NGC and Dice Setting

This was given as an official position of the Nevada Gaming Commission on the subject of dice setting, controlled shooting and the difference with dice sliding and cheating:

Q: "Does the Gaming Commission recognize the efficacy of so-called "dice setting" by gamblers as a means to reliably produce non-random results of dice throws, in the same way it recognizes the efficacy of dice sliding?"

A: "Sliding (dice) is illegal because in sliding they don't bounce or roll the dice, and the dice don't bounce off the back wall. In sliding the same numbers are always known, and that's cheating. But if the dice bounce and hit the back wall that's okay and they can set them (the dice) any way they want to. The difference with a controlled throw is that there is still a bounce and the dice are in the air."

Q: "Does the Gaming Commission then consider "dice setting" to fall under the definition of "cheating"?

A: "No, as long as the dice fly in the air, bounce on the table, and hit the back wall. In some cases the casinos are lenient about the dice not hitting the back wall, and these are still legal throws, no cheating."

Q: "Why is dice sliding banned, but dice setting not banned, if both are considered effective means to alter the random outcome of dice?"

A: "Dice sliding is a method of cheating, but as long as dice fly in the air, bounce and hit the back wall it doesn't matter how they are set. It's not cheating as long as the dice fly in the air and bounce."

Nothing there even remotely surprising, but nice to see it written down.

So if you throw in the air, bounce, hit the back wall and the casino gives you flack can you get them in trouble with the gaming commission?

Where does it say they believe that setting the dice is an effective means to alter the random outcome of dice?

the "if both are considered effective..." part of the question is very important, if "if both" is not true.

Quote: Wonko33

So if you throw in the air, bounce, hit the back wall and the casino gives you flack can you get them in trouble with the gaming commission?

If they refuse to pay a winning bet, yes.

Casinos do not have to let you play. But once they let you play they are bound by the rules.

Card counting is not unlawful but the casinos don't have to let you play.

Quote: Dalex64

Where does it say they believe that setting the dice is an effective means to alter the random outcome of dice?.

It doesn't.

This question

Q: "Why is dice sliding banned, but dice setting not banned, if both are considered effective means to alter the random outcome of dice?"

suggests that someone thinks that the casino thinks that dice setting is an effective means to alter the random outcome of dice. From what you posted, I didn't see anything to suggest that the casinos think this, thus my question.

A better answer to me would be, rather than what was provided: dice sliding is banned but dice setting is not banned because dice setting has not been shown to be an effective means to alter the random outcome of dice, but dice sliding has.

Yes casinos are bound by the rules of law. As we all (should) know, this oftentimes doesn't mean much. If you short roll, they CAN (illegally) free-roll themselves and declare roll or no-roll after the dice settle. I've seen enough shady sh** in my time...but it's almost exclusively done against awful players (super fleas), so I didn't care much. But, I've heard of MUCH worse than I've actually seen. Some legal, some illegal, but mostly grey-area stuff. Usually due to players trying to late bet, then either booking the bet or not booking the bet based on what the first die settles on (of course, you'd only book a "yo" bet if the first die lands on 1-4, but not if it settled on 5 or 6). And that's pretty far on the light-grey side of grey-area stuff.

Nothing new here.

They feel like I do: dice setting is harmless.

Now, if they believed it actually worked, they'd prohibit it as cheating.

Quote: MrV

Nothing new here.

They feel like I do: dice setting is harmless.

Now, if they believed it actually worked, they'd prohibit it as cheating.

I have seen, and received, significant heat for folks who set their dice; and not just at small or medium joints. Even the big boys sweat dice setters. Therefore, while it may actually be harmless, I don't think it is perceived that way by the casinos. If they understood and believed that it had no effect, why the heat?

Quote: RS

But, I've heard of MUCH worse than I've actually seen. Some legal, some illegal, but mostly grey-area stuff. Usually due to players trying to late bet, then either booking the bet or not booking the bet based on what the first die settles on (of course, you'd only book a "yo" bet if the first die lands on 1-4, but not if it settled on 5 or 6). And that's pretty far on the light-grey side of grey-area stuff.

Conditionally booking a Yo bet only when the first die lands on 1-4 means the "bet" has 100% house edge. That would be a direct casino violation of several NGC regulations. I don't see how that's grey-area in the slightest.