If I ran a casino...(Split thread)
Quote: FroggerIf they adjust the parlay cards daily, or use some form of off-the-board numbers (even with giving every player half points), then there wouldn't be any edge at all.
I agree 100%. If I ran a casino I'd attempt to make it completely AP proof, except for such things as live poker and progressives, where players are winning the money of other players, not the the casino's money.
Quote: WizardI agree 100%. If I ran a casino I'd attempt to make it completely AP proof, except for such things as live poker and progressives, where players are winning the money of other players, not the the casino's money.
Would you really? I wouldn't. I certainly would try to make it immune to big hits, but I think that the advertising value of small AP play is worth more than the potential losses. You don't need an advantage on every bet, just on the aggregate of all bets.
For example, say you have a quarter video poker machine that returns slightly more than 100% with perfect play. Sure, an AP could camp out and play perfectly and grind out some small amount of money, but for most people who have taken the time to learn to play perfectly, this is a waste of time. I'd think that the large sign that you could put up that says "101% return!!" (or whatever) would be good enough advertising to more than offset any losses (since most people will play far from perfectly).
Actually, the real AP play here is playing this machine at near-break-even and downing as many free drinks as possible :)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWould you really? I wouldn't.
I wouldn't go for gimmicks like 5-cent 100%+ video poker. However, I would allow the chance to be beating by card counters. The alternative of continuous shufflers I think would drive off legitimate players. Anyway, if you wish to reply, please make a new thread for it, as I don't want to hijack the original topic.
I would encourage smoking, give seniors
the best comps (they have all the money),
cater to seniors generally, the more the better.
Have tons of slots contests, players love those.
I would have an all you can eat pizza joint in
the casino. Pizza is the most cost effective food
in the restaurant business. It would be there to
draw people in, a loss leader.
No free booze, free beer only. 20 brands. Slots
in the pizza joint. People would love my casino.
Quote: EvenBobI would have the scantiest clad cocktail girls.
I would encourage smoking, give seniors
the best comps (they have all the money),
cater to seniors generally, the more the better.
Have tons of slots contests, players love those.
I would have an all you can eat pizza joint in
the casino. Pizza is the most cost effective food
in the restaurant business. It would be there to
draw people in, a loss leader.
No free booze, free beer only. 20 brands. Slots
in the pizza joint. People would love my casino.
would you be there????
Quote: ontariodealerwould you be there????
Hell no, I hate casinos.
Quote: EvenBobI would encourage smoking, give seniors
the best comps (they have all the money),
cater to seniors generally, the more the better.
If you encourage smoking, then you're not catering to seniors. Statistically, seniors are much less likely to smoke than younger adults.
Go with volume and hopefully higher bets.
I would check out the competition. Anything slot wise they had popular and many of, would be sure to have them on my floor loose as possible. Anyone playing at my casino would say it's fair and the other a rip off based on this comparison. Although, Im suspicious the slot reps might reveal my strategy to the competition even though they should by law not say a thing. I would also not let my casino be listed as having "nothing good" on VP free.
Mystery progressive games would have a label "this game has a
players advantage after $xxx.xx. Or signs on video poker progressives
that say this game can be beaten with proper strategy. Maybe some
historical signs around the casino that tell about ken uston and other
team play. Signs near the pit for every single game. How each game
can be beaten. Advertise the hell out of offering only games that
have and can be beaten. But then obviously have well trained employees
to deal with it. Offer some decent meter rise and advertise that!
Poker rooms 5% or $5. My only concern is something OTHER than TH-NL. OM8 and 7-Stud might be the only other offerings that might attract someone. Perhaps a lower rake for these 4% or $4.
When we talk OLG, then it becomes more of a question of table limits and fracturing those limits 2-100 and 25-2000... craps 1-50 and 20-1000. A lot can be done to generally lower the HA of certain bets, to keep the pacing and attraction. I mean, you don't have to drive, and get good "Odds". Poker tournies are doable from 50c to $500. OTOH, no Tray Babes unless the wife/gf/other thinks the idea is good once in a while.
1. I'd have an Ace surveillance crew.
2. Razor-Sharp shift managers.
3. Decent treatment of dealers and players. NO down-talking from floor supervision, or else right back in a dealer's shirt after a visit to the shift office.
4. Shot takers get rudely talked to and backed off, but polite AP-ers get a chance: a polite back off, an invite to throw dice, and a comp. [Jesus, have I really changed!!!] And a surveillance report restricting them to Dice, PGP, Roulette, and slots.
Table games:
1. Craps 10x odds, 3x field on 12, bonus craps, and full 2x on tubs. I miss the old sit-down crap table tub from the Casino Royale. I do not know how many here remember that.
2. Double deck Galore, 3:2, six-deck shoes, and a $3 CSM, with Lucky Ladies or 21+3, at 60% penetration on non-CSM games.
3. Remove UTH, and Replace with Heads Up Hold 'em.
4. Remove Fortune Pai Gow, and replace with EZ Pai Gow.
5. Remove Crazy-4-poker and replace with High Card flush.
6. Install Freebet Blackjack in NV, and Players Choice-21 outside.
slots and sports book handled by Brad.
I'm ribbing Pacman here.
Simple.
...
What would do when across the street a casino opened offering 30 brands of free beer?
Quote: FleaStiff>No free booze, free beer only. 20 brands. People would love my casino.
What would do when across the street a casino opened offering 30 brands of free beer?
Play there of course.
Quote: IbeatyouracesQuote: Paigowdan[Jesus, have I really changed!!!]
Not really.
Well, I'm trying.
We Still Gotta keep the lights on for the gambling hall operators. You can't kill the house and expect it to be there tomorrow.
There's no free lunch, (but there should be free booze.)
I've got to admit, having played at the Joker's Wild on Boulder & Lake Mead B, a nothing fancy low rollers place with humble unpretentiousness, I played some $2 Three Card poker with red and a little green for a while with my wife, a WTH kind of thing, - and a floorman volunteers a comp for lunch at their coffee shop on coloring up. "Thank you for coming down." We'd seldom see this volunteered, I mean unless otherwise asked and/or argued at most places. Steak and Eggs, and an Egg salad sandwich with the Mrs., sit down and relax.
The gesture beat the crap out of a free soda every half hour.
Okay, then, owning a joint....
Offer all with good late morning play or afternoon play a free buffet or a coffee shop lunch. "Thank you for your patronage." Floormen are sales reps for the joint, but most don't seem to know it. Buy 'em lunch and invite them back. Slow time is the best time to get them to remember you. A house-owned coffee shop/buffet it costs them next to nothing, and they'll come back.
Quote: PaigowdanA house-owned coffee shop/buffet it costs them next to nothing, and they'll come back.
That's what I mean about a low cost pizza buffet.
So it breaks even, people will come in just for
the pizza and end up gambling. Who doesn't
like pizza and beer.
In a competitive market like Las Vegas this would be difficult, especially if you were in a locals market, you would have to cut down on promotions quite a bit. Including, drawings, bounce back, new member offers, cash give-a-ways and anything you can think of. You would have to cut down VP percentages as well. Even then, AP's are a cleaver bunch and will sneak one in on you. I would say 99% of the casino have had an AP, I cant think of one normal LV casino, I have not had some type of an advantage in (I'm sure there is a few). I know bars get away with this quite well. I bet Dotty's could go AP free easily. Dotty's seem to have a fairly tight ship with the same ongoing promotions and machines. They are not AP proof, but they don't seem to run anything they can get crushed on. I really dislike them for this reason.Quote: WizardI agree 100%. If I ran a casino I'd attempt to make it completely AP proof, except for such things as live poker and progressives, where players are winning the money of other players, not the the casino's money.
I think the best bet would to just make sure you didn't make a major mistake. I would just limit my Promotional funds to X amount per promotion, while supplies last.
If you just talking about Machines and not promotions. Progressives seem like a good way to go. However, AP's tend to lock them up when numbers are high and piss off the regulars, not to mention AP's walk with the profits. I think the M tried this.
I always wondered how the Fiesta did over all, when they were AP friendly.
Personally I would just 86 all the pros.
Quote: rainmanYes sir Dan we agree on something. I believe hospitality is the long lost ingredient as well.
It REALLY is.
For a floorman ( - whom we normally only see or talk to only if there's a problem) - to ever take a moment, to stop by and say, "Thank you for coming down, we appreciate it - and lunch is on us!" is rare. Even if the place is slow.
Normally the floorman only says to us, as players, on a color up: "okay, go ahead," without turning around, - and turns to some paper work, neither acknowledging us, or even looking at us, and usually it's the same with the dealer.
For the floorman to walk over and thank you - and comp lunch you on a "goodbye color-up," - when the dealer just looks at you and shrugs, blank look and no goodbye, - this stands out. (That's probably why he came over. He was attentive to business courtesy. This floorman is probably a shift manager now at some other Boyd property....)
Table Games is all about people and being decent and social. If we aren't like this, the players can and will be playing slots for the same or even better math.
This makes sense to me.
A real nice Italian restaurant and bar tried low cost pizza, it was located out on Durango, named JR's. JR and his wife owned and operated it, She was the main cook and both spend a ton of time at the location. JR's was old school Vegas. They had a 1.99 Pizza after 12 am It was great, no to go orders. Eventually he stopped doing it. I asked him, why they ended it? He said, his goal was to get people to come in for the pizza, then hopefully they would gamble and drink. He said, everyone showed up for the pizza, people would drive across town, just for the pizza, but people just were not staying to gamble *looks around.Quote: EvenBobThat's what I mean about a low cost pizza buffet.
So it breaks even, people will come in just for
the pizza and end up gambling. Who doesn't
like pizza and beer.
Quote: AxelWolfIn a competitive market like Las Vegas this would be difficult, especially if you were in a locals market, you would have to cut down on promotions quite a bit. Including, drawings, bounce back, new member offers, cash give-a-ways and anything you can think of. You would have to cut down VP percentages as well. Even then, AP's are a cleaver bunch and will sneak one in on you. I would say 99% of the casino have had an AP, I cant think of one normal LV casino, I have not had some type of an advantage in (I'm sure there is a few).
This is a damn good reason for the house being:
1. Fair on disputes;
2. courteous to players;
3. Thoughtful on volunteering comps; all the while being rough (backoff wise) to AP's who really do skim the funds that provide for customer service, fair house edges, and amenities and comps that customers need and demand.
AP's screw it up for other gamblers more than the house because ALL gamblers will pay for ALL the bills if our lights are still on. AP is why we are stuck with 6:5 Blackjack, high house edges, bad comps, and shitty penetration, because your fellow gamblers [ploppies] always pay the bill and you don't give a damn, thinking you're really hitting the casinos. The house doesn't sweat because AP's fleece the ploppies who pay. Clamping down on this crap just levels the playing field among gamblers. Complain that stud on AP activity and not on the house, as we try and will keep the lights on. That's the real story. I have to be blunt about that. You AP the pit, we have to cut back on comps and amenities, because you're taking more from your fellow players than from the house. This is just the facts of this business, really. There is no way around it. If a casino is hit by AP, their fellow gamblers pay for it all along. This is not Robin Hood.
Quote: AxelwolfI know bars get away with this quite well. I bet Dotty's could go AP free easily. Dotty's seem to have a fairly tight ship with the same ongoing promotions and machines. They are not AP proof, but they don't seem to run anything they can get crushed on. I really dislike them for this reason.
I think the best bet would to just make sure you didn't make a major mistake. I would just limit my Promotional funds to X amount per promotion, while supplies last.
If you just talking about Machines and not promotions. Progressives seem like a good way to go. However, AP's tend to lock them up when numbers are high and piss off the regulars, not to mention AP's walk with the profits. I think the M tried this.
AP's playing the ploppies is bad sport.
Operators don't care that much about player wolves slaughtering player lambs in chasing jackpots until it affects their business
AP's playing the house brings either:
a) have these greedy gimmicks come to an end, or;
b) the house allowing this crap will bring it to its end, and this includes hole-carding and competent card-counting.
Just a fact of casino life.
Wells that get raped....will dry up and get filled with scum. Onto the next maraudering.....not a good M.O.
Quote: AxelwolfI always wondered how the Fiesta did over all, when they were AP friendly.
too many came out of the woodwork. Flat-bet or Roulette city.
Quote: AxelwolfPersonally I would just 86 all the pros.
You have to, to stay in business.
Dan I am mostly talking about VP, slots and Keno type games not table games I don't play a lot of table games anymore unless the opportunity is real good or in my face.Quote: PaigowdanThis is a damn good reason for the house being:
1. Fair on disputes;
2. courteous to players;
3. Thoughtful on volunteering comps; all the while being rough (backoff wise) to AP's who really do skim the funds that provide for customer service, fair house edges, and amenities and comps that customers need and demand. AP's f*ck it up for other gamblers more than the house because all gamblers will pay their bills. This is why we are stuck with 6:5 Blackjack, high house edges, bad comps, and shitty penetration. That's the real story. I have to be blunt about that. You AP the pit, we have to cut back on comps and amenities, because you're taking more from your fellow players than from the house. This is just the facts of this business, really. There is no way around it.
AP's playing the ploppies is bad sport.
Operators don't care that much about player wolves slaughtering player lambs in chasing jackpots until it affects their business
AP's playing the house brings either:
a) have these greedy gimmicks come to an end, or;
b) the house allowing this crap will bring it to its end, and this includes hole-carding and competent card-counting.
Just a fact of casino life.
Wells that get raped....will dry up and get filled with scum. Onto the next maraudering.....not a good M.O.
too many came out of the woodwork. Flat-bet or Roulette city.
You have to, to stay in business.
So my question was about the great VP and promotions they had at one time.
Are you referring to AP's as scum?
Wells may dry up, but more are found.
Quote: AxelWolfDan I am mostly talking about VP, slots and Keno type games not table games I don't play a lot of table games anymore unless the opportunity is real good or in my face.
AP on slot progressives (short of a coat-hanger in the machine) is okay. That's playing the odds.
Quote: AxelwolfSo my question was about the great VP and promotions they had at one time.
Are you referring to AP's as scum?
Not on slots. On table games, it can be either Foam or scum at times. No Casino lacks security and legal departments.
Quote: AxelwolfWells may dry up, but more are found.
No. The door is slowly but surely closing.
If it gets bad, those wells will stay dried up:
1. 3:2 BJ is not coming back on single, or later even double deck.
2. Comps stay down.
3. Automation comes in.
4. AP-ing as a job or pastime on table games will dry up, - as it actually has been doing: facial recognition software, I-tables, etc.
It's eventually going to become as hard to AP a table game as it is an Internet casino.
And without backrooming or needing Nasarian; sorry, play roulette.
You have GOT to admit things are tougher now than before, and it is heading in that direction as operators and distributors catch up. Granted, I know there is a lag, but it will come to a point where you can no longer jump the bar.
Over all I think it would be bad for casinos to get rid of AP's altogether. With all the books and shows and stories, dealing with the dream of being able to beat casinos, probably dose more good for the casinos then it hurts them.
Quote: AxelWolfI would like to add, I don't like it when casinos toss out AP's. I think that's scummy. I was just saying, that's probably what I would do, if I didn't know any better or what to do.
It's business, not personal anymore.
And it makes the game fairer for clean players who play in good faith.
It'll bring back 3:2 BJ, but AP can't play.
It'll bring back better comps.
It'll bring back lower house edges....as....
True gamblers will replace true professionals, - as a true professional is NOT a true gambler.
There will be....just gamblers.
Quote: AxelwolfOver all I think it would be bad for casinos to get rid of AP's altogether.
No.
This is "Keeping the dream alive" here.
99% will remain social and true gamblers, and the professionals will find another line of work.
And....comps will go up, and house edges down...and this is actually all right.
Quote: AxelwolfWith all the books and shows and stories, dealing with the dream of being able to beat casinos, probably dose more good for the casinos then it hurts them.
Regular people will THEN be able to beat casinos - by having a great night because of variance - instead of someone else's illicit skill depriving them of that chance, or lessening that case to cover the loses the offering house has to cover for this all.
I guess "normal gamblers" haven't gotten the memo yet, because I have never seen a normal gambler object to someone else at the table being paid when he should have pushed or lost. Surely that normal gambler realizes that he will eventually pay for that mistake, right?
Quote: sodawaterHa, APs "fleece" normal gamblers? Now I have heard it all. That is truly a perverse way of looking at it.
No it's not. Knowingly taking dirty or wrong money in any direction - house or player - is the same in any direction. Costs are passed on to all customers.
If you don't like money taken from you wrongfully, on an error, when you KNOW it, - then why would you accept it in your direction just as dirty money and known to be wrong when pointed out. Do you THINK we don't all see it when this shit happens, and when you want to be greasy and try to take it?
Really? Well, most people will think "a little extra for myself, others will pay pennies each."
Quote: sodawaterI guess "normal gamblers" haven't gotten the memo yet, because I have never seen a normal gambler object to someone else at the table being paid when he should have pushed or lost. Surely that normal gambler realizes that he will eventually pay for that mistake, right?
Well, here's the memo.....
I have done so in casinos, and so have a lot of other players who don't have larceny in them, or who don't have a need to take money they know they didn't rightfully earn or win, - and who call foul on ANY dirty play going down on the very tables they have their own money in live action on. I'll simply say it when I see dirty play and money taking on a table I'm playing my own damn money on, with this going down. Every time. Few Gamblers may have standards, - especially at a gamblers' forum, as few they are, as we can see here at times.
As I have said many times at the tables - many times, - "if you're so hard up and want to take dirty money that you damn well know you didn't win, then go and show us your true colors and try take it in front of a full table and a dealer and video cameras, if you're that fucking hard up. In fact, go stick up a 7-11 instead of this table we're playing at. THAT simple.
They generally are stunned, getting some needed home training.
What are they going to do?
If they say shit and have a fit, security comes, and they get booked with metro.
If they stop and say "You're right, what was I thinking - the dealers cards are on camera, and I am not that hard up!" - then good for them.
If you tell me that such a person may pull out a gun or otherwise have a shit fit for trying for being caught while trying to scam a casino table, then its on them, and on camera, and they leave.
If you tell me they "might react and pull a piece on me or someone else," then so might I or anyone else.
Usually, what happens is that they get caught in their behavior, and say.....
YOU'RE RIGHT, THE DEALER DID HAVE A FLUSH, AND NOT A PAI GOW, AND I LOST $5 WHILE GAMBLING. As it should be, in clean play on a gambling table."
Most people come to their senses and agree. It's obvious when pointed out. Five hearts make a flush. 18 beats a 17. The dealer didn't bust. Why lie about it or ignore it - except to take some easy or dirty money quietly.
How many people "roll" is clearly apparent at this board.
That's not beating the casinos.
The new generation of gamblers are smarter, since information available and they will not be fooled. AP Movies, books and TV keeps the dream alive.
If they find out its impossible to beat the casinos, because the casinos are now AP proof. Many won't bother even trying. Would you buy a gold claim, if I told you I mined it already and it was very doubtful any gold was left and you had little chance of finding any gold, but the claim was cheaper? Or would you buy the claim, that you knew had some gold left, even if you had to pay more?
You never replied to my question on if you were calling AP's scum.
Quote: AxelWolfDAN "Regular people will THEN be able to beat casinos - by having a great night because of variance - instead of someone else's illicit skill depriving them"
That's not beating the casinos.
If it's using good strategy, then its fine. You are supposed to play well.
If you are using a disallowed gimmick, be it whatever is disallowed at the table, you leave if caught.
If not caught, you're driving up loses and expenses that non-scamming players have to pay for.
The casino always keeps its lights on.
Quote: AxelwolfThe new generation of gamblers are smarter, since information available and they will not be fooled. AP Movies, books and TV keeps the dream alive.
If they find out its impossible to beat the casinos, because the casinos are now AP proof. Many won't bother even trying. Would you buy a gold claim, if I told you I mined it already and it was very doubtful any gold was left and you had little chance of finding any gold, but the claim was cheaper? Or would you buy the claim, that you knew had some gold left, even if you had to pay more?
You never replied to my question on if you were calling AP's scum.
If they are not playing by house rules - fair play game rules that are disallowed by the house offering the game, then yes.
If legal, they may be backed off and told to leave.
If Illegal, they may be arrested and booked.
And that's how it really works: People DO get backed off and 86-ed, and it's for reason.
If it's bad enough, they may also get arrested.
I DO think that when you get expelled from a gambling hall, then really, you are NOT operating on a high level in your life at all. Get thrown out of a casino or gambling hall - legal or not - you are just not a class act or acceptable gambler. Why else are you forced to leave or backed off, - at a minimum?
You get kicked out because you didn't play by the rules of a house you are a visitor in, - a guest, - a customer in.
If you don't see that this makes some sort of statement about you - or your behavior - being unacceptable when being in a house you chose to enter and be in, then fine, don't see it.
Thrown out, or backed off = You Are Rejected. On purpose, and for reason=unacceptable to even be in a gambling hall. A low statement.
I worked for years as a dealer, and if someone wasn't thrown out for being a scammer of some sort, or belligerent, he was vomiting on himself.
To get ejected from a freaking gambling hall is a very low status. And many have been there, - and no, it is not a great thing.
I believe the Wizard has been backed off of parlay cards.Quote: PaigowdanIf it's using good strategy, then its fine. You are supposed to play well.
If you are using a disallowed gimmick, be it whatever is disallowed at the table, you leave if caught.
If not caught, you're driving up loses and expenses that non-scamming players have to pay for.
The casino always keeps its lights on.
If they are not playing by house rules - fair play game rules that are disallowed by the house offering the game, then yes.
If legal, they may be backed off and told to leave.
If Illegal, they may be arrested and booked.
And that's how it really works: People DO get backed off and 86-ed, and it's for reason.
If it's bad enough, they may also get arrested.
I DO think that when you get expelled from a gambling hall, then really, you are NOT operating on a high level in your life at all. Get thrown out of a casino or gambling hall - legal or not - you are just not a class act or acceptable gambler. Why else are you forced to leave or backed off, - at a minimum?
You get kicked out because you didn't play by the rules of a house you are a visitor in, - a guest, - a customer in.
If you don't see that this makes some sort of statement about you - or your behavior - being unacceptable when being in a house you chose to enter and be in, then fine, don't see it.
So what. We've all done silly things.
Getting expelled from a gambling hall is a minor bad thing, like getting expelled from a bar. It is not something that you should say to or look back on: "Now I have arrived, Yess!!!" when looking back at it.
it's usually a minor warning sign that there is a minor issue of some sort that something is not working out in your life. Especially in gaming.
Now THIS will make very little sense to many here.
Edit: To get back to this thread's thrust [cough!] - If I ran a casino, I would:
1. Keep Shenanigans to a minimum, as would anyone. I would reasonably police it without apologies, or causing need to apologize. Those who need to leave will leave. bub-bye.
2. Keep the clean players, and even the ploppies, all happy.
3. Tell the pro's their skills are better spent on a legit carrier. a real job.
Proof of this can be found in the periods just after the 2 most popular books about the MIT team, 'bringing down the house' and 'breaking Vegas' were released. Blackjack revenues soared. Same thing happened a couple years later when the movie of the same events, '21', was released....blackjack revenue soared.
Mr Zender gave the best blueprint for dealing with blackjack. You don't worry about small time counters. You increase penetration and the increased rounds per hour of the 99.99% players that are losing will more than offset what the .01 counters are winning. Then you can stop wasting money on technology and costly rental fees of CSM's, and stop wasting manpower and manhours chasing these small time counters that are not effecting your bottom line, but are in fact increasing it because of the unsolicited advertising they bring. You concentrate only on teams of counters and the few high limit counters.
That is the blueprint for dealing with card counters, but it should be the same mentality for machine play. Having a few players that are taking advantage of your 100% games is +EV for the casino in the long run. Stop looking at everything short term. A player walking out with a couple thousand dollars is a winning longterm formula for the casino. You concentrate in the teams of players that come in and take over banks of machines.
What is required is outside the box thinking, Dan. But I don't see that coming from you. What I do see is the same pencil pusher, accountant mentality that has been destroying the casino industry for the last decade or so. And the same Oh-my-god, someone is walking out with a few buck....we gotta stop them mentality.
"My" progressives - using players cards to build your own must hit bys. They can only be accessed by you. Maybe it can be more achievement based like Xbox live.
Horrible pay tables but huge meter rises. I am a sucker for huge progressive amounts as well as a meter rise. I never play them but its interesting to see people get caught up in them. 95% games with a 3% rise would be awesome.
Something like a gamblers bonus for royals in all 4 suits.
I'm sure there are plenty of holes in my promos. I just thought I'd run through a few ideas.
Quote: kewljI see nothing has changed as far as your attitude, Dan. Your casino sounds like a recipe for disaster, for bankruptcy. The absolute best advertising for the casino industries is a few AP's beating the casino. For every small time AP, that takes a few hundred or even couple thousand bucks out if your casino over a year, there are 1000 wannabees AP, that show up and think they are playing with an advantage when they are not.
Casinos make their money from slots, craps, Pai Gow Poker, UTH, Three Card Poker, in addition to Blackjack, and most on Blackjack games are straight up players.
This leaves a SMALL percentage of wanna-be AP players or real AP players who - as a fraction of total players and action - are:
1. Wasting their own time and deluding themselves, if ineffectual and loosing, - shooting themselves in the foot while trying to essentially scam a business operation - or;
2. Wasting the casino's time if effective, AND driving costs up for everyone BUT themselves by scamming and siphoning off a business that innocent gamblers, more than the casino, end up holding the bag for, - which is kind of selfish and parasitic.
I don't see the good in it, in the sense that on the one hand, someone tries to take advantage of a business but just hangs himself trying, but if successful, what did they really succeed at? Siphoning off money by coming in on bad faith, driving up costs and house edges, killing comps and decent game rules, and bleeding honest players as the operators clamp down on everyone to stem loses and maintain revenue for operations, and justifying it all by calling the businesses and honest players that are getting ripped off either "greedy" or "dupes."
I just see unaddressed AP as a lose-lose scenario in general.
Quote: kewljOr maybe they are playing with an advantage, but don't have the bankroll to sustain their play, and end up 'contributing' to the casino coffers, just the same as any other gambler.
Not the same as any other gambler.
If you go in trying to make a casino business a dupe but you lose at it, you've made yourself a dupe. If the casino knows what you're up to and lets you lose trying, then they've made you a dupe when backing you off would have actually saved you the money and self-humiliation.
Both scenarios are silly and despicable, and involve allowing dirty money action attempts in gambling operations, if known and allowed. If you go in to have fun just from clean play, without trying to pull one over on anyone with this "work" or "pro" mindset or intention, you'll have recreation, and may win, and never get a tap on the shoulder to be told you did something wrong and have to leave.
When gambling gets to the point where your "juice" in being there actually comes from seeing what un-allowed crap you can get away with inside a gambling hall, this isn't gambling, it is something else. This, sadly, makes little sense or cannot be seen by some people.
Quote: kewljProof of this can be found in the periods just after the 2 most popular books about the MIT team, 'bringing down the house' and 'breaking Vegas' were released. Blackjack revenues soared. Same thing happened a couple years later when the movie of the same events, '21', was released....blackjack revenue soared.
Proof of what, that people will descend to their lowest common denominator? Thinking, "we can beat this game and make some money, screw the rules, other people have done it!" Yes, they will try. It is human nature. For that matter, if the power and lights go out in any major city, mobs of people will indeed loot, also thinking: "we can beat this game and take some money for us, screw the rules, other people have done it, too." And people will think like that, the "what can I get away with - what's the angle I can beat?" mindset that is common in some gamblers. VERY common with some players at casinos.
From Beat the Dealer/Thorpe, to Bringing down the House, to "A Blackjack Life" by Nathaniel Tilton, I've read them but I do not think: "I should DO this!", I think, "this is what to look for in the pit, and to avoid in game design," because it doesn't help gambling, or the industry, or people in the end, - though it is a part of it all. I study it because it is not "how to be."
Quote: kewljMr Zender gave the best blueprint for dealing with blackjack. You don't worry about small time counters. You increase penetration and the increased rounds per hour of the 99.99% players that are losing will more than offset what the .01 counters are winning. Then you can stop wasting money on technology and costly rental fees of CSM's, and stop wasting manpower and manhours chasing these small time counters that are not effecting your bottom line, but are in fact increasing it because of the unsolicited advertising they bring. You concentrate only on teams of counters and the few high limit counters.
Bill Zender gave "a" blueprint, - one of many opinions and views. The guys at Shufflemaster who designed and built the CSM didn't feel this way, disagree with Zender, and also came up with a blueprint that has THOUSANDS on units in the market. And they work. If "real" players don't play them, then they are on (the now fewer) shoes, where more eyes and resources are freed up to monitor, watch, and back off as needed because of the CSM.
If the argument that "a little bit of pilferage is good as a business stimulus in some cases," is true to a point, as the popularity of BJ increase during the Card counter boom, I agree. Yet I see the popularity of Pai Gow poker, dice, and Roulette, where both the play and the games' reps are clean. and they still get action.
Quote: kewljWhat is required is outside the box thinking, Dan. But I don't see that coming from you. What I do see is the same pencil pusher, accountant mentality that has been destroying the casino industry for the last decade or so. And the same Oh-my-god, someone is walking out with a few buck....we gotta stop them mentality.
I don't have a pencil-pusher mentality, really I don't. Game protection is 5% of my work in games and game design, as once solved, other issues are really key. An architect thinks a good bit on security and safety, but it is only a part of the building's entire design.
In my casino, on this "if I had a casino" thread, I may have more CSMs, to focus on the "good shoe games" STAYING good shoe games without being beaten down. This is not unreasonable, in fact, it is desirable. And great games across the board. And I'd note players who repeated have to be asked to give back money from dealer errors seen, if an issue.
And I'd have better rules, lower house edges, and better comps for players.
Quote: ontariodealerwould you be there????
Bob? Scantily clad?
Quote: Paigowdan
Bill Zender gave "a" blueprint, - one of many opinions and views. The guys at Shufflemaster who designed and built the CSM didn't feel this way, disagree with Zender, and also came up with a blueprint that has THOUSANDS on units in the market. And they work. If "real" players don't play them, then they are on (the now fewer) shoes, where more eyes and resources are freed up to monitor, watch, and back off as needed because of the CSM.
I'm don't want to engage in continuing back and forth on this topic. I think we've done that before, lol. But there are two points in this paragraph that I would like to address.
1. -- The guys at shuffle master, who designed and built the CSM, feel the best blue print is to put thousands of their units in the market-- OMG! You think that is an objective, opinion? They have a dog in this fight. Their interest is self serving!
2. If you or the industry thinks that card counters are the only players who won't play CSM's, you are out of touch with both reality and the very players you should be catering too. I spend a lot of time, 75,000 to 80,000 rounds at blackjack tables per year. This means I hear way too much what the poppies think. There are many, many that don't trust CSM's, especially among the 50 year old + crowd, many of whom don't trust technology in general. These are the very people (50+) that have the money. Lol. You are turning them off by using technology they don't trust. Lol
The bottom line, Dan, is you have reaffirmed the very view that became popular in the industry when the accountants placed real casino people. The accountants looked at the model and said, there is XXX amount of dollars walking out the door to advantage play. So they then spent XXXX (that would be ten times that amount) to try to reduce it. Lol. Spend a dollar to save ten cents. :-)
And you Dan, from your continuing comments, seem to take it personally. There are AP's 'stealing' your profits. You hate this as evident by your judgemental words, so you are willing to pay that dollar to stop ten cents from walking out the door. Lol. Good luck with that business model. :-)
I Don't understand, you seem a bit wishy-washy on this, or not, perhaps you just watered it down. You said this "I DO think that when you get expelled from a gambling hall, then really, you are NOT operating on a high level in your life at all. Get thrown out of a casino or gambling hall - legal or not - you are just not a class act or acceptable gambler. Why else are you forced to leave or backed off, - at a minimum?"Quote: PaigowdanBoth Mike and Eliot have been ejected or backed off at times.
So what. We've all done silly things.
Getting expelled from a gambling hall is a minor bad thing, like getting expelled from a bar. It is not something that you should say to or look back on: "Now I have arrived, Yess!!!" when looking back at it.
it's usually a minor warning sign that there is a minor issue of some sort that something is not working out in your life. Especially in gaming.
Now THIS will make very little sense to many here.
Edit: To get back to this thread's thrust [cough!] - If I ran a casino, I would:
1. Keep Shenanigans to a minimum, as would anyone. I would reasonably police it without apologies, or causing need to apologize. Those who need to leave will leave. bub-bye.
2. Keep the clean players, and even the ploppies, all happy.
3. Tell the pro's their skills are better spent on a legit carrier. a real job.
Then you toned it down, once I stated the wizard has been backed off. Your clear statement basically said many well respected gaming authority's (including Mike) are not class act's and are NOT operating on a high level in their life at all.
Should I make a list of fairly respected people who have been backed off? We could start off with Mission146 since he was the last person, I knew of that was backed off. Then we could follow that up with Bob Dancer, since he has been backed off and probably 86'ed many times. Or should we start in alphabetical order? Off the top of my head we could add Anthony Curtis to the list of people who have been 86'ed.
Quote: sodawaterHa, APs "fleece" normal gamblers? Now I have heard it all. That is truly a perverse way of looking at it.
Not really, especially not on slots.
Suppose a progressive slot game has a 95% overall payback. If APs only play when the meter pushes the game over 100%, that depresses the average RTP for the other gamblers. This problem was far worse with the accumulator slots back in the 1990s, when you needed to collect, say, 10 badges to trigger a bonus round. Because the number of already-collected badges were displayed on the screen, savvy players would jump on a machine when there were 7 or 8, play until hitting the bonus round, and then cash out. That was a hugely +EV play. The other players started with an empty badge collection and had a significantly worse RTP than the par sheet indicated.
And then there's the issue of attempting to influence the dice in craps. If a skilled dice thrower (assuming the existence thereof) were to change the probabilities such that your bets were more likely to lose while theirs were more likely to win, it's not a stretch to characterize that as fleecing you. If you expect a game with an understood set of odds, and you don't get those odds because someone else is manipulating the dice, I can't imagine you're too happy about it.
Quote: IbeatyourAcesWhen it comes to table games, other than CC'ing BJ, if your employees are doing their jobs properly, there will be no AP's.
Yes, but ALL business can count on "not all employees are doing their jobs properly all the time!"
This is key: People - employees - make mistakes, and think "this is the boss's problem. WTF." - You can count on that.
For this reason, systems - machines, procedures, etc., - HAVE to be more error proof.
1. Design I-deal or shufflers that dispense cards as they are needed, not dump the flop and dealer's hole cards WAY BEFORE they are needed - giving rise to edge sorting and hole-carding the dealer's hand and/or community board. Huge.
2. CSMs work. Hugely expenses because of one supplier.
3. Notching the discard rack to be used as a consistent cut-card depth measurement.
4. Sliding a cut card under the dealer's packet, or not pulling the dealer's cards until all have played or folded in 3-card poker.
A LOT of loss from AP is casino business/dealer operational slop.
Quote: kewljI'm don't want to engage in continuing back and forth on this topic. I think we've done that before, lol. But there are two points in this paragraph that I would like to address.
1. -- The guys at shuffle master, who designed and built the CSM, feel the best blue print is to put thousands of their units in the market-- OMG! You think that is an objective, opinion? They have a dog in this fight. Their interest is self serving!
Yes, it is business serving, - but it also serves customer game protection. I guarantee you, it is pitched as a selling point to operators.
Quote: kewlj2. If you or the industry thinks that card counters are the only players who won't play CSM's, you are out of touch with both reality and the very players you should be catering too. I spend a lot of time, 75,000 to 80,000 rounds at blackjack tables per year. This means I hear way too much what the poppies think. There are many, many that don't trust CSM's, especially among the 50 year old + crowd, many of whom don't trust technology in general. These are the very people (50+) that have the money. Lol. You are turning them off by using technology they don't trust. Lol
Yes, not all table game players trust machines, be it on PGP or Blackjack or Poker carny games, true.
But PGP is now ONLY dealt by machine; who sees hand-dealt PGP anymore. You'll ALWAYS have a certain percentage of old-school thinkers who yearn for the old days and the old way of doing things. Countless examples can be given.
Quote: kewljThe bottom line, Dan, is you have reaffirmed the very view that became popular in the industry when the accountants placed real casino people. The accountants looked at the model and said, there is XXX amount of dollars walking out the door to advantage play. So they then spent XXXX (that would be ten times that amount) to try to reduce it. Lol. Spend a dollar to save ten cents. :-)
I say spend a dime to save a dollar in losses.
The concept that "you can make money off of AP's" has two problems:
1. That essentially "the pilferers are a great source of customer income, and a business boom," looking at it in exactly that way. It is not, even though the "beat-ability perception" had pumped up BJ sales at one time. Firstly, it is fundamentally dishonest for a business to promote the idea that it is "great to patronize us" because "You can Rip Us The Hell Off, - So Come on Down!" - only to nail competent AP-ers. Absolutely Fundamentally dishonest and a total crock. Compare this to honest advertisements of loose machines with accurate percentage adverts, and our own Mike Shackleford reporting game info for the industry to effect this.
2. That game protection mechanisms have to cost more than the problem. They don't, and only had because the industry was just so far behind that they were ignorant and cost-ineffective in what they tried to implement. When ANY industry successfully and cost effectively cuts down on any fraud or pilferage, savings are passed on for the legitimate customer, be it auto insurance, lodging, transportation, or any field.
Quote: kewljAnd you Dan, from your continuing comments, seem to take it personally. There are AP's 'stealing' your profits. You hate this as evident by your judgemental words, so you are willing to pay that dollar to stop ten cents from walking out the door. Lol. Good luck with that business model. :-)
Thanks. And I actually don't take it personally, it's just business, and fascinating to explore. Really. I do think you're a great poster and fine contributor here, and I DON'T want you to think disagreements are personal when engaging.
Quote: PaigowdanYet I see the popularity of Pai Gow poker, dice, and Roulette, where both the play and the games' reps are clean. and they still get action.
All three of those games can be beaten, at least according to popular lore, by well-publicized methods. Many Pai Gow games are countable, at least the side bets. There is, as you're aware, an active subculture of attempted dice influence, and a far-older subculture around roulette bias detection or wheel clocking. Do you think as many people would play roulette or craps in a casino if, rather than using a ball or dice, the dealer simply tapped an iPhone and a game result was produced via PRNG?*
Actually, you don't even need to go that far -- at G2E a few years ago there was a European company offering a air blower/ ball hopper version of roulette, like the old keno or lotto drawing machines just with 37 or 38 balls instead. The value proposition was immediately clear: the number draw took half the time, so you could -- if you wanted -- have twice as many games per hour as a roulette game with the traditional rotating wheel. But has any casino in the US ever put one in?
*Note the caveat "in a casino" because using an RNG is how online casinos operate, and online roulette is quite popular in Europe.
I would definitely have a strict appearance policy amongst all staff.
I do not agree with the "toning down" of standards becoming more prevalent in today's casino environment. This includes not only uniforms, but also physical appearance.
Both smoking and nonsmoking areas. I would not want to do business in an area that was completely smoke-free, even if I personally sided with the idea. I'm in business.
Concerning table games, there seems to be a loss of the "showmanship" that seemed to be the standard in years past. I would integrate a training program to bring that back.
For now, no comment on AP.
I would find a way to take advantage of the tremendous house edge on a game such as Big Six.
As an example, hang teddy bears above the area as an option on the high payouts. Make it the carnival game it truly is.
Place the game near the exit and get the last few dollars on the way out. Let the guy spend $20 trying to win the d****d teddy bear for his sweetie; we witness it at county fairs and festivals all the time.
Perfect promotion for Valentines Day, wedding parties, etc.
I would not have a poker machine over 98%. I don't care if the video poker players complain because those aren't the players that are profitable anyway.
Video slots would be at 87% and my promotions would be very biased to the slot players.
Lot's of Carnival table games.
