions. Someone could be using speed count and get run off.
Why run anyone off who isn't betting thousands?
As others pointed out, casinos should encourage counting with a Counters wanted sign.
People should never be afraid to protect and keep what is rightfully theirs. This includes civil rights, and money. Unfortunately many in today's society have become sheepish, waiting to be led by others, and told what to think and do.
When playing in the casino, put the value chips in your pocket as you get them. You are not in any way obligate to disclose to the casino how many of them you have won, after the fact. If they ask you how many of them you have, feel free to lie to them, or tell them anything that you would like to say. It's ok to simply say, "Not enough." If they ask for your $25 tokens, so that they can color them into $100s, feel free to say, "NO, I think I like the pretty green color more than the black ones."
There's no reason to help them keep better track of your money, spending habbits, etc. If you believe otherwise, then feel free to add them, as well as the IRS, to your Facebook page, and then click "LIKE" and "SHARE" on their pages as well.
-Keyser
Quote: KeyserThe very idea that "ratholing" could be considered wrong or illegal says a great deal about today's culture, and how easy it is to prey upon them.
People should never be afraid to protect and keep what is rightfully theirs. This includes civil rights, and money. Unfortunately many in today's society have become sheepish, waiting to be led by others, and told what to think and do.
When playing in the casino, put the value chips in your pocket as you get them. You are not in any way obligate to disclose to the casino how many of them you have won, after the fact. If they ask you how many of them you have, feel free to lie to them, or tell them anything that you would like to say. It's ok to simply say, "Not enough." If they ask for your $25 tokens, so that they can color them into $100s, feel free to say, "NO, I think I like the pretty green color more than the black ones."
There's no reason to help them keep better track of your money, spending habbits, etc. If you believe otherwise, then feel free to add them, as well as the IRS, to your Facebook page, and then click "LIKE" and "SHARE" on their pages as well.
-Keyser
Yeah, pissing off the pit when you're an APer is a great idea.
Best thing to do if they ask you how many you got or ask you for the greens to color them up is to comply, and know for next time that you shouldn't try to rathole that much because IT GOT NOTICED last time.
What pisses off the pit is counting cards for hours while never or barely tipping the dealers, while calling out, "Winner winner chicken dinner." (I'm sure the El Cortez loves this and has absolutely know idea that people are counting cards.)
People regularly put their value chips directly into their pockets. Anyone that says that you must leave them on the table is full of it.
By the way, when you get 86ed, it's not the lowly pit that makes that decision. It's surveillance and the shift manager.
Quote: AxelWolfThat statement would lead us to believe....
It makes zero sense for any casino to run off any counters at all.
I have seen casinos run off many wannabes based on nothing more than bet spread or suspicions. Someone could be using speed count and get run off.
Why run anyone off who isn't betting thousands?
As others pointed out, casinos should encourage counting with a Counters wanted sign.
It's been my experience that most casino consultants are saying exactly that. As was said in another thread recently, (paraphrasing), the casinos are wasting dollars trying to save pennies with the security and procedures they deploy against counters. The casinos aren't listening to the consultants for the most part.
Even if I was restricted to just card counting, give me a DD game dealt 80% of the way and a 5K table max and I can make over a million a year.
Yeah, cutting pen on all the tables to combat card counting is silly, but back offs are necessary. You can't just tolerate people sitting there spreading min to max.
Quote: beachbumbabsIt's been my experience that most casino consultants are saying exactly that. As was said in another thread recently, (paraphrasing), the casinos are wasting dollars trying to save pennies with the security and procedures they deploy against counters. The casinos aren't listening to the consultants for the most part.
The truth is a moderately good counter can hurt the bottom line if you get enough of them. A good team or well bankrolled individuals can spank the casinos Z was probably talking about the average joe who just likes to pretend, someone who spent 1hr reading about it, gets board and starts playing roulette or whatever.
PS you should take up counting yourself.
It's obviously something within your skill set.
Quote: AxelWolfThe truth is a moderately good counter can hurt the bottom line if you get enough of them. A good team or well bankrolled individuals can spank the casinos Z was probably talking about the average joe who just likes to pretend, someone who spent 1hr reading about it, gets board and starts playing roulette or whatever.
PS you should take up counting yourself.
It's obviously something within your skill set.
Yes. 99% of players either don't care about the count or aren't capable of mastering it.
If you set up your pit to accommodate the 99% and train your staff to look for the 1%, it's really not that hard.
Normal players keep a very small spread. A $5 player will rarely go higher than $20-$25. A $25 player rarely extends past $100 or so. Why any casino can't easily build in protections to stop professional players from hurting them I'll never know. On lower level tables dealers usually call out "cheques play" or "black action". Why not something like "10x spread" or "bet increase" anytime leaves their normal range?
Soon enough, most of this will be irrelevant at bigger casinos. Sensors under the table will keep track of the count and bets players are making and will alert Staff to increases in bets that correlate to the count.
ZCore13
Quote: beachbumbabsIt's been my experience that most casino consultants are saying exactly that. As was said in another thread recently, (paraphrasing), the casinos are wasting dollars trying to save pennies with the security and procedures they deploy against counters. The casinos aren't listening to the consultants for the most part.
It depends on how many hours that you play and how much you win in that casino. Take Barona as an example. Max Rubin is the consultant there and they know what they are doing. They have the Blackjack Hall of Frame and host the annual Blackjack Ball. I spread 1 to 8 in green chips ($200 Max). I was not welcome there after several hundred hours play.
Quote: beachbumbabsThe casinos aren't listening to the consultants for the most part.
It rubs them the wrong way to let
somebody play who might have the
edge on them, even if it's only a
suspicion. The casino absolutely believes
they have a right to every dime in
your pocket and bank account when
you walk in the door. They're the spider
who spun the web that drew you in,
and they must have as much as they
can possibly get from you. They would
rather spend $2 to thwart somebody
winning $1 by what they consider 'cheating'.
Quote: Zcore13Yes. 99% of players either don't care about the count or aren't capable of mastering it.
If you set up your pit to accommodate the 99% and train your staff to look for the 1%, it's really not that hard.
Normal players keep a very small spread. A $5 player will rarely go higher than $20-$25. A $25 player rarely extends past $100 or so. Why any casino can't easily build in protections to stop professional players from hurting them I'll never know. On lower level tables dealers usually call out "cheques play" or "black action". Why not something like "10x spread" or "bet increase" anytime leaves their normal range?
Soon enough, most of this will be irrelevant at bigger casinos. Sensors under the table will keep track of the count and bets players are making and will alert Staff to increases in bets that correlate to the count.
ZCore13
Because "cheques play" sounds better than a dealer calling out "10x spread." You don't want the dealers calling out something that DIRECTLY says we don't like the way you play. "Cheques play" is fairly neutral.
Also "black/purple/yellow" action also serves another purpose. If someone bets a big chip by mistake it'll make them notice and pull it back. Kind of like how if you show up at a table and put a yellow in the betting circle the dealer will still ask you if you want change for that, and they won't just start dealing the cards immediately.
Good then they will start relying on a sensor and become relaxed (possibly add better rules). Meanwhile guys will be backcounting, coming in big off the top or finding other ways to circumvent the sensor.Quote: Zcore13Yes. 99% of players either don't care about the count or aren't capable of mastering it.
If you set up your pit to accommodate the 99% and train your staff to look for the 1%, it's really not that hard.
Normal players keep a very small spread. A $5 player will rarely go higher than $20-$25. A $25 player rarely extends past $100 or so. Why any casino can't easily build in protections to stop professional players from hurting them I'll never know. On lower level tables dealers usually call out "cheques play" or "black action". Why not something like "10x spread" or "bet increase" anytime leaves their normal range?
Soon enough, most of this will be irrelevant at bigger casinos. Sensors under the table will keep track of the count and bets players are making and will alert Staff to increases in bets that correlate to the count.
ZCore13
Quote: sc15Because "cheques play" sounds better than a dealer calling out "10x spread."
Maybe they can be more explicit. Calling out "10x spread in green at TC 5". About couple years ago, I was in an Indian casino and I jumped my bet to 5x in green. The dealer was mumbling, " you bet that much. Why?" Then, he talked to the Floor next to him: "Card counter, what do you think?". The Floor did not say anything and it was dead-silent for couple seconds. Then I flat-bet few hands and left the casino after that.
Quote: sc15Because "cheques play" sounds better than a dealer calling out "10x spread." You don't want the dealers calling out something that DIRECTLY says we don't like the way you play. "Cheques play" is fairly neutral.
Also "black/purple/yellow" action also serves another purpose. If someone bets a big chip by mistake it'll make them notice and pull it back. Kind of like how if you show up at a table and put a yellow in the betting circle the dealer will still ask you if you want change for that, and they won't just start dealing the cards immediately.
It will be quite the day if I EVER am in a position to put a yellow chip in a betting circle without wanting change. I don't think it will come.
Quote: beachbumbabsIt will be quite the day if I EVER am in a position to put a yellow chip in a betting circle without wanting change. I don't think it will come.
Nor shall it, if you don't have a good edge.
Quote: EvenBobNor shall it, if you don't have a good edge.
It's not my goal to be a high roller. A long roller, yes. I just like the cards. Queens, queens for everyone.
Quote: AxelWolfI have seen casinos run off many wannabes based on nothing more than bet spread or suspicions. Someone could be using speed count and get run off.
This encourages the wannabees to continue.
"I know I'm good - I've got them scared enough to back me off!"
