Explain

I have asked this before. I got one answer, but I'm not buying the answer that seemed like a lame excuse.

I'm bringing it up again because me and Djatc when to get something to eat. We noticed a friend of mine playing craps. He is not an AP and works however he plays some +EV poker.

Background:
He is not an AP and works, however he plays some +EV poker oftentimes finding the best poker promotions.
Unknown to me at the time, He took one of them dumb DI classes a few years ago(yet another sucker I know who wasted money). I don't think he understands craps/DI very well, especially the proper sets and the odds. His shot looks great(if DI were possible he'd be a candidate) . Hes into health and fitness. He's a smart well liked guy and a good friend(hes got your back and their if you need him no questions asked), but hes allays looking for a get rich quick idea. He is superstitious and believes in some crazy stuff. We defiantly clash when it come to all his conspiracy mumbo-jumbo BS . He knows not to engage to much conversation about that crap with me because m not having it.

Anyways this really isn't about him other than the fact that even he can see the value in shooting on a half size table( table sectioned halfway off with wall ). you can literally shoot where your had is only about 18'' from the wall when you release the dice ( he didn't even hit the back wall 2 times I noticed). They let you set the dice shoot soft and DI all you want.

Someone explain why DI's are not on this like white on rice? Please no BS claiming that you practice from 5 fee away, so 18" will mess you up. That's like saying you can hit a target from 100 feet away but you cant hit it from 20 feet away.

Even if it did mess you up at the beginning. I have to imagine it wouldn't take that long to readjust. There has to be less bouncing and more control/influence from a significantly shorter distance. Why wouldn't someone want better conditions? Not to mention there's no chips near the wall or people in between you and the wall, nothing to mess you up. Usually you're by yourself or 1 other person. The dice come to you faster and you can get into a rhythm.

The only logical reason I can think of, that there are not any"real DI's" crushing this place because there are not any real DI's. They would rather pretend they have an advantage at their favorite casino.

Quote: AxelWolf

Someone explain why DI's are not on this like white on rice? Please no BS claiming that you practice from 5 fee away, so 18" will mess you up. That's like saying you can hit a target from 100 feet away but you cant hit it from 20 feet away.

Wait, don't tell me, let me guess: the response will be along the lines of, "That's like saying that if you practice shooting free throws from 15 feet away at a 10-foot-high rim, it should be much easier if they suddenly switch to a 9-foot-high rim." It would take longer than you would think to "readjust." (I am under the impression that this is one of the reasons the WNBA doesn't do this.)

Maybe these tables are to DI's as the "counter catcher" BJ tables with excellent rules are to counters?

Quote: bigfoot66

Maybe these tables are to DI's as the "counter catcher" BJ tables with excellent rules are to counters?

Seemed very heat free to me. My friend apparently plays there often, he's actually up a fair amount. He was + 350 when he left yesterday. he was betting small so he must have went on a good run. I'm not convinced he has an edge on the DI. So I'm thinking he has an advantage, but I won't say why, and I didn't mention the name publicly.

And big deal even if you lose 1 place.

If DI was possible it seems it should be easier in that scenerio. I have never seen a half table as you described though. I have played on lots of table where they are saving on crew where one end isn't open. Everyone plays from one end but still throw to the far end. The far end has no dealer. If it is really quiet they sometimes have the bank being covered by the PB as well.

Everyone knows they have unbalanced dice in that casino.

Quote: RogerKint

Everyone knows they have unbalanced dice in that casino.

There's your answer!

I have played on several of those divided tables, including a couple of times at the former Hacienda casino near Boulder City. I think one of the problems with (theoretical) dice influence on those tables would be the surfaces underneath the felt. Sometimes those surfaces make it impossible to get a roll that doesn't go completely wild. Back in 2010, I posted about a full-size table where I couldn't get a decent bounce/roll. I commented then:

Quote: Doc

On my recent trip through Mississippi, I had recurring problems getting the dice to go straight. On one table, every throw I made bounced to the left, no matter how hard or how lofted I threw. I was throwing from the very end, from the stick man's left, and twice when I threw the dice in the air to the "Come" label at the other end, they bounced into the air straight left and hit the base dealer in the chest. I never understood that. I complained about the table every time they complained about my not hitting the end wall, but I think they understood that I was joshing.

I think the best opportunity I have ever encountered for dice influence (if such were possible) was the converted roulette table that I reported finding at the Magnolia Bluffs casino in Natchez, MS. I have also played craps on small tubs on the Las Vegas strip, at both Casino Royale and the former Boardwalk.

Quote: AxelWolf

Seemed very heat free to me. My friend apparently plays there often, he's actually up a fair amount. So I'm thinking he has an advantage, but I won't say why, and I didn't mention the name publicly.

I noted that the Honorable Member from Canis Lupus omitted a few details such as the name of the casino, even its general geographic location. Also omitted was any comment about beautiful women with Barneys incessantly trying to lure shooters up to their rooms and the Tray Lizards who insist on bringing straight pours of top shelf drinks.

I must assume that the Honorable Member from Canis Lupus is going to investigate more fully and will then report more accurately about these non-rice eating DIs, his friends net position and his own net win/loss after some more lengthy and statistically more significant time. This omission is perfectly reasonable and is not an indication of some sort of attempt to tease us about that other shoe.

I will patiently await the Honorable Member's Full Report.

Quote: RogerKint

Everyone knows they have unbalanced dice in that casino.

I do not know anything about unbalanced dice, but I'm sure all the suits are unbalanced.

I do know that from a dealers stand point that a "one man tub" can be a very difficult (if not impossible) game to monitor if two or more savvy players work opposite ends of the game in tandem. The dealer MUST keep the dice in sight at all times, except after the roll, when he drags them close to the "paddle", while he reconciles all bets. This leaves a window that could be exploited by a skillful DI. I haven't worked a tub for several years now, but it seemed that for a good while that everywhere I worked used a tub, especially during the slow part of the day, ( midnight 'til 8 or 9 a.m.). Even without employing advantage tactics, these games are really insecure for the house...another example of wrong headedness by know nothing casino management saving a C-note on payroll while practically leaving the house wide open to any DI's, pinchers, and pressers who feel like taking some.

Axelwolf




Seems to me you just wasted a lot of time talking about DI's when you constantly make
the assumption none of them can do anything that is their advantage anyway.


Now here in Wisconsin three of us have been playing on an 8 foot table with3,4,5
odds ever since they opened it 3 months ago. All of us have wasted money taking
a class or several from one dice group or another and they come to my humble
table to practice fairly often.

Certainly we never win when we play on that table, hardly ever have a decent
roll. It is just amazing that people that actually work at this can do so poorly,
and week after week........(laughing)

When you talk about this stuff you are just right on.... you need to write a book.

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

Axelwolf

Seems to me you just wasted a lot of time talking about DI's

Pot Kettle Black

Axelwolf,

Where is this game at? I'll be in Vegas on Thursday.

Edit: My best guess to your question would be that they are using the wrong technique for an 18'' throw...

Quote: dicesitter

Axelwolf




Seems to me you just wasted a lot of time talking about DI's when you constantly make
the assumption none of them can do anything that is their advantage anyway.


Now here in Wisconsin three of us have been playing on an 8 foot table with3,4,5
odds ever since they opened it 3 months ago. All of us have wasted money taking
a class or several from one dice group or another and they come to my humble
table to practice fairly often.

Certainly we never win when we play on that table, hardly ever have a decent
roll. It is just amazing that people that actually work at this can do so poorly,
and week after week........(laughing)

When you talk about this stuff you are just right on.... you need to write a book.

dicesetter

Do you keep track of your rolls in live casino play? What about practice? If so, do you mind sharing your recorded rolls results? Do you know what your advantage is ($$ EV) when you step up to shoot?

RS



NO NO NO..... I have learned my lesson, I provided a good number of rolls for Ahigh and was
called a liar, I provided a number of results from different sets on here and even two videos which
showed eactly what I said they showed, and faced an onslaught from the real experts on craps on
this forum.....

No I think your better off just following the guys that know you cant beat the game by any other
measure than having some influence on the dice but constantly badgering any one that would suggest
that with an endless array of demands for proof,,, which when you think about it is 100% stupid
because their is not a person on earth that can duplicate my toss, nor can I duplicate the toss of
any other player.

Each person needs to develop a toss that works for them,. but then again, even if you do that
you cant win anyway.... the guys on here say that, so it must be true.

I guess I will just keep practicing and playing, and losing .... what is a person to do.


Suffering terribly in Wisconsin

dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

was called a liar

Don't remember that. Do remember this.

Quote: dicesitter

RS



NO NO NO..... I have learned my lesson, I provided a good number of rolls for Ahigh and was
called a liar, I provided a number of results from different sets on here and even two videos which
showed eactly what I said they showed, and faced an onslaught from the real experts on craps on
this forum.....

No I think your better off just following the guys that know you cant beat the game by any other
measure than having some influence on the dice but constantly badgering any one that would suggest
that with an endless array of demands for proof,,, which when you think about it is 100% stupid
because their is not a person on earth that can duplicate my toss, nor can I duplicate the toss of
any other player.

Each person needs to develop a toss that works for them,. but then again, even if you do that
you cant win anyway.... the guys on here say that, so it must be true.

I guess I will just keep practicing and playing, and losing .... what is a person to do.


Suffering terribly in Wisconsin

dicesetter

You aren't doing too good a job at backing up your position by avoiding the questions.

I think that's a primary reason why I don't believe in dice control/influence -- I ask what their edge, EV, what kinda variance, their bet sizes, a frequency distribution of their rolls, etc. and they pretty much never know how to respond, other than a "IF I can do a SRR of 1/6.5 then I have an edge." Cool, if I can predict a roulette number hitting with 10% success rate, I'll have an edge too. But I don't, because I can't do that. And you (generic) can't roll a 1/6.5 SRR.

Yes it's a dream table to be on.

I knew one casino that had this but it's now closed.

Tell me where there is one now and I'll be there.

If I can roll a boxcar, I can win 30 times my wager!

Yeah, the misplaced beliefs among those who consider themselves craps AP's is genuinely interesting.

The King of Kong became a really good story, in part, because of the characters of the story. I mean how could these guys be so passionate about such inane details of a game like Donkey Kong.

The fact that nobody cares is almost part of the fascination.

In this case, nobody who has money cares (or at least nobody that has money for long).

I have many qualifications to suggest that I may be a craps AP. Most recently, Phil Ivey paying the shooter before me $100 so that I could shoot the dice instead of the guy before me. The $100 meant nothing to Phil, obviously, but he paid that $100 under the possibility that I might know what I'm doing from his visual observations. Not from any claims about my shooting, just from what he saw.

But that doesn't mean anything either. But believe you me, I am someone good enough for Phil Ivey to put his money behind a statement relating to "I want to bet on THIS guy."

You guys who record 20 rolls and say "oh I did this and that and Ahigh blah blah blah" you got nothing but hot air.

Seriously.

Nothing.

I am not an AP, and I seriously doubt anyone who knows LESS than me about how to AP craps is an AP either.

And that includes MANY.

From my view.

I don't want to doubt you and Phil Ivey but I have been at the craps table with Phil and Barry greenstein in many occasions. I have seen Phil pull a random elder lady from just walking by off the floor and given her 1k to shoot. Phil is very quirky at the craps table - so not doubting you on the di part but backing it up with Phil is not saying much.

Quote: Ahigh

But that doesn't mean anything either.

Maybe you missed it? The point you think you are making is the point that I thought I had made myself.

It doesn't matter what anybody THINKS. I mean ANYBODY -- INCLUDING PHIL.

The whole subject of advantage play, in general, is a sure fire way to get people pissed off at one another.

That much I am certain of. The context doesn't seem to matter.

Add in some confusion and misconception, and WOW! Watch the sparks fly!!!

It does, however, seem that this is "where the fun is."

AP in poker doesn't "get people pissed off at one another."

On the contrary, many people seek out poker pros to test their chops against them in private games, to see how they measure up.

We The People enjoy watching poker stars play hold em on TV: their skill is on display,and it is appreciated.

We are not interested in average gamblers, just as men don't much care to ogle average looking women.

We watch the guys who are really good: the ones who through hard work and talent have risen to the top.

APs exist, just not in craps.

Someone should put a large boulder on top of the DI rabbit hole: many well-intentioned folks fall in and sip tea for years with the mad hatter.

Quote: MrV

AP in poker doesn't "get people pissed off at one another."

Right. These moments are completely rehearsed because we all believe your assertion, right?

You misunderstand my point.

The emotion of the players in the vid you posted wasn't caused by the notion of AP: it was caused by people reacting to events which unfolded while they were playing the game.

The same emotion (anger) can be found on display by non-AP poker players.

I believe you'd agree that AP is real in poker: some players demonstrably are so skillful that they are AP.

Ap however does NOT exist in craps, and it is the vociferous argument between its deluded proponents and its many clear-thinking detractors that causes people to get pissed off at one another.

That was my point.

I agree with MrV, except the non-AP part about you. You can AP craps, but it hasn't a thing to do with how you set or toss the dice.

Quote: RS

I agree with MrV, except the non-AP part about you. You can AP craps, but it hasn't a thing to do with how you set or toss the dice.

Buy someone's DC bets that they don't want action on.

This forum is like participating in an infinite loop of sorts.

Quote: Ahigh

Buy someone's DC bets that they don't want action on.

what the would-be AP with this strategy needs is some way to appeal to the player who declines the action, that he should let you have that action when the table minimum is low

I suppose such APs exist at the higher minimum tables, never tried to "vulture" that myself.

These people do present themselves, that's for sure

Quote: Ahigh

Buy someone's DC bets that they don't want action on.

This forum is like participating in an infinite loop of sorts.

That's not the only way, but in general there's no consistent way to AP craps. Times where you have an actual +EV situation are not often.

"AP craps players" usually have tunnel vision and stick to there favorite casinos.

Quote: Ahigh

Buy someone's DC bets that they don't want action on.

Yes, you could ask the guy standing next to you who has a naked DP or PL bet whether he'd mind if you made an odds bet, but that is a bit tacky, really.

More to the point, it is not AP.

It is a 50 /50 proposition on taking or laying odds.

A great bet, all things considered, but not true AP.

Quote: MrV

We watch the guys who are really good: the ones who through hard work and talent have risen to the top.

At least one of us does.

Quote: MrV

APs exist...

But do they think?

Quote: MrV

Yes, you could ask the guy standing next to you who has a naked DP or PL bet whether he'd mind if you made an odds bet, but that is a bit tacky, really.

More to the point, it is not AP.

It is a 50 /50 proposition on taking or laying odds.

A great bet, all things considered, but not true AP.

Correct, for what you are describing. But you do realize you are describing a different bet?

Have you not heard players say they 'don't want the action' on their unresolved DC bet that would travel to 6 or 8? That's the AP bet, taking that over. IIRC, offering $21 for a $20 bet is good, but what do you do with a $5 or $10?

RS



You can believe in anything you want, As I have said, I have done a lot already to show what my
practice has provided into terms of my throw . I have also shown results of changing
sets. I tried my best to start a discussion that finds itself some where between the position of
people like the mad professor or whoever that indicated they had an SRR of 28, and those of
people like Axel and Math and others who are lost in a
dream world of either no influence is possible or if you have one you should be making millions..

Anyone can develop a decent throw... that is not hard. Extending your SRR to 1/6.5 or 1/7 is not
hard. Showing that a certain set will produce a somewhat different result is not hard.... the hard
part is to move from your practice table to a real table under game conditions that is hard.
Now couple that what ever changes you will have in yourself from day to day and then extend
that to the casino...... that's hard, and that's why there is no such thing as dice control.
If you want to email me I can share some stuff with you, but short of that I am just practicing
and playing and doing fine.

dicesetter

A DP player will not just give up a don't six or eight bet to another player; they might sell it for the bet amount, but that move also seems tacky, at least if the don't player is a stranger to you.

If it's a buddy then hey, no problem, go for it.

Quote: MrV

A DP player will not just give up a don't six or eight bet to another player; they might sell it for the bet amount, but that move also seems tacky, at least if the don't player is a stranger to you.

If it's a buddy then hey, no problem, go for it.

A friend of mine always picks up his DP if it's a 6 or 8. Silliness.

Quote: MrV

A DP player will not just give up a don't six or eight bet to another player; they might sell it for the bet amount, but that move also seems tacky, at least if the don't player is a stranger to you.

If it's a buddy then hey, no problem, go for it.

Oh I was wrong? <ATTACK!> That's TACKY that's why I didn't understand.

Let me tell you what's tacky is betting max odds black chip action and not tipping.

Trying to ask for someone's DC action isn't tacky, it is tempting fate for an untimely demise.

There was only ONE time I did something like that. A guy a $100 DC that would have travelled to the ten and he said he didn't want action.

I said, "I think you do want action on that don't you?"

He said "nope."

I said, let me take the action, here's $100.

He then said, "what?"

I said, "take this chip and let me have the DC behind the ten."

Then the retarded elderly imbecile went into a tirade of biblical proportions while the dealers rolled their eyes.

Never in a MILLION YEARS would this guy understand handing over his action to me. And in hindsight I should have offered him $115 to split the $33.33 positive EV with him, I guess.

The game of craps is advantage playable, and this is only one known way to AP the game.

There's one other way I have seen it done where Cosmo was taken for about $10,000 each between two guys who walked up with $200. I'm not 100% they AP'd the casino, but I do think this is the case.

Basically what these guys were doing was betting stupid bets and acting stupid and they were winning anyway. This was long enough ago I was trying to "help" them... But the more I attempted to help, the more I realized that they were actually very smart people making very stupid bets.

When they left with $10,000 each, I began backtracking their very successful method of playing.

Each person on opposite ends of the table, and I saw at least one roll where there was a roll that would have been a die-down roll except it bounced off the unmoving player who did not shoot the dice.

It would not have been a possible AP if you were to assume that he didn't have the option to have it called a no roll. But he saw the outcome of the first die, and potentially CHOSE to remain still as the second die bounced off him and onto the table to resolve into a win.

If this were not possible (they had $100 boxcars .. EACH on that roll) my suggestion is that he had opportunity -- not just to CATCH the dice -- but to MOVE enough as to have the stickman call it a no-roll.

You can't do this forever, even if it works, but I may have witnessed this as an AP move.

There are others.

Quote: odiousgambit

Have you not heard players say they 'don't want the action' on their unresolved DC bet that would travel to 6 or 8?
That's the AP bet, taking that over. IIRC, offering $21 for a $20 bet is good, but what do you do with a $5 or $10?

the values i show are including the bet
on a $20 bet offering $1 or $2 or $3 is good
on a $25 bet offering $1 or $2 or $3 or $4 is good
on a $100 bet offering $10 or $15 is good


on a $10 bet offering $1 is good
or alternating if you can get lots of then between $1 or $2
mostly $1

on a $5 bet offering 50 cents is an option (if the table has them)
as is $1 half the time and $0 the other (i have seen this at El Cortez)

you can due the math to check it out

Big A time!
a small bet on the under (i never bet the under, but my hubby thinks it is a good bet)

So then, as I understand the alleged AP: two guys on opposite ends are betting a black chip each on midnight.

One guy is the shooter: One die hit his confederate, who PRESUMABLY had looked at the table and saw that the other die that landed there was a six.

He then realized there is a great chance of them both hitting the midnight, so he allowed the errant die to bounce off of him and hit the table, as opposed to letting it miss him, thus having a one in six chance of winning.

Is that it?

Quote: MrV

So then, as I understand the alleged AP: two guys on opposite ends are betting a black chip each on midnight.

One guy is the shooter: One die hit his confederate, who PRESUMABLY had looked at the table and saw that the other die that landed there was a six.

He then realized there is a great chance of them both hitting the midnight, so he allowed the errant die to bounce off of him and hit the table, as opposed to letting it miss him, thus having a one in six chance of winning.

Is that it?

In general, yes you see it. But the details of no roll versus roll:

Even just moving slightly is enough to generate a "no roll call" if you watch enough of the game. I watch MANY details of this game, and I know that ANY crew that saw him moving as the dice touched him is enough to call a no roll. The dice can still land on the felt and he can accomplish his goal of controlling the outcome between roll and no roll.

The trick is appearing stupid enough for them not to get suspicious. This two-man team seemed to fit all the criteria for being a POSSIBLE exploit.

The biggest fit was that they walked with $10,000 EACH from a $200 buy-in. That's extremely rare (especially them BOTH winning).

But I don't know for a fact that they cheated and I'm pretty sure that the Cosmo did not suspect them of cheating even after I pointed this out to a couple of dealers there, they generally responded with shrugs and I don't think so.

People win $10,000 often enough nobody noticed or cared.

What I do know is that it is possible that they could have been doing this. I don't know that they were in fact, just saw what it could have been after observation is all.

Many dealers have told me if they were cheating that they would have been stopped.

I'm not sure.

I would expect this to be illegal especially if you admitted your intentions. I know I would never try this, and I even worry sometimes describing this. But hopefully in the context, it's something that is not against the law to describe.

If it is cheating, they should be stopped and dealers should be aware of this. I have always assumed that a good dealer could see what I saw, but again, shrugs are what I got. Of course if they were possible cheats, giving out info about whether or not they suspect cheats is not going to happen in general except for casinos where cheats are cheating for hundreds rather than ten grand.