After the point is established, I simply set the die to all sevens around. I start by facing the sixes vertically (like "trees") then turn them quickly to the left and rotate the right die until all sevens show, including a six on the left and one on the right.

The theory here is hold them tight and then throw them hard, I bank on the fact that the odds of them landing exactly how I threw them (hard) is not as likely as the same pattern.

Any thoughts?

edit: If it works, PM me next time you are in Vegas (I reside here). Let's go make some $$$

Quote:Mitcher69I already know ahead of time that I'm going to get some heat on this BUT out of 50 sessions, I've had 25 winnings ones, 15 that were about break even and only 5 that were losers.

After the point is established, I simply set the die to all sevens around. I start by facing the sixes vertically (like "trees") then turn them quickly to the left and rotate the right die until all sevens show, including a six on the left and one on the right.

The theory here is hold them tight and then throw them hard, I bank on the fact that the odds of them landing exactly how I threw them (hard) is not as likely as the same pattern.

Any thoughts?

Enjoy your good fortune while it lasts!

Quote:Mitcher69I already know ahead of time that I'm going to get some heat on this BUT out of 50 sessions, I've had 25 winnings ones, 15 that were about break even and only 5 that were losers.

After the point is established, I simply set the die to all sevens around. I start by facing the sixes vertically (like "trees") then turn them quickly to the left and rotate the right die until all sevens show, including a six on the left and one on the right.

The theory here is hold them tight and then throw them hard, I bank on the fact that the odds of them landing exactly how I threw them (hard) is not as likely as the same pattern.

Any thoughts?

Have you considered investing in a good quality barometer? Atmospheric pressure may have been less than ideal during your five losses. A farmer's almanac is a must-have for every craps AP.

Correct and corrected.

Quote:Dyvan13Oh lawdy. Here we go.

edit: If it works, PM me next time you are in Vegas (I reside here). Let's go make some $$$

I'm in Colorado but if I have continued success with this, I will update.

Quote:Mitcher69I already know ahead of time that I'm going to get some heat on this BUT out of 50 sessions, I've had 30 winnings ones, 15 that were about break even and only 5 that were losers.

After the point is established, I simply set the die to all sevens around. I start by facing the sixes vertically (like "trees") then turn them quickly to the left and rotate the right die until all sevens show, including a six on the left and one on the right.

The theory here is hold them tight and then throw them hard, I bank on the fact that the odds of them landing exactly how I threw them (hard) is not as likely as the same pattern.

Any thoughts?

Listen, I totally agree. If you set the dice up as any seven, and then throw them really hard and really tight, the chances of avoiding a 7 are over 83%. That's practically a lock.

Quote:Dyvan13edit: If it works, PM me next time you are in Vegas (I reside here). Let's go make some $$$

You don't need anybody to try this. Do it yourself. Here is a conspiracy theory: Why doesn't the stick send the dice back on sevens? Oh we know the standard answer, bad luck, so they say, but maybe there is more to this practice.......Que Twilight Zone theme music!!

Quote:DeMangoYou don't need anybody to try this. Do it yourself. Here is a conspiracy theory: Why doesn't the stick send the dice back on sevens? Oh we know the standard answer, bad luck, so they say, but maybe there is more to this practice.......Que Twilight Zone theme music!!

All I can say is when I don't do this and pick them up and throw randomly, the seven shows more often.

Maybe it is mostly metaphysics but craps is kind of a superstitious game anyway.

True funny story:

I was up at Cripple Creek in the summer some years back and on a table where a guy from Texas was on a massive roll, you could feel the energy. Suddenly out of nowhere comes a pale overweight couple from Kansas (not judging---just setting the scene). The woman of the two comes up to the table and says to her husband "Isn't this the game where you're not supposed to throw a seven"

The shooter goes ballistic!! He starts yelling at them and her for what seemed like a minute.

Finally they slink away, he picks up the dice and throws.

You guessed it.... seven out ;)

Quote:Mitcher69I already know ahead of time that I'm going to get some heat on this BUT out of 50 sessions, I've had 30 winnings ones, 15 that were about break even and only 5 that were losers.

After the point is established, I simply set the die to all sevens around. I start by facing the sixes vertically (like "trees") then turn them quickly to the left and rotate the right die until all sevens show, including a six on the left and one on the right.

The theory here is hold them tight and then throw them hard, I bank on the fact that the odds of them landing exactly how I threw them (hard) is not as likely as the same pattern.

Any thoughts?

I decided to test your theory on my final roll of the day today.

Started with 6 6 on top and 4 3 facing. Stacked the 6s vertically and turned them left towards the table. This gave me 6-1 on the outside, 5-2 and 4-3 all around (basic all 7 set). I rolled a long time but didn't keep count. My wife and I had to leave because we had puppy duty and only a short time to play today but I'm going to try this out again. I definitely heard some people muttering while I set this. I would have to roll using this set a minimum of 10 turns and on several nights to see if there is any truth to it. I thought for sure I'd 7-out in a couple of rolls and hear groans.

Quote:DeMangoYou don't need anybody to try this. Do it yourself. Here is a conspiracy theory: Why doesn't the stick send the dice back on sevens? Oh we know the standard answer, bad luck, so they say, but maybe there is more to this practice.......Que Twilight Zone theme music!!

if we did, everyone over 60 would shit their pants.

Yes because that's very scientific. I get it now.Quote:JoelDezeI would have to roll using this set a minimum of 10 turns and on several nights to see if there is any truth to it.

Quote:AxelWolfYes because that's very scientific. I get it now.

Absolutely. I'll call it the AxelWolf Cognitive Craps Test.

Please I insist you claim and name it after yourself.Quote:JoelDezeAbsolutely. I'll call it the AxelWolf Cognitive Craps Test.

I'll never understand why seemingly well educated, smart individuals who have good math skills and have been gambling for year's have some crazy ass gambling theories and believe in a bunch of cockamami crap. Yet there's twenty something year old kids, guys who road the rails and hit the bottle, people with very little education, people who by all reasonable logic should be the ones who have crazy theories and hairbraind ideas, yet they don't and they get it.

The more I think about it it seems to be almost random who gets it and who doesn't.

In your case you have some websites service or whatever, so I don't even know if you yourself really believe in whatever your trying to "sell us".

Quote:AxelWolfPlease I insist you claim and name it after yourself.

I'll never understand why seemingly well educated, smart individuals who have good math skills and have been gambling for year's have some crazy ass gambling theories and believe in a bunch of cockamami crap. Yet there's twenty something year old kids, guys who road the rails and hit the bottle, people with very little education, people who by all reasonable logic should be the ones who have crazy theories and hairbraind ideas, yet they don't and they get it.

The more I think about it it seems to be almost random who gets it and who doesn't.

In your case you have some websites service or whatever, so I don't even know if you yourself really believe in whatever your trying to "sell us".

I think you misunderstand. I was actually making a joke. Would it have helped if I said that using this system I definitely have an 83% chance to avoid the 7 entirely?

There is a 15.63% chance to hit the 7 with this dice set.

There is a 70% chance to hit the 7 on the 2-5 or 5-2 combined.

There is a 29-30% chance to hit the 7 on the 3-4 or 4-3 combined.

There is under a 1% chance to hit the 7 on the 1-6 or 6-1 combined.

The advantage using this set would be to hop only the 5-2.

$1 units

First 5 rolls:

1/1/1/1/1

If the 7 hits on the 5th roll you lose $4 and receive $16. Net return is $12.

Next 5 rolls:

$2 units

2/2/2/2/2

If the 7 hits on the 10th roll you lose $13 and receive $32. Net return is $19.

Next 5 rolls:

$4 units

If the 7 hits on the 15th roll you lose $31 and receive $60. Net return is $29.

Quote:JoelDeze

There is a 15.63% chance to hit the 7 with this dice set.

There is a 70% chance to hit the 7 on the 2-5 or 5-2 combined.

There is a 29-30% chance to hit the 7 on the 3-4 or 4-3 combined.

There is under a 1% chance to hit the 7 on the 1-6 or 6-1 combined.

How does one politely say, the heart of your argument, mathematically of course, is pure bovine feces?

Where is that extreme math guy when you need him???

Quote:JoelDezeFrom a mathematical point of view, considering axis roll tests:

There is a 15.63% chance to hit the 7 with this dice set.

There is a 70% chance to hit the 7 on the 2-5 or 5-2 combined.

There is a 29-30% chance to hit the 7 on the 3-4 or 4-3 combined.

There is under a 1% chance to hit the 7 on the 1-6 or 6-1 combined.

I'm no math wizard, but how in hell did you get a lower percentage of rolling a 7 with this set then just throwing randomly?

You say there's a 15.63% of a seven with this set when there is always a 16.67% of rolling a seven....

Just saying that either my calculator lied to me or you got your percentages wrong.

Quote:JoelDezeI decided to test your theory on my final roll of the day today.

Started with 6 6 on top and 4 3 facing. Stacked the 6s vertically and turned them left towards the table. This gave me 6-1 on the outside, 5-2 and 4-3 all around (basic all 7 set). I rolled a long time but didn't keep count. My wife and I had to leave because we had puppy duty and only a short time to play today but I'm going to try this out again. I definitely heard some people muttering while I set this. I would have to roll using this set a minimum of 10 turns and on several nights to see if there is any truth to it. I thought for sure I'd 7-out in a couple of rolls and hear groans.

Hi Joel,

Thanks for the update and giving it a try.

The key, I feel is to get a lot of action on the dice so that they tumble frequently.

I set them so quickly and subtly that no one even notices what I'm doing. As long as they're winning, they are happy.

Good luck in the future and let us know how you do next time.

Quote:ontariodealerif we did, everyone over 60 would shit their pants.

Good thing I am a very young 56 and open-minded ;)

Quote:Wildwillis1I'm no math wizard, but how in hell did you get a lower percentage of rolling a 7 with this set then just throwing randomly?

You say there's a 15.63% of a seven with this set when there is always a 16.67% of rolling a seven....

Just saying that either my calculator lied to me or you got your percentages wrong.

Dice Set | AL | AR | CC1L | CC1R | CC2L | CC2R | CC3L | CC3R | Totals |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

25-34 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 5 | |

3 | 4 | 6 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | ||

5 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 5 | 2 | ||

4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 6 | 6 | ||

7-Combos | 4 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 20 | |

1 | 2 | 5 | 2,5 | ||||||

2 | 3 | 4 | 3,4 | ||||||

3 | 5 | 2 | 5,2 | ||||||

4 | 4 | 3 | 4,3 | ||||||

5 | 2 | 5 | 2,5 | ||||||

6 | 5 | 2 | 5,2 | ||||||

7 | 2 | 5 | 2,5 | ||||||

8 | 3 | 4 | 3,4 | ||||||

9 | 5 | 2 | 5,2 | ||||||

10 | 4 | 3 | 4,3 | ||||||

11 | 2 | 5 | 2,5 | ||||||

12 | 5 | 2 | 5,2 | ||||||

13 | 5 | 2 | 5,2 | ||||||

14 | 2 | 5 | 2,5 | ||||||

15 | 5 | 2 | 5,2 | ||||||

16 | 4 | 3 | 4,3 | ||||||

17 | 2 | 5 | 2,5 | ||||||

18 | 3 | 4 | 3,4 | ||||||

19 | 5 | 2 | 5,2 | ||||||

20 | 2 | 5 | 2,5 | ||||||

# Comb. | 128 | ||||||||

1,6 | 0 | ||||||||

6,1 | 0 | ||||||||

2,5 | 7 | ||||||||

5,2 | 7 | ||||||||

3,4 | 3 | ||||||||

4,3 | 3 | ||||||||

15.63% |

If you don't understand I don't really have time to explain it to you.

Number | Rolled? | Pct |
---|---|---|

2 | 0 | 0.00% |

3 | 4 | 3.13% |

4 | 11 | 8.59% |

5 | 14 | 10.94% |

6 | 17 | 13.28% |

7 | 20 | 15.63% |

8 | 17 | 13.28% |

9 | 14 | 10.94% |

10 | 11 | 8.59% |

11 | 4 | 3.13% |

12 | 0 | 0.00% |

Quote:JoelDezeThese are the set percentages as well for numbers for this set.

Number Rolled? Pct 2 0 0.00% 3 4 3.13% 4 11 8.59% 5 14 10.94% 6 17 13.28% 7 20 15.63% 8 17 13.28% 9 14 10.94% 10 11 8.59% 11 4 3.13% 12 0 0.00%

So from what I'm understanding here, using this set, I can alter the possible sets for a set of two 6 sided dice?

Maybe your right. If this is a true real life roll session then maybe. However, your numbers are by far to consist for that...

So can you explain your system a little better for me? I don't dice set or try to di, so I'm just wondering how you have defeated the randomness of your dice.

Quote:DanMahoneyHarley are u back? I thought Harley and Rick got the boot here. This tossing strategy is very similar to Harley's hard toss to counter the effects of gravity used to defeat bias dice. One of his 99 craps points taught at the recent American Craps Academy in Vegas.

They are still here, Rick is in good standing, Harley is on his third persona.

Quote:Wildwillis1

So can you explain your system a little better for me? I don't dice set or try to di, so I'm just wondering how you have defeated the randomness of your dice.

No one here will agree entirely to what I'm about to say but I'll say it anyways.

You can find information here: Axis Dice Settings

I'm a math guy so I understand all of the probability calculations and scenarios in craps. I have a high capacity for logic, abstractions, reasoning, numbers and critical thinking. I have a photographic memory. I am a dedicated problem solver by nature. I created my own online craps game that uses true random numbers (through atmospheric noise generation) instead of pseudo-random number generators from computer programs. I've built more than 20,000,000 simulations and the probability for random simulations correlates well with that of probability estimates over the course of a "long simulation". On short simulation tests I see a lot of variance. Trying to mirror live play through a computer program is nearly impossible.

In live play people can be grouped by the following characteristics:

a. People that set the dice but still throw them all over the place. (a dice setting random roller)

b. People that set the dice and have a fluid consistent motion (who believe they can influence the dice). (a dice setter with random tendencies)

c. People that grab the dice, swirl their arms and hands around the table before throwing them (these are people that used to play Wizards in dungeons and dragons because they think they are conjuring minor cheese demons through somatic spell casting). (a true random roller)

d. People that grab the dice as they are handed and toss them wherever they please. (a true random roller)

e. Superstitious people that need to have the dice flipped, turned, or adjusted a certain way before the stickman gives them the dice. (a pseudo dice setter)

The random rollers I have tracked over time generally 7-out somewhere between 2-6 rolls. (the C, D people)

The (E people) tend to 7-out between 2-8 rolls.

The (A people) are hard to track. They throw it in the middle, in the corner, short the rolls, hit chips, toss the dice off the table, etc. Due to the locations being all over the map it is almost impossible to determine whether or not a specific roll is random or influenced.

The (B people) are the ones I care about. So, I'll discuss these in more detail.

You can refer to dice settings here: Dice Settings

The B People

These guys and gals can be divided into groupings as well. Keep in mind all of these people set the dice and roll a consistent fluid motion.

1. Type One always sets the dice the same way on the come out roll and after the point has been set. No additional dice settings are observed.

2. Type Two sets the dice to the (All-7s set) on the come out roll and then sets the dice to one familiar set only.

3. Type Three uses multiple sets. They will set the dice to all-7s on the come out roll and depending on the number rolled, will change the dice setting to account for best matched numbers in the set.

I've tracked all of these types of people and while all of them tend to have a longer average roll (above 8), the ones that had my attention were type 3. I've seen consistent examples of dice influence for some people that I've watched over time. If the person has a lengthy roll I make a note of the set that was used. I note the type of throw the person made and the numbers that come up. I write them down and record the set.

What I've found is that everyone has their own hitch. It's a lot like scouting a baseball player. For craps players you have people that use wind motions, open-fingers when releasing, inaccurate release points, and the list goes on. I don't want to track this information myself so the simplest way to account for them is that at times, the dice will turn or spin on one or both while the person uses the set.

In my tables I account for all of those off-setting behaviors. The combinations account for all of the combinations available for someone that is trying to use as little motion as possible while using a specific dice set. If they are consistent with their motion, the numbers are very accurate.

Quote:JoelDezec. People that grab the dice, swirl their arms and hands around the table before throwing them (these are people that used to play Wizards in dungeons and dragons because they think they are conjuring minor cheese demons through somatic spell casting). (a true random roller)

Gotta say I've seen this. Even done it myself, albeit when I'm a little drunk. However this gave me a good laugh.

Quote:JoelDezeIn my tables I account for all of those off-setting behaviors. The combinations account for all of the combinations available for someone that is trying to use as little motion as possible while using a specific dice set. If they are consistent with their motion, the numbers are very accurate.

So from your calculations, and proper and accurate documentation of rolls, you've come up with these numbers. If you have hard facts, which most people on here tend to believe in from what I've gathered, I would lean towards believing you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way saying your lying or are a fool for believing this, I'm just hesitate to jumping on board with it.

I've noticed something along the same lines in the past. While I was playing craps at Hollywood Slots Bangor, I have this older gentleman who set and threw his dice in a certain way, didn't really pay attention to what that set was, however he did tend to roll longer and had an unusual amount of 4s being rolled by him. After his second time having the dice and noticing this, I bought the 4 for $100 and ended up leaving the table when he did being up $5000(only started with $250), my largest day for craps. So I do think di is possible.

Quote:Wildwillis1So from your calculations, and proper and accurate documentation of rolls, you've come up with these numbers. .

Let's take a look at all of the elements of dice control and what occurs during a standard throw.

Set the dice. (parallel to the back end of the table)

Stand at the back of the table (direct center).

Throw the dice to the other end of the table with a soft fluid motion (direct center).

In terms of this hypothetical throw, you are tossing the dice backhand with your middle+ring finger in the front of the dice and your thumb in the back.

As the dice are in the air, the following things are happening:

The dice are elevating (moving along the y-Axis). The rotation should be circular (imagine a swing).

The dice are considered an "at rest" object in terms of inertia, force and velocity. Your hand is to the dice as your car and seat are to you.

Due to the dice moving in a circular path from the swing of your throw you have centripetal force changing the direction at the center of the dice, but not the speed of the dice.

Your thumb is separating the left and right die so that the left die is now turning counter clockwise and the right die is turning clockwise. The exact amount is dependent on the force of your throw.

The principal rotation along the z-Axis is spinning greater than the principal rotation along the x and y axis.

The likelihood of the dice turning more than 4 die faces along the x and y axis is impossible on a 12 foot or shorter table using any soft throw.

When the dice hit the table the backwards spin of the principal rotation along the z-Axis of the dice will slow the momentum.

The dice should gently touch the back of the table and come to rest.

The table information I presented you accounts for the principal x, y and z rotational axis influences depending when the dice are set and how they are set. In the case of the chart I showed in this thread it is relational to the All-7s set. I've accounted for all possible combinations using this method with this particular dice set.

Personally, I prefer the 64 (top) and 56 (facing) set. It has slightly more than a 14% chance for the 7 to hit. Read my other thread for better details.

All you need during a session is one good roll combined with proper betting strategies to walk away a winner.

Left up almost $200.

Quote:Mitcher69Just a quick update, played on a semi cold to cold table until it was my turn, hit 20 numbers in a row but couldn't make the point of 4.

Left up almost $200.

Congrats! Keep it up!

Quote:Mitcher69I already know ahead of time that I'm going to get some heat on this BUT out of 50 sessions, I've had 30 winnings ones, 15 that were about break even and only 5 that were losers.

After the point is established, I simply set the die to all sevens around. I start by facing the sixes vertically (like "trees") then turn them quickly to the left and rotate the right die until all sevens show, including a six on the left and one on the right.

The theory here is hold them tight and then throw them hard, I bank on the fact that the odds of them landing exactly how I threw them (hard) is not as likely as the same pattern.

Any thoughts?

I pretty much throw with a dice set 7 these days but I don't believe you want a hard throw. More often then not if it hits the backboard and rolls back a few feet I have a sinking feeling it will be a seven out. I played a lot this way at barona and it may have influenced them to reshuffle the deck after every roll that made it much tougher to do the set 7. Probably that and the fact my face became recognizable and the numbers guys would pass the dice back to me

Quote:Hoben01I pretty much throw with a dice set 7 these days but I don't believe you want a hard throw. More often then not if it hits the backboard and rolls back a few feet I have a sinking feeling it will be a seven out. I played a lot this way at barona and it may have influenced them to reshuffle the deck after every roll that made it much tougher to do the set 7. Probably that and the fact my face became recognizable and the numbers guys would pass the dice back to me

Card dice and setting the dice? There must be something I don't get.

But I suspect I do understand enough about card dice and , well, you are not for real. Nice try.

Quote:odiousgambitCard dice and setting the dice? There must be something I don't get.

But I suspect I do understand enough about card dice and , well, you are not for real. Nice try.

California casinos are not by law allowed to have craps like Vegas so they have to introduce some gimmick for the game. Couldn't care what you think I got pissed at barona when they would bypass me at the table

Quote:WizardofnothingOk then maybe I misunderstood- what are you accomplishing. By setting the dice in card craps

I was thinking the same thing. No point at all ever, but even less in card craps.

Just last week I was on a table which had a nice flow and we were making numbers. An older gentlemen cashed in in the middle of a good roll. I immediately went off my bets and stayed off. The next roll was a 7 out. The next roller point 7ed out. The next roller was the older gentlemen who proceeded to play with the dice for a minute or two, placing the numbers on the dice exactly where he wanted them. Then turned the dice 4 or 5 times. Then slowly swung his hand back an forth with what appeared to be a precise throwing motion. He then ever so smoothly threw the dice to the exact spot he was aiming for by the back cushion. The dice bounced and spun to his exact specification.... and when they stopped tumbling and spinning, the outcome was a 7 out!

Coincidence?

If it wasn't, why did you leave? If you ever find someone who can throw 7s on demand and you leave the table, you've squandered the opportunity of a lifetime...Quote:WatchMeWinThe next roller was the older gentlemen who proceeded to play with the dice for a minute or two, placing the numbers on the dice exactly where he wanted them. Then turned the dice 4 or 5 times. Then slowly swung his hand back an forth with what appeared to be a precise throwing motion. He then ever so smoothly threw the dice to the exact spot he was aiming for by the back cushion. The dice bounced and spun to his exact specification.... and when they stopped tumbling and spinning, the outcome was a 7 out!

Coincidence?

2. learn its meaning.

3. pickup dice and throw them.

Quote:Mitcher69

After the point is established, I simply set the die to all sevens around. I start by facing the sixes vertically (like "trees") then turn them quickly to the left and rotate the right die until all sevens show, including a six on the left and one on the right.

The theory here is hold them tight and then throw them hard, I bank on the fact that the odds of them landing exactly how I threw them (hard) is not as likely as the same pattern.

Any thoughts?

I lost 7k last night playing machines! I would love to get it back as soon as possible. Please message me if your in Vegas so I can follow you around and I will give you 10% of my winnings... and if I lose... don't worry about it... I just want to get even!

Quote:WatchMeWinIve been playing dice for over 20 years. The things that I stay away from most are people who stop the flow of the dice by buying in in the middle of a nice roll, negative angry people cussing on the table, and people that play with the dice for 3 minutes every time before they shoot it trying to control the outcome.

Just last week I was on a table which had a nice flow and we were making numbers. An older gentlemen cashed in in the middle of a good roll. I immediately went off my bets and stayed off. The next roll was a 7 out. The next roller point 7ed out. The next roller was the older gentlemen who proceeded to play with the dice for a minute or two, placing the numbers on the dice exactly where he wanted them. Then turned the dice 4 or 5 times. Then slowly swung his hand back an forth with what appeared to be a precise throwing motion. He then ever so smoothly threw the dice to the exact spot he was aiming for by the back cushion. The dice bounced and spun to his exact specification.... and when they stopped tumbling and spinning, the outcome was a 7 out!

Coincidence?

I hope you know that by posting this nonsense almost anything else you write will be suspect.....if I can paraphrase the wizard, when it comes to gaming you don't merit serious consideration.