House Edge numbers for SRR > 6?

I posted this in the craps forum but then I noticed this DI one so I'm hoping someone here can help

I saw a chart somewhere listing various house edge %'s for both Pass/DP strategy for SRR values from 5 to 7. I know about the wizard's appendix 4, but that only lists SRR values above 6 and not below

I can't remember the website, but if anyone has the information it would be great if you could share it

Cheers

*Edit: I just realized the title of this post says SRR>6 when I meant to type SRR<6

Quote: lengjai

I posted this in the craps forum but then I noticed this DI one so I'm hoping someone here can help

I saw a chart somewhere listing various house edge %'s for both Pass/DP strategy for SRR values from 5 to 7. I know about the wizard's appendix 4, but that only lists SRR values above 6 and not below

I can't remember the website, but if anyone has the information it would be great if you could share it
Cheers

The house edge does not change, I don't care what your SRR is, the SRR is only a catch phrase that the on axis schools came up with to sell players on trying to become a so-called DI.

This is coming from someone that everybody calls a DI. The best looking shot I ever made turned out to be a seven out!

Your so called SRR does nothing at all for you, it doesn't change the house edge that will always stay the same. You need a lot more than a SRR over 7 to win at craps. You need good betting skills, that most will never learn.

You can read every book you can get your hands on about craps and you could still be the wost better there is. You have to remember that the seven can always be on the next roll of the dice.

"good betting skills".....care to explain.

Quote: lengjai

I posted this in the craps forum but then I noticed this DI one so I'm hoping someone here can help

I saw a chart somewhere listing various house edge %'s for both Pass/DP strategy for SRR values from 5 to 7. I know about the wizard's appendix 4, but that only lists SRR values above 6 and not below

I can't remember the website, but if anyone has the information it would be great if you could share it

Cheers

Welcome to the forum.

The question must be a little more specific. If you could get your SRR to be 5, and were playing the pass line, I would assume you would be smart enough to 'randomly roll' rather than keep your 'skilled roll' after you established a point.
And also, if playing don't pass, you would not use your skilled roll on the come out, of course, then would use your skilled roll after a point has been set.

So is your question what is the house edge for someone playing smart, thus only using the skilled roll when it helps, or always using the skilled roll?

By the way, if this is anything more than an academic exercise, and you actually believe you can reliably alter the SRR with legal rolls, I am the forum's resident skeptic and will bet you that you can't!

Quote: superrick

The house edge does not change, I don't care what your SRR is, the SRR is only a catch phrase that the on axis schools came up with to sell players on trying to become a so-called DI.

This is coming from someone that everybody calls a DI. The best looking shot I ever made turned out to be a seven out!

Your so called SRR does nothing at all for you, it doesn't change the house edge that will always stay the same. You need a lot more than a SRR over 7 to win at craps.

A "catch phrase"? Thanks for your opinion, but I believe you've been misinformed. SRR is simply a ratio, or a measurement. It is no different than density, which is a comparison of an object's mass divided by its volume. SRR is a comparison of total rolls divided by the number of 7's rolled within that sample size. When you say your "best looking shot ever made turned out to be a seven out" it seems to me that you think SRR is some way of controlling the dice to do your bidding every time you roll

To say that house edge stays the same with an SRR above 7 tells me that you lack a fundamental understanding of how probability works. Taking the SRR of 7 as an example, means that you will roll approximately five 7's every 35 rolls. That is nearly equal to the number of times a random shooter will roll a 6 (five times every 36 rolls). You're telling me that consistently rolling five 7's and five 6's every 36 rolls doesn't change the house edge? A standard $6 place bet on the 6 would net almost $5 every 36 rolls (HE=-8.333%), compared to a net loss of $1 to the house (HE=1.515%) for a completely random shooter

Quote: superrick

You need good betting skills, that most will never learn.

This suggests to me that you are a proponent of betting systems or using sucker bets to hedge, both of which anyone with rudimentary understanding of statistics will scoff at. If such is the case, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. You'll definitely be needing it

Quote: SOOPOO

So is your question what is the house edge for someone playing smart, thus only using the skilled roll when it helps, or always using the skilled roll?

By the way, if this is anything more than an academic exercise, and you actually believe you can reliably alter the SRR with legal rolls, I am the forum's resident skeptic and will bet you that you can't!

Thanks for answering =) It skipped my mind when typing my post because I thought it was implied, but yes I was interested in the HE values for using a skilled roll only when advantageous to the player. This is somewhat a mix of both academic and practical curiosity. I have an acquaintance who has a craps table that I play on from time to time (not with real money, just bragging rights). However, if I find that the results are good, I may decide to take a bit of money to the casino and experiment there too. Can't say I'd take your bet though, because at this point I know I'm at a disadvantage =p

house edge




SRR can be a funny thing since many player use different ways to calculate it. Some players include
the come out rolls such as 11, 11, 3 and then a point number of 8, gives you a Roll count of 4 just to
start.

Some count only the rolls after the point is set, this is what I do.

Now you cant change the house edge, it never varies on any roll, however here I differ a tad from
Superrick in that I think if one could consistently extend the roll an average of 6 (after point is set) to
7 or 8 , it would make a large difference in your potential to get paid more times on each roll. Here again there is
a catch 22..... to make sure you get paid on each toss of the dice you need to bet across, so if a 5
is thrown you win, if a 10 is thrown you win and so on. But betting across after the point is set is
a sure way to the poor house.

Now I get back to where I agree with those that say SRR means nothing. Lets say your a 6 & 8 better
and the table is showing 5,9,10,4 consistently.... well you see the point, if your not paying attention
to your betting, not much else matters.

I do think if a person is one that works on his roll, and betting at the same time, I would rather
have an SRR of 7 than 6. I think getting a after point SRR of 8-10 would be god like, I am not sure it
can be done, and anyone that says that is pulling your leg. Here I am talking about your average
roll ( after the point is set) the average roll per shooter is said to be 8.2 if you include the come out roll.

Again you can never vary the house edge on each bet, but extending the rolls gives you a better chance
to get paid on any bet you did make.


dicesetter

Quote: SOOPOO

By the way, if this is anything more than an academic exercise, and you actually believe you can reliably alter the SRR with legal rolls, I am the forum's resident skeptic and will bet you that you can't!

Question: even if you know the SRR, how do you determine the probability of rolling each other particular number? Having a point of 8 and knowing the SRR is 7 doesn't seem to be enough information to solve the problem:

"If you can reduce the probability of rolling a 7 with two dice to 1/7, then what is the probability of rolling an 8 before a 7?"

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Question: even if you know the SRR, how do you determine the probability of rolling each other particular number? Having a point of 8 and knowing the SRR is 7 doesn't seem to be enough information to solve the problem:

"If you can reduce the probability of rolling a 7 with two dice to 1/7, then what is the probability of rolling an 8 before a 7?"

I think the "standard" is to assume the probability is distributed among all the other combinations equally, which makes absolutely no sense.

Figuring out the 'new' HE is not that difficult. Of course, you also need to know the probability of throwing each other number. Rolling a 12 is no longer 1/36 (although it could be, by chance).

Once you know the probability of rolling each number....you do some very easy math.

If you have a 1/7 chance of rolling a seven and a 1/6 chance of rolling a nine.

Of 420 outcomes (picked 420 because divisible by 6, 7, and 10), you seven out 1/7 of those (60), you win on 1/6 of them (70) and nothing happens on the other 290. Of the 70 you win, you're winning 7:5. Of the 60 you're losing, you're losing 1:1.

((70*7/5) - 60) / 420 = 38/420 ~ 9%.

Of course, that's a bit extreme of an example. But the math isn't that difficult. Doesn't matter if you do it per roll or per resolution, if you know how and what the number means (and it's positive), you're in good hands.


Math isnt hard. But of course, the problem is if you actually can control the dice. I don't think you can, but, I think that's a discussion for a different thread.

Quote: RS

Figuring out the 'new' HE is not that difficult. Of course, you also need to know the probability of throwing each other number. Rolling a 12 is no longer 1/36 (although it could be, by chance).

Of course. But that's the problem; apparently, calculations assume that the probabilities of throwing the other numbers remain in the same proportions to each other that they normally are (e.g. a 6 is still five times as likely as a 2).

If the probability of rolling a 7 is p (= 1 / SSR), then the probability of rolling something else is 1 - p.
6 and 8: 5/30 x (1 - p) = (1 - 1/SSR) / 6
5 and 9: 4/30 x (1 - p) = (1 - 1/SSR) x 2/15
4 and 10: 3/30 x (1 - p) = (1 - 1/SSR) / 10
3 and 11: 2/30 x (1 - p) = (1 - 1/SSR) / 15
2 and 12: 1/30 x (1 - p) = (1 - 1/SSR) / 30

I doubt that the assumption is true.

Quote: wudged

I think the "standard" is to assume the probability is distributed among all the other combinations equally, which makes absolutely no sense.

NOTE: EVERYTHING TO FOLLOW IS 100% THEORETICAL AND PRESENTED JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, I BELIEVE NONE OF THIS:

Exactly, that standard is complete drivel.

Honestly, you'd need to know what kind of Sevens you're throwing and figure out what that does to the Odds accordingly. Actually, the easiest way (if one really wants to assume DI is possible) is to simply analyze faces only of about 5,000 or so throws, see if there is a bias, and then come up with probabilities from there.

You figure that if the expectation is 1/6 Sevens, in general, that's because the expectation is also 1/18 3-4's, 1/18 2-5's, and 1/18 6-1's, okay, so which is it?

If you roll Sevens more to the quip of 3-4's, and your overall SRR is 5.1429 rolls per seven, we'll say, then the question is how are those Sevens distributed?

For example, going with that HIGHLY THEORETICAL 7 SRR, let's say you are 8/72 (normal 4/72) to roll 3-4, 5/72 (normal 4/72) to roll 2-5 and 1/72 (normal 4/72) to roll 1-6:

Overall SRR 14/72 = .1944444 = 1/.194444 = 5.1428688 (1 Seven in every 5.1428688 rolls)

Again, just using these garbage numbers as an example, we see that the person is 2/18 to roll 3-4 1.25/18 to roll 2-5 and 1/72 to roll 1-6.

Okay, so it's going to be extremely rare (if the face bias otherwise holds up) for this person to roll a Yo, and this person will almost never roll Craps. In terms of points, generally speaking, this person will see a good few 6's and 8's (probably more than normal, actually) probably more HARD 6's and 8's than usual, and the person will also see some 5's and 9's.

If the person bets the Don't Pass, the person will notice that they take themselves down on the CO with a crap ton of Sevens, unless they throw randomly on the CO, which they should do, to facilitate more 4's and 10's to LAY MAX ODDS against because it would be extremely RARE to roll 4's and 10's with a set with the above distribution of Sevens. The person almost never rolls 1's or 6's, so most of the 4's and 10's (what few there are) would be the Hard Way.

1.) Play the DP + Odds against 4's, 10's and perhaps 5's and 9's (would have to have a full range of faces) and Lay MAX ODDS. Random roll the CO, MAYBE not Lay Odds against 6's and 8's, because you roll a lot of combinations (including Hardways) for 6's and 8's.

2.) Play the Pass Line, always set, in the rare event of a 4/10, Lay Bet (Place to Lose) hard against the number. 5's and 9's would have to see more results, probably just let the PL bet remain (No Odds) if you roll 6/8.

3.) Lay (Place to Lose) against the 4/10 always.

4.) Maybe bet the Hard 6/8, depends on the exact distribution of results.

5.) HOP 4-3 and 5-2 every roll you are setting the dice.

There, so if you want to know how anyone who rolls a lot of Sevens (if such a person exists) or how someone who rolls fewer than expected should bet, roll 5,000 times and see what the results are and come up with an actual distribution and figure out what to bet for/against.

Betting a $5 minimum Line Bet, if you're lucky, you'll have only lost about $350 and the time it takes to roll (and track) 5,000 rolls.

F*ING "DI" Craps players.

I had some free play, free food and a $10 match play at a small local place. I wasn't even going to bother with my match play, but my GF already tore it out and had $10 ready.

So after eating I decided to use it on BJ. 1 table was full and the rest had dealers waiting to shuffle and deal. I didn't want to make them shuffle and deal just for one hand.
I seen that the Craps table had one IDIOT setting and trying to influence the dice( red chips). It was a ugly display as he shot from the end of the table, granted he wasn't blasting them hard but his form was horrible (hell he didn't even have to hit the back wall )

Anyways, I walk up closer (match play hidden) I stand 2 feet from the table and wait quietly.

He stops, backs up from the table and grumbles, "are you going to just stand there or actually play?"
I said, "I'm thinking about it, but carry on, I won't disturb your shot.
He just stood there and said, "I don't like people watching me, can you go learn from someone else?"
I said, "your the last person anyone would learn from, hope you lose everything "

I didn't let him respond, I just walked away, went and played my free play.

When I returned, he was gone and a new shooter was shooting. I just tossed mt MP and $10 on the field and won. The dealer said, "It's about time someone told that creep off, he's the worst, and BTW he did lose everything"