Random Shooter Law of Average vs. DI

Quote: Dracula

Quote: superrick

if you read something that is so outrages on one of the craps boards, call the poster out on it.

I see multiple threads where you bash the concept of DI, then follow that up with an implication you yourself are a DI or know 'real' DI's.
Please clarify

I'll be glad to clarify it for you, to start with there are very few DI's, there are a lot of what I call so-called DI's. Everybody that knows me calls me a DI, I live in the Las Vegas area, I play craps all the time, I get harassment or what some call heat in a lot of the casinos.

I know for a fact, that you have to get lucky to win at craps, now that is a bold statement to make for someone they call a DI, but the truth of the matter is you need luck even if you are a good shooter, because of the other players that buy-in when your on the tables. They do every stupid thing they can to stop any roll from happening, there are late bets, there is money flying in when you are shooting, there are the guys that are screaming as loud as they can right in your ear as you are shooting, for you to make a point that they have their chips on!

Then you have the suits stickmen and dealers, that are doing everything they can to get you to seven out. I've had stick persons stick their stick right in front of my face, or have them lean into the table so far to block me from shooting. Dealers sticking their hand down into the tub, while I'm shooting, and seen them not only doing it to me, but also anybody that is setting the dice.

I've been setting the dice since the first time I ever picked them up, before they coined to the words dice influencer or dice controller. Back then everybody that picked up the dice were just shooters!
I never got hassled, by any of the crew, we were after all just get lucky if we got on a good roll.
That all changed after they coined to the words dice influencer or dice controller to sell their schools or books!

There was a sub culture produced in the craps playing community, called DI's, when they started writing all the great fiction about all the money they were taking off the tables.
No one can do what these fiction writers are writing, the casinos would ban you if you could. The truth of the matter is real DI's can not win all the time.

I tell it like it really is, and everybody that plays the game all the time should. A lot of players have taking these classes, and I have no problem with anybody taking a class on playing craps if these schools also teach good betting skills, and tell everybody up front, that it's going to take thousands of hours of practicing your shooting and betting to stand a chance at craps.

The great Heavy, who runs Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum and school, has even come out and said that there may be 1% of all the so-called DI's out there that may stand a chance of winning

Quote:

Heavy
Most of us started out as "action" players and we always want to be in the action - even when "Randy" has the dice. It will never change - which is why the casino has noting to fear from 99% of the DI's out there.

To say that some of the schools and fiction writers hate me would be an understatement. I try to help other DI's with their shooting and betting skills when they or here in Vegas, I don't sell anything or charge for my help. You can bump into me on the tables around Vegas, I don't hide behind a curtain, because I'm not writing fiction!
I don't promote making stupid bets like the $204 across! I want everybody to have a good understanding of what you're up against any time you walk into a casino. I tell everybody that if they want to win at craps they got to get out of La, La land, and put a stop to all of this fiction they are reading. They should take some of their hard-earned money and also buy some good books on casino management so they can see what they're up against.

There are some members on this board that has met me that I've helped out with their shooting and betting, I also try to get some of the guys out of the casinos when there in Vegas to see what else we have to offer in the Vegas area besides the casinos, to save them money, because like most players they spent way too much time in the casinos when they are here.

I'm not into bashing the DI's just the BS that some of these fiction writers are writing, and I want everybody to know that it's just fiction, the same thing goes for these guys that are selling systems, that now are promoting that once you buy their system, you belong to their club.

Quote:

What we do is "E-Mail" the 2 instructional disc, do a live telephone or Skype session with the individual and then enroll them in our 2hr weekly "Skype" support sessions.

They join the team of Strategy players and not only learn how to use The Strategy with confidence, but; have a social network they can rely on and enjoy the comradery enjoyed by fellow Strategy players as well...

And to think, folks in Florida do the same: by joining a "Golf Country Club"... for 20 or 30k a year for the exact same reason.... why shoot...!!! ... talk about a "give away...."

Not everyone who joins a "Golf Country Club" does well on the golf course...

I think that the Wizard would be one of the first say that he has never seen a system or what ever you want to call it work all the time.

So like it or not, there are a few guys like me that will try to expose what you are buying into, when you believe some of the stuff that is posted on the different boards. The question I would pose to anyone is do you want to belong to the good old boys club and spend your money money on a system or take a class that does not tell it like it really is or would you rather know the truth?

There are a very few real DI's out there, that do stand a chance of winning, but not every time they walk into a casino. The casinos have nothing to fear from them, and one of the reasons is we do not take them for every thing we can when we are playing, we know that if we keep hitting the same casinos over and over again, we will get that tap on the shoulder telling us they no longer want our play, when big money hits the tables I'm playing on I will walk away.

I don't give a card to any casino I don't want their comps, if I can't buy that dinner, I shouldn't be playing craps. There are a few casinos that know me from when I first started playing craps that will put me into their computers without giving them a card, only because when I first started playing I read all the books that said you should be getting comps, and I got a few players cards around Vegas!

I believe that when you come on any board you are seeking the truth that will help you win at gambling, not BS that will cost you money. So I hope that this will clear up any question you may have as to why I'm always writing about the fiction you are probably reading on the different craps boards.

So if you want to take a class on becoming a DI, go head, but if I was you I would make sure if they had a forum that they didn't have a bunch of fiction on it. If you have any questions you can always PM me.

Dracula




If you play craps, i think you see every player try to set the dice in one manner or another, they
look at them for a minute they pick them up and throw them down untill they see what ever the
hell they are looking for, they have their girl friend blow on the dice. Any manner of contortions
are used to influence the dice.

I think the term DI refers to a person that actually spends many hundreds of hours practicing
a shot or several shots that they hope will give them some advantage. That surely does not mean
many can actually get an advantage, but many try very hard to do that.

I dont personally like the idea that if a person is called a DI or thinks of themselves as such, they should
be degraded because they have not managed to get a good advantage, or one that is always there every
time they hit the table. I see so many people say well i saw a DI the other night and he was not very good.
Atleast he or she tried.

I on the other hand I could say, i saw a random player the other night, he was not very good, nor did he have
enough ambition to try to be good.

I would rather play with some one that tried to be better than one that really does not give a crap. and would
rather down grade those that have more ambition even if they fail.

dicesetter

SuperRick,
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response brada.
I will pm you on some thoughts and ideas. I do have a couple questions/comments.

"I know for a fact, that you have to get lucky to win at craps, now that is a bold statement to make for someone they call a DI, but the truth of the matter is you need luck even if you are a good shooter, because of the other players that buy-in when your on the tables. They do every stupid thing they can to stop any roll from happening, there are late bets, there is money flying in when you are shooting, there are the guys that are screaming as loud as they can right in your ear as you are shooting, for you to make a point that they have their chips on!
Then you have the suits stickmen and dealers, that are doing everything they can to get you to seven out. I've had stick persons stick their stick right in front of my face, or have them lean into the table so far to block me from shooting. Dealers sticking their hand down into the tub, while I'm shooting, and seen them not only doing it to me, but also anybody that is setting the dice.."

That to me would seem like you would need discipline and focus rather than luck. Those are all psychological factors.


"The great Heavy, who runs Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum and school, has even come out and said that there may be 1% of all the so-called DI's out there that may stand a chance of winning.
"We all started out as action players and always want to be in the action. that's why the casino has nothing to fear"

Ok, if I take that as the truth or close to it: then some of these "systems" might help the success rate of DI to rise. It seems like betting on other random shooters is why "heavy" thinks there is such a low success rate? So for example, one like the 5 count or the 100 count should help?

Hey DiceSetter,
I appreciate your views. I do play craps.
When I think dice influencer I would think of someone who could throw a dart, hit bullseye. Throw a 2nd dart into the back of the 1st dart. And so on. Until he can just reach and stick the last dart in without throwing it. Lol
I imagine if you could get that sort of accuracy on dice, maybe certain numbers will come up more than they should.
If I'm 100% honest, I to get annoyed when someone won't even "try" to be "good"! Lol!

Quote: Dracula

I to get annoyed when someone won't even "try" to be "good"! Lol!

I hope you're not around the next time the dice come to me.

I grab any pair and toss them like bird seed, without a care in the world.

Quote: TerribleTom

I hope you're not around the next time the dice come to me.

I grab any pair and toss them like bird seed, without a care in the world.

It doesn't bother me a whole lot, but I can remember thinking : that mother &@%er isn't even trying.

Great betting system. Bet pass line, if loose bet again, loose - don't add any odds, table gone cold, wait till someone makes a point again, than repeat. 6 or 8 shows, bet 6 and 8, otherwise no place bets. I tried, works great. Someone makes point after point increase odds.

a DONT DO FOR SURE




We spend all our time onhere trying to get people to do certain things to win, well there is also
one thing not to do.

I played last night for just a short time, was trying out a shot i have been practicing. For few rolls
were not good and no one else could get past 2 rolls. (sorta like what the stick said before i played)

Last time with the dice i got a couple of points, two after did not make it past 2 rolls and the other guy was
going to roll before me. just then a friend walked up and started to talk about poker.

At any rate i did not get my fire bet down and what do you know the guy hit all 5 points and was working
an 6th. Now though i bet them all the time i have not seen a 5 point fire bet in 6 months, now i can say i saw one
and it is the only one i have not bet on in 6 months..... missed 1 roll and missed the only fire bet.

If i wanted to be cynical i would think the craps god is trying to tell me something,,,,,,,, nah


dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

a DONT DO FOR SURE




We spend all our time onhere trying to get people to do certain things to win, well there is also
one thing not to do.

I played last night for just a short time, was trying out a shot i have been practicing. For few rolls
were not good and no one else could get past 2 rolls. (sorta like what the stick said before i played)

Last time with the dice i got a couple of points, two after did not make it past 2 rolls and the other guy was
going to roll before me. just then a friend walked up and started to talk about poker.

At any rate i did not get my fire bet down and what do you know the guy hit all 5 points and was working
an 6th. Now though i bet them all the time i have not seen a 5 point fire bet in 6 months, now i can say i saw one
and it is the only one i have not bet on in 6 months..... missed 1 roll and missed the only fire bet.

If i wanted to be cynical i would think the craps god is trying to tell me something,,,,,,,, nah


dicesetter

what shouldn't you do?

Quote: CrapsGenious

Random Shooter Law of Average:
11:14 will PSO
2:14 will make a point or two
1:14 will get lucky and make back most of your losses from the previous shooters.

A table full of DI's:

6:14 will make 1 point or 4 numbers.
4:14 will make 2 points and repeating numbers.
2:14 will roll 3 points or more and repeating numbers.
2:14 will PSO because it happens.

If there was a full table of DI's, the casino will experience a losing day 100% of the time.
Problem is each day there are 80% random shooters making the casino money 80% of the time.

Not so sure about playing on a Table full of D.I's
I can only speak of 1 time where the whole table were D.I's. All of us might not of been in a great spot but thats the way it goes.
I played on that table that day at The Horseshoe with Heavy, Pappy, Irish, Larry and a few others i never got a chance to meet. I was in right Hook of all places. I think i had very short roll. I played Trend Setter that day and did not let a table full of D.I's dictate to me that Do side was where it was at.

At one point the 6 got lost. Imagine that, (14 D.I's and no one can hit a simple 6 of all numbers. I laid the 6 $60/50, then $90/$75, then $120/100, then $150/125 etc.... Played Level 1 Trend Setter and i was only there 1 hr bc i had to go to work that Sunday AM....
I colored up the Only Winner that day (+$900} between 14 D.I's.

Just ask Heavy and Co and he will testify to this truth... and he has mentioned that day on his board...
I see more of this, than I do Big scores from D.I's.
I feel 3 D.I's is about right, 4 maximum. If 2 cant get it going usually the 3rd guy will.
Especially if all using a slightly different shot. Parr, Off Axis, Little Joe etc...

vdc

Quote: CrapsGenious

Random Shooter Law of Average:
11:14 will PSO
2:14 will make a point or two
1:14 will get lucky and make back most of your losses from the previous shooters.

A table full of DI's:

6:14 will make 1 point or 4 numbers.
4:14 will make 2 points and repeating numbers.
2:14 will roll 3 points or more and repeating numbers.
2:14 will PSO because it happens.

If there was a full table of DI's, the casino will experience a losing day 100% of the time.
Problem is each day there are 80% random shooters making the casino money 80% of the time.

Well VegasDiceController you sure gave me a laugh today, funny how you forget about some of these threads. I think the CrapsGenious fell of the face of the earth, have not seen him posting anywhere!

His quote was bordering on the ridiculous, I want to know where in the world these guys come up with their figures, just how does he know that those figures hold water?

The truth of the matter is when a bunch of DI's get together on one table, most likely their going to end up losing. Once one of their heroes has a short roll or PSO's they fall like flies hit by a can of Raid, in one of their funny commercials! They think that they can get their money back on the next hero and over bet the roll, the short rolls seems to go right around the table.

I avoid a table full of DI's like the plague, now don't get me wrong on this one if you get some of these guys off a full table away from the crowd, your more likely to catch a good roll. I agree wholeheartedly the most DI's you want on a table at one time is three!

This type of thread has been discussed many times over the years, and just about everybody thinks the same way and that is to stay away from large groups of DI's on one table. Sure you might get lucky one time to catch a good roll, I've seen that happen only once, and I've watch many large groups of DI's just get killed when there is to many of them at one table!

My advice has always been stay away from large groups of DI's it will save you money!

I hesitate to jump into this but it seems painfully obvious to me that, with a house edge of what, 0.3% on triple odds?, that if there were the slightest validity to any of this the game of craps would not still exist since everyone at the table, not just the supposed "dominators" would be winning.
At a long craps table properly run (and properly run are the operative words) there is no way you are influencing the dice . If they are allowing short roles then all bets are off. This is nothing new. Carpet rollers have been around in street games long before anyone of us were alive.