Tuscany skeered
The Tuscany, aside from $3 mins, is trying to beat out Stratosphere as having the worst math table in Vegas, AND they won't let you set.
Word is that they might even take the table out they are so skeered.
This doesn't prove that dice control works, but it proves that even the casinos are worried about it (some of them). But it could possibly be reverse psychology for all I know.
On the plus side, Marilyns Café has some real tasty pancakes. All you can eat pancakes $3.99, 24/7. My partner and I will be arriving home (vegas) at 11pm, from our east coast trip in a few days and our first stop on the way home will be Tuscany and Marilyn's. :) My first 2 years in Vegas, when I lived at Koval and Flamingo, Tuscany was frequently my final stop of the night after too many nights of too much drinking.
Yes, exactly. When I talk about game pace issues with my casino clients, this is the number one complaint they have about setters, that they slow down the game. The number two complaint is that setters are often in a bad mood compared to other players and ruin the fun of the table. The last thing they are i"scared" of is so-called DI. Of course, Tuscany could be an exception.Quote: RSMaybe they don't let you set the dice to increase the speed of the game? (Not that it would necessarily make sense to do it.)
Quote: sabreCan someone explain to me why dice setters slow down the game? Doesn't it take like 2 seconds to orient the dice if that is your thing? I mean, we are talking about dice with 6 pips each right?
There are quite a few ways that setters work. The most annoying is the one teliot was referencing. They roll the dice in front of themselves waiting for some combination to show on the faces. If they don't get it, they roll them again and again. This type can take a good 30 seconds before they are ready to throw the dice. I figure when I get this guy on my table, someone is telling me I need another lesson in patience. I've seen this type 5 or 6 times, but only once has the box taken the dice away from the shooter, and that was due to multiple complaints from other players at the table.
The other setters aren't quite as bad. There are the ones who won't throw until the dice are in the perfect spot in their fingers, so they fiddle with the dice until they are perfectly comfortable. 10 seconds max is about the worst I have seen.
Most of the setters are pretty quick, and take less than 2 seconds to set and throw. However, there does appear to be a certain number who apparently do not understand that the opposite sides of the dice add up to 7. So they keep flipping the die searching for that ever elusive number. And naturally, they don't search in an organized manner. Rather, they randomly flip in all sorts of directions. I suppose they could be checking the die to insure all six combinations of pips are still on the die.
But you can set the dice if you do it quickly and efficiently. The only time I was told I couldn't set the dice I was actually waiting for a player who just walked up and wanted to buy in while I was getting ready to throw.
In any case, it a ridiculous rule to mention the word "set" when instructing a player what they are allowed to do. You can say "no practice rolls" for sure, IMO.
But the "no setting" rule is difficult to enforce, really for folks who are efficient, and it's much easier to just ban specific players who you think might roll too well than to tell them how they can shoot.
Even still, and to remind everyone, this is in the "dice setters" forum. This is some actual circumstantial evidence that dice setting might work if the casino is worried about it (any casino).
Binions has similar concerns and rules.
I think it's more likely the result of stupidity in the pit.
Quote: AhighIt's a "2 second rule" .. at the Silverton they had a "3 second rule" a few years ago and it only lasted for a week or two before it pissed off enough people that they reverted.
But you can set the dice if you do it quickly and efficiently. The only time I was told I couldn't set the dice I was actually waiting for a player who just walked up and wanted to buy in while I was getting ready to throw.
In any case, it a ridiculous rule to mention the word "set" when instructing a player what they are allowed to do. You can say "no practice rolls" for sure, IMO.
But the "no setting" rule is difficult to enforce, really for folks who are efficient, and it's much easier to just ban specific players who you think might roll too well than to tell them how they can shoot.
Even still, and to remind everyone, this is in the "dice setters" forum. This is some actual circumstantial evidence that dice setting might work if the casino is worried about it (any casino).
Binions has similar concerns and rules.
I think it's more likely the result of stupidity in the pit.
I always shoot with 6's up. I have no reason behind but I just do it. Anyways, when they are pushing them to me I can quickly see where the 6s are so it takes me about a sec to set them and fire them.
Quote: RaleighCrapsThere are quite a few ways that setters work. The most annoying is the one teliot was referencing. They roll the dice in front of themselves waiting for some combination to show on the faces. If they don't get it, they roll them again and again. This type can take a good 30 seconds before they are ready to throw the dice. I figure when I get this guy on my table, someone is telling me I need another lesson in patience. I've seen this type 5 or 6 times, but only once has the box taken the dice away from the shooter, and that was due to multiple complaints from other players at the table.
The other setters aren't quite as bad. There are the ones who won't throw until the dice are in the perfect spot in their fingers, so they fiddle with the dice until they are perfectly comfortable. 10 seconds max is about the worst I have seen.
Most of the setters are pretty quick, and take less than 2 seconds to set and throw. However, there does appear to be a certain number who apparently do not understand that the opposite sides of the dice add up to 7. So they keep flipping the die searching for that ever elusive number. And naturally, they don't search in an organized manner. Rather, they randomly flip in all sorts of directions. I suppose they could be checking the die to insure all six combinations of pips are still on the die.
It's very simple, they are not DI's they just saw somebody that got on a roll and was setting the dice!
It's just a sweat joint and lets leave it at that, talk about bad casino management, then run off players that would make them money, there are a few sweat joints around Vegas that are the same was. You have to look at the clientele that frequents the sweat joints.
If players are looking for a cheap place to stay and cheap games they're going to get ripped off by the sweat joints.
Quote: AhighThey don't let you set dice. $3 table, $300 max bet, $500 max odds IIRC. All vigs are up front, double on the 12 field.
The Tuscany, aside from $3 mins, is trying to beat out Stratosphere as having the worst math table in Vegas, AND they won't let you set.
Word is that they might even take the table out they are so skeered.
This doesn't prove that dice control works, but it proves that even the casinos are worried about it (some of them). But it could possibly be reverse psychology for all I know.
All you have to do is look at the lay-out and you can get a general idea of just how bad your game is going to go in any sweat joint.
If all of their bets suck, why are you playing there? If they give anybody heat about setting the dice why are you playing there? If they only have two times odds on the table why are you playing there? If they only pay double on the 12 in the field why are you playing there?
All you have to do is walk out of there and go to the next casino, here in Vegas there are over 300 tables to choose from! There also is one casino that only has 2x's odds on the south end of the strip that is the same way, I don't know why anybody would play anything there, I base just how tight the slot machines are, on what I see on the lay-out of the craps tables, if they have a craps game that sucks for their players, it would stand to reason that everything in the casino sucks!
We all have the ability to walk out of the casino when we see something that turns us off. Like 2x's odds or paying double on the 12 in the field.
Bad management runs deep now days, in casinos all over the country, maybe it's why they are shutting down a few of them, they ran off their players by not given them a good game and their players went elsewhere.
http://cdcgamingreports.com/revel-says-it-will-shut-without-buyer/
http://cdcgamingreports.com/commentaries/gambling-on-tunicas-future-what-to-aid-ailing-casino-market/
Now I've never played at either one of these properties, and the one thing that I do know is the gaming industry has overbuilt and saturated the market in every state that allow gambling. When their market share shows any decrease in revenue, you can expect to see mismanagement and casinos that start sweating the money!
In the ever-increasing marketplace for gambling, you have way more choices then playing at a sweat joint, use them is all I can say! Let their own bad management wipe them off the face of the earth!
Players have to win every once in a while, if casinos expect them to keep coming back. The old-time casino management knew if the player won today they would give it back tomorrow, now days if you have someone winning they try to run them off, and when they do they never have a shot at getting their money back, and when the players goes home they tell everybody not to play there!
That said, they really sweat stuff there. They wouldn't let my friend reenter the Super Fun 21 table until the end of the shoe at a $3 table he was flat betting the minimum and took a hand off for a phone call. So we left. There's greener felt out there.
As for setters taking too long, I've found if someone is hitting numbers, the players at the table don't complain. They could practice roll five times and do a couple of practice swings as long as they don't roll a seven no one would complain. I can't imagine a roller being removed because the customers wanted him gone. If he wasn't shooting well, he would be gone quickly enough anyway.
Players do sometimes get impatient, but it's usually someone buying in to the middle of a roll or some argument about a payout on the prop bets that causes players to get upset.
The casino just wants the dice to keep moving to have the most number of events per unit of time. The casino can't make money when the dice are stopped.
+1Quote: RaleighCrapsThe most annoying is the one teliot was referencing. They roll the dice in front of themselves waiting for some combination to show on the faces. If they don't get it, they roll them again and again.
+1Quote:However, there does appear to be a certain number who apparently do not understand that the opposite sides of the dice add up to 7. So they keep flipping the die searching for that ever elusive number. And naturally, they don't search in an organized manner. Rather, they randomly flip in all sorts of directions.
You forgot about the guy who, once he has the dice in the 'proper' orientation, releases his hold on them, puts his palm flat on the felt and rubs it in a circular motion. Then he picks the dice up again and shoots.
C'mon man, just shoot the dice! ...Unless you are rolling numbers & hitting your points. Then go head and do 10 practice rolls, examine every face of both cubes twice before every shot, and pet the felt as much as you want! :)
Quote: JoemanYou forgot about the guy who, once he has the dice in the 'proper' orientation, releases his hold on them, puts his palm flat on the felt and rubs it in a circular motion. Then he picks the dice up again and shoots.
HEY! That's me. When was I shooting at your table? ;-)
That's how I know I am on a really good roll. When my palm gets raw from the felt, I am having a really good roll, or I'm the only player at the table.......
Quote: ChampagneFireballAs for setters taking too long, I've found if someone is hitting numbers, the players at the table don't complain. They could practice roll five times and do a couple of practice swings as long as they don't roll a seven no one would complain. I can't imagine a roller being removed because the customers wanted him gone. If he wasn't shooting well, he would be gone quickly enough anyway.
This is generally true. Although, a shooter can be holding the dice for quite a while, and not do much but throw those pesky 2,3,11,12 numbers.
In the case of the shooter who was told no more, it was not just his rolling 5 or 6 times to get the right combo. He also had a bad shot and would throw the dice off the table, so then we had to endure the whole sequence all over again. I'm pretty patient at the table, after all, fewer rolls per hour just means my rating (theoretical loss) looks better than it really was, but this guy was a disaster and the other players were really getting displeased. So he was costing the casino with fewer rolls, AND, he was pissing off other bettors. Not a combination that a casino wants to allow for too long, or money will walk out the door.
Quote: teliotYes, exactly. When I talk about game pace issues with my casino clients, this is the number one complaint they have about setters, that they slow down the game. The number two complaint is that setters are often in a bad mood compared to other players and ruin the fun of the table. The last thing they are i"scared" of is so-called DI. Of course, Tuscany could be an exception.
If your clients are concerned about the pace what do they consider a decent amount of time to get hold of the dies and launch? Whatever it is, for this post I'll say 3 seconds. If that time allotment works for them is that same amount of time allowed for all the shooters? I see newbies and drunks and others taking forever to launch. I disagree with the practiced throwers taking longer than other players. How long does it take just to have your sweety kiss the dice or blow on them? Longer I'll wager than an experienced dice thrower.
So called DI's are in worse moods than other players? Please. Ruining the fun for the others? What? Is it possibly because they are sober and not beginners and just stupidly wasting their money. Who's fun, the casinos?
I set the dice. I don't claim it makes any difference in the outcome but I've done it long enough that is how I shoot. When I'm standing there with my passline wager in the proper place I consider myself paying to throw the dice how I want. It usually costs me about a hundred dollars per hour to play. I know chump change in the larger scheme of gambling. Often times I am the only player at the table. The way I look at it is if I'm not fast enough which I am, then how will the house like no players?
I usually really admire your posts teliot but this particular one seems way off from the way a craps player sees the game. I'll challenge this assertion as a matter of fact. Put ten Di's around a table and ten whatever's. Let the dice go round the table a few times. Are you willing to say that it was the di's that took to long to shoot that slowed up the game? I call Bullcrap. What about making the game fun for the di? They are the houses constant customers, I'd think they should cater to them more. The others might be there once or twice a year. The di's, which can not influence the dice [because it can't be done], are there year round often.
Quote: ChampagneFireballAs for setters taking too long, I've found if someone is hitting numbers, the players at the table don't complain. They could practice roll five times and do a couple of practice swings as long as they don't roll a seven no one would complain.
Well, that would be like complaingin the coffee's too good, or the price was too cheap, or the food was too tasty, or the flight was too fast, or somethign along those lines.
Recently at bubble craps one guy would not shoot until about 10 seconds in (the machine shoots if the button sin't pushed in 20 seconds). The recording telling him to "PUSH THE BUTTON!!!!!!!!" got really annoying, too. Compared to everyone else, he was taking a long time. But he kept hitting numbers, so naturally no one complained (least of all me).
Now, when someone very carefully sets the dice, taking a long tme to do so, then picks them up and shakes them before throwing, that's different. Such people should be banned summarily.
Pretty ridiculous.
Quote: PBguyOne of the dealers at the Tuscany told me some regular got banned - he only played the field and one night he won about $5,000 and they banned him.
Pretty ridiculous.
I heard from the dealer that they ban anyone who wins too much too.
SKEERED!!!
Quote: AhighI heard from the dealer that they ban anyone who wins too much too.
Win-win: you win a great deal of money, and don't risk losing it back to a casino which has such idiotic rules ;)
Quote: PBguyOne of the dealers at the Tuscany told me some regular got banned - he only played the field and one night he won about $5,000 and they banned him.
Pretty ridiculous.
They should just remove the field bet.
Quote: IbeatyouracesBetter yet, let's change the laws saying that publicly traded companies are not private property.
That would totally prevent this kind of field bet abuse.
Quote: RSIt isn't just DIs who set the dice. It's like 90% of craps players who set the dice.
It's sadly like the "thing to do" - monkey see, monkey do, as if it is a part of crap game tradition. Well, it is not.
And no, keep the field bet, at 3x on 12.
Quote: Dicenor33Any casino which ban players for any reason should have their license revoked.
You may wish to slightly rephrase this. Violent people deserve banning, as do people who are abusive in other ways towards casino staff. Cheats also deserve banning. Its a company protecting its assets.
Now banning customers for winning, or being an educated gambler, that is out of order.
Quote: CroupierNow banning customers for winning, or being an educated gambler, that is out of order.
Natural selection should deal with a casino that bans field betters for winning.
I know that I love to mess with the one casino on the south end of the strip that only has two times odds, once a year when I go there for a show in their convention center. I think they banned you from there, I might be wrong on this though.
Last month during WoVcon I visited the Tuscany during the day. Table was dead, I bought in and played for a few minutes and one of the two dealers said no dice setting. I just downed my inside bets and promptly seven out and left.
Quote: KonbuLast month during WoVcon I visited the Tuscany during the day. Table was dead, I bought in and played for a few minutes and one of the two dealers said no dice setting. I just downed my inside bets and promptly seven out and left.
I went last night and was told no setting. I colored up and said I was going to go somewhere that they allowed me to set the dice. I ended up going to Mandalay Bay. I think verbally telling them you're not going to play there when they harass you about the way that you want to play the game is the best response.
SKEERED!!!
A casino will use the excuse of time to try to stop dice setting because they are afraid "you"
may just be a dicesetter that can win.
If you look around there are non dice setters that take much more time and they say nothing.
Trop banned me two years ago, not because i was slow, and certainly not because i was
winning alot, but because my throw looked pretty decent and i was throwing the traditional
GTC shot. I was an easy target. I Asked the pit boss and the casino manager about that they both told
me the same thing, we wont risk the $32,000 on the table to a guy that sits at home and practices
how to beat us.
I went back this year, had them set the dice fairly close to what i wanted on top, threw a low shot
into the corner and had a 37 roll and made a good deal of money. The same guy that kicked me out
two times said hey you throw like that your welcome here anytime. Even insisted my wife and i
get a card to get some free stuff.
Dice setting is the best thing that ever happened to a casino, sooner or later they will wake up.
Dicesetter
Quote: petroglyphIf your clients are concerned about the pace what do they consider a decent amount of time to get hold of the dies and launch? Whatever it is, for this post I'll say 3 seconds. If that time allotment works for them is that same amount of time allowed for all the shooters? I see newbies and drunks and others taking forever to launch. I disagree with the practiced throwers taking longer than other players. How long does it take just to have your sweety kiss the dice or blow on them? Longer I'll wager than an experienced dice thrower.
You do have a certain point here, I think its that DI's already start out with a check mark against them and so they get called on time faster than otherwise because they are so hated (not feared, just hated). You are darn right that a sweetie can kiss those dice for as long as she wants provided its a low cut blouse. Newbies are given a certain latitude, that is only common courtesy. Drunks are given latitude only to avoid needless security issues, since making a phone call takes even more time and requires a post-incident memorandum.
On gambling boats in Florida the dice move with great speed because the crew knows the table will be closed and they will be out of a job if those dice don't move with great speed.
Its not that there is a stop watch being used. Its more 'cumulative impressions of how long you take'... and then the hammer falls. As it should. People are just happier when it falls on some hated DI wannabe.
I've not noticed it being that high.Quote: RSIt isn't just DIs who set the dice. It's like 90% of craps players who set the dice.
Personally, I just pick them up and throw them and show clean hands...and wait patiently for the stick to call the roll. No whooping, no holering, no invoking the baby's shoes and nothing about a chicken dinner. I just pick up the dice and throw them and then show that after having thrown two, I don't have any extras still in my hand.
Quote: FleaStiffI've not noticed it being that high.
Personally, I just pick them up and throw them and show clean hands...and wait patiently for the stick to call the roll. No whooping, no holering, no invoking the baby's shoes and nothing about a chicken dinner. I just pick up the dice and throw them and then show that after having thrown two, I don't have any extras still in my hand.
I was playing craps at the Riviera (it was an empty table so being a noob I could play on my own, and I wanted a chip for my collection), I showed clean hands after dropping my cash for the buy in, before I picked up my chips, before i put down a bet, after putting down a bet, before and after touching the dice.
Box just said "Where do you deal?"
