If I ran a casino...(Split thread)

The other day my friend was playing tiles, and was the only player in the entire pit. There were 2 floormen watching the game, purely out of boredom. My friend got dealt a 3-4. The dealer had tit, tit, teen, and mooy. She instantly set the hand as 2 and pair, and graded the hand as a push.

Now, according to Dan, unless my friend stops the game and says "wait a second, you have to set that hand 7-9 and take my bet," he is "scum." Never mind that my friend has not memorized tile house ways and had no idea an error had been made until I told him a day later. Never mind that two floormen, a dealer, and surveillance all missed it. Never mind that my friend does not work for the casino and they don't give him a paycheck every two weeks to supervise their Asian-game dealers.

No, my friend is scum because there's $60 in his pocket that should rightfully be the house's.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

What are you drinking?

I quit drinking....a couple of hours ago. But I was downing shots of Black Velvet and chasing it with Coors. But that's neither here nor there. Paigowdannyboy called us AP's scum....and we ain't gonna let him get away with it. Casino Industry personnel are the scum. Ain't that right, Paigowdannyboy.

Quote: Paigowdan

Signs disallowing edge-sorting don't need to be posted.
signs warning you not to mark cards don't need to be posted.
signs warning you not to put the cards into you mouth and chew on them don't need to be posted.

Yes, they do.

Quote: AxelWolf

No I ran and scarfed up all the money she missed (that's a JOKE) I'm no rat and Management was well aware of the situation. I have put myself out there in situations like this, only to have it come and bite me in the ass in a casino. Out side of a casino I would be the first person to help someone.

Management probably had a room or a suite with a nurse and butler, to escort her upstairs and let her sleep it off as a high-roller, I hope. If she didn't have that and no one to take her home, she could get robbed and killed on the way out.

Quote: Axelwolf

I have seen many situations like this and have been close to at least 4 in the last 5 months. Don't fool yourself It happens in many casinos every night.

I know. Some Stations properties are strict; many aren't. I went through alcohol awareness training, all casino workers do.

Quote: Axelwolf

I would be willing to make you a prop bet, concerning clearly overly drunk gamblers being served drinks or in a compromising situation.

On a weekend night, the Palms, Rio, hard rock, and Planet Hollywood might have some serious partiers.
Some local places with regular clientele cut you off or supply a hotel room, and won't let you get plastered or will get you a room.
I had some belligerent "Nick Nolte" drunks, and some "Dudley Moore" drunks just cause some sad - saaaaaddd - scenes on dice games. Lord, what some dealers, waitresses, and floormen had to go through. some were "already started" hitting the casino.
I have people come the next day and ask questions, and offer apologies all around, including "if I were here last night" apologies.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

Yes, if they don't want it they should post it ["No AP" signs]. They seem to be intent on adding fine print to everything else.

I have no problem with this lack of signage, and to be honest, most people don't either. What regular gambler gives a.....
I think the lack of signs are fine. If you are causing them a problem, I think it is very courteous of them to send over a high level management guy to come over to you - and to personally counsel you and advise you on conduct and game play issues, if necessary, - and with your personal security detail, to boot - just like a VIP.

In fact, you should tip them for this, like tuition.

So, why expect signs when you can get such personal service?

I personally think you need some counseling.

Quote: mickeycrimm

I quit drinking....a couple of hours ago. But I was downing shots of Black Velvet and chasing it with Coors. But that's neither here nor there. Paigowdannyboy called us AP's scum....and we ain't gonna let him get away with it. Casino Industry personnel are the scum. Ain't that right, Paigowdannyboy.

Some ex-AP players who switched sides and went to consult with casinos got death threats.
Look, I question the whole AP racket, be it a life pursuit, a pastime, a parttime job, whatever.
I think it's misguided, that it eventually leads no where but a dead end from burn out, losses for both non-AP players and operators, and is not what gambling is about.

Quote: mickeycrimm

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

Yes, if they don't want it they should post it ["No AP" signs]. They seem to be intent on adding fine print to everything else.

I have no problem with this lack of signage, and to be honest, most people don't either. What regular gambler gives a.....
I think the lack of signs are fine. If you are causing them a problem, I think it is very courteous of them to send over a high level management guy to come over to you - and to personally counsel you and advise you on conduct and game play issues, if necessary, - and with your personal security detail, to boot - just like a VIP.

In fact, you should tip them for this, like tuition.

So, why expect signs when you can get such personal service?

I personally think you need some counseling.

Sleep it off.

Paigowdannyboy, If gambling is entertainment, then how come you guys ain't so entertained when some AP kicks you guys asses?

Quote: mickeycrimm

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

Yes, if they don't want it they should post it ["No AP" signs]. They seem to be intent on adding fine print to everything else.

I have no problem with this lack of signage, and to be honest, most people don't either. What regular gambler gives a.....
I think the lack of signs are fine. If you are causing them a problem, I think it is very courteous of them to send over a high level management guy to come over to you - and to personally counsel you and advise you on conduct and game play issues, if necessary, - and with your personal security detail, to boot - just like a VIP.

In fact, you should tip them for this, like tuition.

So, why expect signs when you can get such personal service?

I personally think you need some counseling.

What kind of "counseling" do you think he should get Mickey? First have another shot, then tell us.

Quote: mickeycrimm

Paigowdannyboy, If gambling is entertainment, then how come you guys ain't so entertained when some AP kicks you guys asses?

But that wasn't gambling.

Quote: Paigowdan

But it wasn't gambling.

How not they could still lose. Again AP players aren't cheaters stealing money with light wands. They take risk just because they have an advantage doesn't mean they aren't taking a risk.

Quote: Twirdman

How not they could still lose. Again AP players aren't cheaters stealing money with light wands.

They are on slot machines....

Quote: Twirdman

They take risk just because they have an advantage doesn't mean they aren't taking a risk.

It's a different risk when the risk is in your favor, and you don't pay the dealers' salaries and properties light bills.

Good night, folks. But Paigowdannyboy ain't gonna get away with calling us scum. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not forever.

Quote: Paigowdan

On a weekend night, the Palms, Rio, hard rock, and Planet Hollywood might have some serious partiers.
Some local places with regular clientele cut you off or supply a hotel room, and won't let you get plastered or will get you a room.
.

Wow oh WOW you are deluded or you will say anything, just not to admit the casinos are just as scummy as AP's. Never will they get you a room, unless you have earned it. They will escort
you off the property or to a cab if your lucky. Trust me, I seen this the other night.

Quote: mickeycrimm

Good night, folks. But Paigowdannyboy ain't gonna get away with calling us scum. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not forever.

Dam it Mickey, I thought for sure you were going to explain to us, how you thought, Dan needed some two-fisted counseling.

deleted

Quote: AxelWolf

Wow oh WOW you are deluded or you will say anything, just not to admit the casinos are just as scummy as AP's. Never will they get you a room, unless you have earned it. They will escort
you off the property or to a cab if your lucky. Trust me, I seen this the other night.

They will lead you to a room using comps/$$$.
(You'll of course call this "pitching.")
They'll say "Buddy, you can't drive, if you can't get your brother/wife to pick you up, we'll call up and arrange a room" (or get a cab)
I've seen this a thousand time in the pit.
And you might say "does the pit get a cut?" The place can get sued.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Instead of dealers, I have my family. And I have light bills, gas bills, etc. also. Such a weak argument. And don't give me that "get a real job" load of crap either. Guys like Steve Wynn can go work for Ford if they don't like it.

So do we all have expenses.
I don't pay for it by scamming a gambling hall now, or anyone.


You can say "they're scamming us."

I'll say if you believe they do that, then AP's are no better at best. Even Worse for using other's perceived scams to justify one's own.

Quote: Paigowdan

So do we all have expenses.
I don't pay for it by scamming a gambling hall now.

What next a sign at the door saying check your brain here before entering?

Quote: coilman

What next a sign at the door saying check your brain here before entering?

They could just as well say that at movie houses or anywhere.
This isn't an issue of signs, or claiming wrongfully to check your brain at the door.

Again, anyone who walks into a casino with the intention to run afoul of a property's rules or conduct expectations, and gets shown the door didn't come with much of a brain in the first place.
You end up backed off or out on the street, not welcome, you weren't the smart one. They were.

Quote: Paigowdan

They will lead you to a room using comps/$$$.
(You'll of course call this "pitching.")
They'll say "Buddy, you can't drive, if you can't get your brother/wife to pick you up, we'll call up and arrange a room"
I've seen this a thousand time in the pit.
And you might say "does the pit get a cut?" The place can get sued.

It all depends on the situation. I have seen a thousand times where someone can barely walk and they just follow them out, making sure they don't get into a car.

I remember when Ballys was letting a 19 year old kid who looked 16 lose thousands of dollars on Black Jack, in just 3 or 4 hr's. Its apparent the dealers and the pit knew dam well he was not 21. Some dealers even questioned his age, but no one stopped it.

The list goes on and on how AP's and casinos do the same types of things. Casinos should be held to a higher standard right?. As I said before, you are not willing to admit it.

I would like for you to address casinos beating players, who have done nothing wrong, not even suspected of cheating or breaking rules.

Quote: AxelWolf

It all depends on the situation. I have seen a thousand times where someone can barely walk and they just follow them out, making sure they don't get into a car.

I remember when Ballys was letting a 19 year old kid who looked 16 lose thousands of dollars on Black Jack, in just 3 or 4 hr's. Its apparent the dealers and the pit knew dam well he was not 21. Some dealers even questioned his age, but no one stopped it.

The list goes on and on how AP's and casinos do the same types of things. Casinos should be held to a higher standard right?

ALL should be held to a higher standard.
You can point to any schmuck in a suit of a casino doing something wrong, erroneous, or improper, and say "okay, this justifies me breaking the rules or doing something improper." This neither works nor is a good argument.

Quote: AxelWolf

As I said before, you are not willing to admit it.

I admitted in this thread alone that casino operators often have idiots on staff, and can raise standards, and are not excused of their own wrongdoings, nor can it be used as an excuse for anyone else's wrong doings as a justification.

Quote: Axelwolf

I would like for you to address casinos beating players, who have done nothing wrong, not even suspected of cheating or breaking rules.

I already have in this thread, and called it despicable, and meant it.
I really don't see this happening at a casino outside of a Martin Scorsese movie at this point.
If casino staff assault you as their version of a backoff, sue the bastards.

I can buy or at least see, all of Dan's arguments and points....in the context of cheating or even something like hole-carding, while not technically cheating is not the way the game was meant to be played. But to me these arguments fall apart when it comes to AP methods that are completely within the rules and intent of how the game was meant to be played.

A card counter does nothing outside the rules of the game. He uses information from cards that have already been played, just the same as people playing the card games of Bridge, Hearts, Gin Rummy and many more card games do. This is how card games are played. Saying the card counter shouldn't do this is nothing more than saying you don't want them to think. That is just an embarrassingly weak argument on your part Dan.

The card counter then raises and lowers his bet as he sees fit, again, completely within the rules of the game. If the casino has a problem with that, they should eliminate minimum and maximum wagers. Just make tables one wager. This is a $10 table, this is a $25 table, this is a $100 table. In addition to eliminating the card counters advantage the casino would increase profits by probably 50% as dealers and players would fly through the rounds played with easier, quicker uniform payouts.

But in the absence of this, just stop with the non-sense about breaking unwritten rules. You are smarter than this and you just look foolish, Dan, and frankly I feel bad for you.

Quote: Paigowdan

So do we all have expenses. I don't pay for it by scamming a gambling hall now, or anyone..

No. You pay for it by scamming the public. Ever notice that bankrupticies go up about 1500% wherever they open up a new casino?

Quote: kewlj

I can buy or at least see, all of Dan's arguments and points....in the context of cheating or even something like hole-carding, while not technically cheating is not the way the game was meant to be played. But to me these arguments fall apart when it comes to AP methods that are completely within the rules and intent of how the game was meant to be played.

A card counter does nothing outside the rules of the game. He uses information from cards that have already been played, just the same as people playing the card games of Bridge, Hearts, Gin Rummy and many more card games do. This is how card games are played. Saying the card counter shouldn't do this is nothing more than saying you don't want them to think. That is just an embarrassingly weak argument on your part Dan.

The card counter then raises and lowers his bet as he sees fit, again, completely within the rules of the game. If the casino has a problem with that, they should eliminate minimum and maximum wagers. Just make tables one wager. This is a $10 table, this is a $25 table, this is a $100 table. In addition to eliminating the card counters advantage the casino would increase profits by probably 50% as dealers and players would fly through the rounds played with easier, quicker uniform payouts.

But in the absence of this, just stop with the non-sense about breaking unwritten rules. You are smarter than this and you just look foolish, Dan, and frankly I feel bad for you.

Great point and post.

But to me, the weakest of Dan's positions is that the player has an obligation to supervise the casino's own dealers and correct mistakes made. Last I checked, customers were customers and not unpaid employees of the casino.

Quote: Twirdman

How not they could still lose. Again AP players aren't cheaters stealing money with light wands. They take risk just because they have an advantage doesn't mean they aren't taking a risk.

What's a light wand?

St. Vincents used to have a separate section for old guys on social security checks. They were separated so they couldn't be picked on by the younger vagrants. All these old guys were compulsive gamblers. Every month when they got their checks they disappeared for 3 or four days. Then they would be right back up at St. Vincents sitting out the month until they got another check.

One of these old guys got into a hell of a blackjack run at the Mirage, running his social security check up into the high hundred thousands. They did everything they could to keep him on the property until they got the money back. You know, comped room, meals. But the old guy looked exactly like what he was, a street tramp. Steve Wynn said "Take him somewhere and buy him a new set of clothes. He's making the place look bad." I kid you not. The old guy had a t-shirt made that said "F--- Steve Wynn" and wore it into the Mirage. They threw him out. Yes, they threw the old guy out. But not until they got him back down to $1000.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

What's a light wand?

It's a light used to blind the coin counter on slot machines. The hopper will empty out if the coin counter is blinded.

Quote: mickeycrimm

It's a light used to blind the coin counter on slot machines. The hopper will empty out if the coin counter is blinded.

Oh. Smart! But, yeah, definitely stealing. No different from prying the thing open.

Do they still have slot machines with coins and hoppers?

Quote: kewlj

I can buy or at least see, all of Dan's arguments and points....in the context of cheating or even something like hole-carding, while not technically cheating is not the way the game was meant to be played. But to me these arguments fall apart when it comes to AP methods that are completely within the rules and intent of how the game was meant to be played.

A card counter does nothing outside the rules of the game. He uses information from cards that have already been played, just the same as people playing the card games of Bridge, Hearts, Gin Rummy and many more card games do. This is how card games are played. Saying the card counter shouldn't do this is nothing more than saying you don't want them to think. That is just an embarrassingly weak argument on your part Dan.

The card counter then raises and lowers his bet as he sees fit, again, completely within the rules of the game. If the casino has a problem with that, they should eliminate minimum and maximum wagers. Just make tables one wager. This is a $10 table, this is a $25 table, this is a $100 table. In addition to eliminating the card counters advantage the casino would increase profits by probably 50% as dealers and players would fly through the rounds played with easier, quicker uniform payouts.

But in the absence of this, just stop with the non-sense about breaking unwritten rules. You are smarter than this and you just look foolish, Dan, and frankly I feel bad for you.

My point is that casinos and AP's are really no diffident(casinos just have a licence) each of them are in it to make money, neither of them are noble, few professions are. Both AP's and casinos do bad and good things. Casinos will do what ever they can get away with. Both of them have had situations to both extremes. I cant stand the fact that Dan keeps lumping all AP's together with cheaters and rule breakers. Yet he dose not like when we, lump together all bad casino practices with all the casinos or employees. If AP's are scummy then, casinos are as well.

One thing casinos do, that AP's don't do, is devastate many, many lives.

Quote: mickeycrimm

It's a light used to blind the coin counter on slot machines. The hopper will empty out if the coin counter is blinded.

I knew three old time slot cheats in Las Vegas. They had some very interesting stories to tell. Two of them did stretches in the pen. Tom H. told me how two guys with light wands would go into a neighborhood bar on graveyard when business is slow. One would be on a machine on one end of the bar and the other would be on a machine at the other end of the bar. One guy would keep the bartender busy while the other emptied out the hopper of his machine. And vice versa.

Alan ? told me about getting caught stringing in the Horseshoe. Stringing was drilling a hole in a coin and tying a string to it. Then you dropped the coin into a coin acceptor on a machine. By lowering and raising the coin you clicked in the bets. They took Alan to the basement and beat the hell out of him, then pitched him out in the alley.

Quote: kewlj

I can buy or at least see, all of Dan's arguments and points....in the context of cheating or even something like hole-carding, while not technically cheating is not the way the game was meant to be played. But to me these arguments fall apart when it comes to AP methods that are completely within the rules and intent of how the game was meant to be played.

I agree with this, but with an annoying catch.
1. For Contract Bridge, you're supposed to track discards to adjust your play, and would be gigged as a bad player if you didn't.
2. For Baccarat's main bets, tracking cards is irrelevant, yet people track them out of superstition, and as a diversion part of the game.
3. For house-banked Blackjack, tracking cards or the shoe's composition is disallowed by the house, with their expectation that you play the game as if it were dealt from an infinite deck using the current deal's "up-card" basic strategy. Tracking cards to discern the high-low counts and adjusting bets accordingly signals that you are card-counting, and not using the allowed "infinite deck" mode of play that most ploppies use, and are NOT -as kewlj claims - "completely within the rules and intent of how the game was meant to be played" at all. This is why you get flat-betted or 86-ed, depending on the floorman and/or player resolution. Again, as a history lesson seems to be needed, Blackjack was installed at the turn of the 20th century as a game that was assumed to be played on a NON-compositional basis, and when it was realized that player advantages from composition-tracking can nullify the house edge, the game is offered on condition that you don't track the count and use it to advantage. This is actually why the undeniable flat-betting, back offs and 86-ing occur. If you can't abide by this rule, you are then not guaranteed the right to play, regardless of how you may feel about it. Remember, my friends, it's how the casino feels about your play in the real world.

Quote: kewlj

A card counter does nothing outside the rules of the game. He uses information from cards that have already been played, just the same as people playing the card games of Bridge, Hearts, Gin Rummy and many more card games do. This is how card games are played. Saying the card counter shouldn't do this is nothing more than saying you don't want them to think. That is just an embarrassingly weak argument on your part Dan.

1. No, card-counting is outside the allowed rules of the game when it is house (casino)-banked.
2. Blackjack is not Gin Rummy, Hearts, or Bridge, which are not casino-banked games, where discards are supposed to be taken into account, as different games have different rules, and house-banked games for real money stipulate additional rules of conduct.

Quote: kewlj

The card counter then raises and lowers his bet as he sees fit, again, completely within the rules of the game.

No, it is not within the rules of the game when house-banked for real money, and everything from flat-betting players, back offs, and 86-ing are legally available to the casino as an option, and are indeed used precisely to display this point.

Quote: kewlj

If the casino has a problem with that, they should eliminate minimum and maximum wagers. Just make tables one wager. This is a $10 table, this is a $25 table, this is a $100 table.

Yes, kewlj, this what is exactly done for counters; it's called Flat betting a player. They say "Sir, your first bet size is your bet size for the rest of the shoe. Get that or leave the table." so kewlj should be happy about that, as they do take his recommendation here, but only for card counters. However, non-counters may vary their bet size so as long as it doesn't follow the count. Non-counters are allowed to do that when card counters are not.

Quote: kewlj

In addition to eliminating the card counters advantage the casino would increase profits by probably 50% as dealers and players would fly through the rounds played with easier, quicker uniform payouts.

This is a good point from kewlj. Most non-counters generally flat bet, speeding game play pace.

Quote: kewlj

But in the absence of this, just stop with the non-sense about breaking unwritten rules. You are smarter than this and you just look foolish, Dan, and frankly I feel bad for you.

These rules are written in every casino surveillance and shift office and on every word of instruction that a pit boss gives an AP player in the real world. This rule is used so much that the casinos' responses are very known to the AP world.
These rules are also written in every AP Blackjack book and AP Internet site that discusses camouflage plays, disguises, concealment, etc.

Quote: sodawater

Great point and post.

But to me, the weakest of Dan's positions is that the player has an obligation to supervise the casino's own dealers and correct mistakes made. Last I checked, customers were customers and not unpaid employees of the casino.

No, this is not a requirement of any player. He may do so to help the dealer regardless of which direction the error occurred, as I am sure you all expect to see right play and right money payouts on the tables, as you would expect this for your own selves, and based on the actual result of the cards in play. (oh, the expectations are so high....) Certainly, I prefer to see games played cleanly.

deleted

There are a bunch of people not chiming into
this discussion because we've already done
this dance with Dan. Said the exact same
things you guys are saying and got the exact
same responses. Dan's a nice guy, but he's
got a blind spot about casinos. He really believes
AP's are cheaters, he used to say it all the time.
It's because the casinos believe it, they'd
have them all shot if they could.

It's real simple. The casino wants every dollar
in your pocket, in your bank account, and
whatever you can get on your CC's. They think
they deserve it just because you walked into
the trap they set up for you. And what is it
that clever people who set traps to get your
money, what is it they hate worse than anything.
Somebody tricking them into getting the money
they took with their trap. What does a crook
hate more than anything else. Another crook
stealing his stolen money.

This mentality comes from the days when the Mob
ran casinos, and every game was rigged. They
really were crooks. And if you were an AP in those
days, you were a crook stealing from crooks and
they beat the living crap out of you, or worse.
The casino still feels this way about AP's, they just
can't do much about it. Drives them nuts.

Quote: Paigowdan

the game is offered on condition that you don't track the count and use it to advantage. This is actually why the undeniable flat-betting, back offs and 86-ing occur. If you can't abide by this rule, you are then not guaranteed the right to play, regardless of how you may feel about it.

I accept that the house has the right to refuse service to anyone. But calling sharp gamblers scum is absolutely unacceptable.

Quote: EvenBob

He really believes AP's are cheaters, he used to say it all the time.

He still says it. He says that card counters are "breaking the rules". "Cheating" is just a synonym of "breaking the rules".

You're right, there's no point to this argument. I'm not sure if Dan really believes all this or not, but it's not really relevant either way. APs know that they are doing nothing wrong, and the courts have agreed time and time again. Dan can believe whatever he wants.

Fine Dan what about VP AP plays. I mean they are definitely playing the game exactly as they are supposed to. They aren't tracking cards aren't doing anything but holding the hand that is most advantageous to them. I mean should they be forced to play poorly so as to not be scum. I mean with VP there is a theoretically correct play based on only information that the casino intends to give to the patron why is the patron wrong for using that strategy.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Neither do I. I place a bet legally, and await the outcome.

The outcome may not be what you expect, or had in mind.

To explain my position, and to get back to the thread's thrust, I do have three basic assumptions about running a casino:

1. Players, (as well as employees), are responsible for their conduct, and this includes playing by the house's stipulations and guidelines, not what we'd like them to be, and for our own often-selfish intentions. There doesn't have to be a plethora of signs on everything, nor do contract agreements, but there are general assumptions of conduct, to which if you disagree with something, you can't really yap, "Well, Mr. Pit Boss, show me where it is written for that AP is unacceptable to you!!" He'll just answer "on my lips."

2. The property guidelines are set by the property and state laws. This means that it is both legal to count, and to be backed off or removed for it.

3. Most people are decent and exhibit good conduct and play by the rules, which they themselves find very fair, reasonable, and fine, and so they patronize the places. Others have concepts and beliefs of: "Well, THIS is the way it should be, damn it, that I can do what I want and make the rules, and it makes sense to ME, dammit! And casinos are no good, lying, scamming sacks of no good junk and are the evil guys," usually to justify the very behavior that they accuse them of. Private property businesses have some reasonable leeway as to who may attend, and how one should behave for the privilege of that attendance, and I agree with and can see at Point of view.

Look, it would be a sweet dream if we can turn casino tables into our own personal ATM or to be allowed to try "blue mechanisms" achieve this, but this is not gambling, not happening, not going to happen, and an unrealistic expectation.

deleted

Quote: mickeycrimm

I knew three old time slot cheats in Las Vegas. They had some very interesting stories to tell. Two of them did stretches in the pen. Tom H. told me how two guys with light wands would go into a neighborhood bar on graveyard when business is slow. One would be on a machine on one end of the bar and the other would be on a machine at the other end of the bar. One guy would keep the bartender busy while the other emptied out the hopper of his machine. And vice versa.

Alan ? told me about getting caught stringing in the Horseshoe. Stringing was drilling a hole in a coin and tying a string to it. Then you dropped the coin into a coin acceptor on a machine. By lowering and raising the coin you clicked in the bets. They took Alan to the basement and beat the hell out of him, then pitched him out in the alley.

Axel, these 3 old slot cheats, Tom, Alan and J.D. all knew each other. They told me there was a bar on the northwest corner of what is now the Golden Nugget. The Golden Nugget eventually bought the bar and expanded. This bar was where the slot cheats hung out drinking, swapping stories, strategies, etc. There was always undercover in the bar trying to pick up any information they could. Gaming chased these guys for years trying to nab them. A lot of cheats can be very hard to prove.

These guys were, I think they called it "handle poppers", sluggers, shavers, stringers, light wanders, and probably a host of other things I don't know about. Tom told me that the last coin going into a machine didn't drop down to the hopper. It stayed in some kind of mechanism above. So even if they got caught playing a machine with slugs in the hopper, if the last coin in the machine was a real coin, they had a very hard time proving you were slugging unless you had slugs in your pocket.

Tom told me the story of slugging in a blind spot (no cameras) in the Golden Gate. The change girl made him and immediately alerted security. Tom dropped a real token into the machine then took off with his bucket of slugs and bucket of Golden Gate tokens. He went across the street into the Vegas Club, dropped the slugs into a garbage can, then took off down Fremont Street. Golden Gate security grabbed him and he immediately fell to the ground, the tokens went everywhere, and then he went into his act. "My back! My back! I can't move. These guys beat me up."

The cops got there. Tom, laying on the ground, told them "These guys beat me up. I need to go to the hospital. I'm going to sue." Security told the cops they caught him slugging. They went back to the machine. There were slugs in the hopper but the last coin in the machine was a real token. Tom went off to the hospital with his fake act. He hired a lawyer. The Golden Gate wound up cutting him a $5000 check to get rid of the lawsuit.

Tom told me when they finally caught him, slugging, the undercover guys said to him "Mr. H. It took us 7 years! But we finally got you!" He did five years in, I think they call it Indian Springs. When he was in prison the IRS confiscated his house, cars, everything.

Quote: mickeycrimm

Axel, these 3 old slot cheats, Tom, Alan and J.D. all knew each other. They told me there was a bar on the northwest corner of what is now the Golden Nugget. The Golden Nugget eventually bought the bar and expanded. This bar was where the slot cheats hung out drinking, swapping stories, strategies, etc. There was always undercover in the bar trying to pick up any information they could. Gaming chased these guys for years trying to nab them. A lot of cheats can be very hard to prove.

These guys were, I think they called it "handle poppers", sluggers, shavers, stringers, light wanders, and probably a host of other things I don't know about. Tom told me that the last coin going into a machine didn't drop down to the hopper. It stayed in some kind of mechanism above. So even if they got caught playing a machine with slugs in the hopper, if the last coin in the machine was a real coin, they had a very hard time proving you were slugging unless you had slugs in your pocket.
.

You mind if I ask what handle popper is I've never heard that term. I know the others but just never seen that one.

Quote: Twirdman

You mind if I ask what handle popper is I've never heard that term. I know the others but just never seen that one.

I don't know exactly how it worked. It was some kind of manipulation of the slot handle that caused symbols to line up.

Quote: mickeycrimm

I don't know exactly how it worked. It was some kind of manipulation of the slot handle that caused symbols to line up.

Interesting didn't even know that was really possible. Take it was only possible on older machines with purely mechanical reels.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I don't care about your position.

You don't have to care; I'm just stating how it works.

Quote: IBeatyouraces

I only care about the laws and what's legal or not.

You'll care if they don't take your brand of "action" or have you removed....and this too is what is legal. Just how it works.

Quote: Ibeatyourace

And it's time for the public to stand up to these discriminatory and predatory tactics and vote to get these laws in the consumers favor.

Only to be told that businesses too have rights and are part of the equation, and may use fair guidelines.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

But until then, I accept the possible consequences of my actions and being shown the door. Not one problem with it.

That's good to hear, as it something that those in this brand of work may have to get used to. Others prefer to stay and play.

Quote: Paigowdan

Others prefer to stay and play.

They choose to stay and lose, like the good
little casinotard's they are. Play by the rules
and lose your share and the casino won't
bother you. Those are the real unwritten
rules.

Quote: mickeycrimm

I don't know exactly how it worked. It was some kind of manipulation of the slot handle that caused symbols to line up.

My memory has been jogged. Say a machine had a $300 or $400 jackpot for three 7's. They would spin until a 7 landed on the third reel. Then they would manipulate the slot handle so that the third reel didn't move. So all they had to catch was 7's on the first and second reels.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Oh. Smart! Do they still have slot machines with coins and hoppers?

I would guess that they are pretty rare these days. One cheat I forgot about was the overpayers. Parts wear out on machines. When certain parts wear out the machine can overpay the number of coins you are supposed to get. Say you cash out 100 credits but wind up with 120 coins. You've got yourself an overpayer. The Bally Gamemakers were famous for it, along with Sigma, and Williams nickel 9-line video games.

When I was in Council Bluffs, Iowa I watched how some of these guys operated. They would come into the casino, find a row of Williams nine-liner nickels. They would stick a five dollar bill in each machine, hit the cashout button, and load the nickels in a bucket. If they went through 10 machines that would be fifty dollars worth of nickels. They would take the nickels to a coin-counter. If the coin-counter paid them more than fifty dollars, then it was just a matter of zeroing in on which machine was doing the overpaying.

These guys had different techniques on exploiting the overpayers. You hand feed coins in,then hit the cashout button. By continually doing this you will empty out the hopper. Most casinos had a stop gap procedure called the "three fill check." Anytime a casino employee goes into a machine they have to leave a record of it in the log book inside the machine. If a machine took three fills in a twenty-four hour period they would shut the machine down and have a slot tech check the machine to see if it was overpaying. So a lot of these guys would take just two fills and walk away.

But the sharper cheats played for hand pays. If a machine is overpaying 20 or 25% then you are essentially playing for free. It looked like a lot of work to me. You're doing a lot of hand feeding and cashing out.

I stayed away from the slot cheats in casinos. It's real easy to get a "guilt by association" and lose the casino.

My biggest pet peeve about casinos is uncomfortable seating. Nothing irks me more than a billion dollar casino with stools in front of their machines. How long do you think Ma and Pa Kettle are going to sit on them stools, Mr. Casino Executive?

Quote: mickeycrimm

him slugging. They went back to the machine. There were slugs in the hopper but the last coin in the machine was a real token. .

I don't think they would be able to tell exactly what the last coin in the hopper was, they land on other coins slide around and lay in different spots, other then it may be somewhere on top.