Random Shooter Law of Average vs. DI
Or shoot 26 for 18 holes at the Masters.
Quote: TerribleTom
I've also seen a young girl's virgin effort at the table result in a 4 point firebet and at least three Come Out wins - I'd guess that young girl threw the dice 30+ times in her first time at a craps table. She was absolutely not trying to influence the dice, but her results were certainly better than average.
I am continually amused by CrapsGenious. His "random shooters suck" comment really made me chuckle. Most craps players are not even trying to influence the dice. They're just picking them up and tossing them down the table with their fingers crossed.
For every ten people that are trying to influence the dice, I'd be shocked if one of them were actually delivering the influence they intend.
Serious question: What does the DI do when they don't have the dice? Make a table minimum Pass or DP wager and hope they get the dice back quickly so they can start betting like crazy people and cashing in on their awesome dice skills?
Here's the real deal, some of these craps schools and great fiction writers need to segregate their students from the lucky rollers, that they call random roller's! The so-called random rollers do not have craps boards, were they brag about the rolls they had, unlike the so-called DI's!
They teach their students to never bet on the so-called random rollers! The reason for that is very simple, their students, just paid upwards to $3000 to take their stupid class, they don't want any of their students to know that a guy that just picked up the dice for the first time, can out roll them!
Just last night, some guy that was totally random hit five points, on the fire bet for me. I was only one that had five dollars bet on it. I see this kind of stuff every day in the casinos! Before they came out with all the books and classes on becoming a DI, I was just a little old random roller that just had a habit of setting the dice. Once those famous words, Dice Controller's or Dice Influencer's was coined, I became one of these Dice Controller's or Dice Influencer's, that I didn't even know existed, until one day some guy told me I was a Dice Controller.
I still say look at who holds the world's record for the longest roll ever on a craps table, that's right a so-called random roller. Go out and search on the websites, for slow-motion videos of what really happens when the dice hit the table, you can see that they are totally random!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc
There is just so much great fiction out there, on becoming a so-called DI that even the casinos believe it, I know when I get on a good roll, I just got lucky, and this is coming from someone everybody calls a DI. I've had roll in the 90s, I know guys had had them in the hundreds, and the one thing I will tell everybody, the next roll will probably be a PSO, don't bet on me, until at least the third roll the dice!
When I win at craps it's from knowing how bet the game and knowing when to walk away! Sometimes think that the CrapsGenious, of the world works for the casinos!
You cant get that
to have a 2% edge on every shot means you would have to have a 3.51% ability on the 6 & 8 and you would have to have a 6% edge on
getting the 5 & 9 and a 6.75% advantage on hitting the 4 & 10, to have a 2% advantage over-all. There is an inherent advantage for
the casino., and it is on every bet on the craps table.
Remember, the house edge is not figured by your ability to hit a 6 or 8 or 4 or 10, or the normal distribution of results, but the difference between what pure
odds would pay and what your actually paid. Even if you hit the number it applies. The only way to alter that casino edge is to be able to have a roll on average that is longer than 6 rolls, or repeat certain numbers more than the normal distribution would allow for. There is no possible way on a place bet to get
an advantage over that 8 on 1 roll, the house advantage of 1.52% applies each time you hit it, your advantage is repetition, out of every 36 rolls
i can hit 7 8's instead of 5. My average casino roll is 7.2 instead of 6 which means i have the opportunity to get paid one more time per roll and
so on.
Now for your comment that no one can get an advantage at the craps table.... that is again not a true statement, people
can and do, but getting good enough to have an advantage greater than the house advantage on 6 & 8 is at about 1.5%
is not the same as beating the advantage on the 4 & 10 at 4.75%. The advantage that a good DI has is knowing what to bet on
and how much to play and how the get out of the casino with a win.
Having a constant 2% would be a great dream
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterto have a 2% edge on every shot means you would have to have a 3.51% ability on the 6 & 8 and you would have to have a 6% edge on
getting the 5 & 9 and a 6.75% advantage on hitting the 4 & 10, to have a 2% advantage over-all.
Nobody said anything about having a 2% edge "over-all", and that inherently doesn't make any sense for a game like craps because you can bet on different and opposing propositions. It's impossible to take a pair of bets like "Place 6" and "Lay 6," both of which have house edges, and change the dice distribution so both of them become player-favorable. If one improves for the player, the other necessarily has a stronger house edge.
And if you have a 2% edge, you have a 2% edge. If your edge is 2% on the place 6 or 8, it is 3.51% greater than the edge under the distribution of equal die faces, but it's still 2%.
The expected ratio of 6s to 7s with an unaltered distribution of two dice is 5 to 6, or 0.454546 to 0.545454. If you can influence that ratio to be 0.470769 to 0.529231, you have an edge of 2% on the place 6 bet because the 7-to-6 payout doesn't change.
If you learn how to compute the house edge for yourself, you'll start to understand what factors go into changing it and what factors don't. You're not being accurate when you say stuff like this:
Quote:The only way to alter that casino edge is to be able to have a roll on average that is longer than 6 rolls, or repeat certain numbers more than the normal distribution would allow for. There is no possible way on a place bet to get an advantage over that 8 on 1 roll, the house advantage of 1.52% applies each time you hit it, your advantage is repetition, out of every 36 rolls i can hit 7 8's instead of 5.
That's all internally inconsistent, and much of it is wrong. If you have the ability to influence the dice according to the altered ratio above, you have a 2% edge on every single place 6 bet you make regardless of how many repeating numbers you throw or how long your average roll is.
Quote: dicesitterRemember, the house edge is not figured by your ability to hit a 6 or 8 or 4 or 10, or the normal distribution of results, but the difference between what pure
odds would pay and what your actually paid. Even if you hit the number it applies.
The pure odds payout is based on the normal distribution of results, so you are contradicting yourself.
The entire point of DI is to alter the "pure" odds, so yes, the edge is defined by the shooter's "skill" vs the payout.
Quote: dicesitterAxiom
You cant get that
to have a 2% edge on every shot means you would have to have a 3.51% ability on the 6 & 8 and you would have to have a 6% edge on
getting the 5 & 9 and a 6.75% advantage on hitting the 4 & 10, to have a 2% advantage over-all. There is an inherent advantage for
the casino., and it is on every bet on the craps table.
Remember, the house edge is not figured by your ability to hit a 6 or 8 or 4 or 10, or the normal distribution of results, but the difference between what pure
odds would pay and what your actually paid. Even if you hit the number it applies. The only way to alter that casino edge is to be able to have a roll on average that is longer than 6 rolls, or repeat certain numbers more than the normal distribution would allow for. There is no possible way on a place bet to get
an advantage over that 8 on 1 roll, the house advantage of 1.52% applies each time you hit it, your advantage is repetition, out of every 36 rolls
i can hit 7 8's instead of 5. My average casino roll is 7.2 instead of 6 which means i have the opportunity to get paid one more time per roll and
so on.
Now for your comment that no one can get an advantage at the craps table.... that is again not a true statement, people
can and do, but getting good enough to have an advantage greater than the house advantage on 6 & 8 is at about 1.5%
is not the same as beating the advantage on the 4 & 10 at 4.75%. The advantage that a good DI has is knowing what to bet on
and how much to play and how the get out of the casino with a win.
Having a constant 2% would be a great dream
dicesetter
This is complete nonsense. The edge on a bet is simply the weighted average of all the outcomes. When we say that the house has a 1.41% edge on the pass line we do not mean that the house has a 1.41% edge on every point that can be rolled (in fact, the house edge is much higher than that on any point). What we mean is that out of all possible sequences of rolls, the house wins an average of 1.41% of all the money bet. That's it. It's an average, weighted by probability.
If you could control the dice enough to have a 2% edge on the pass line bet, it would not mean that you have a 2% edge on every possible point. It would just mean that you would win an average of 2% of all the money bet on the pass line. And, in this case, you could clean out the casino. 2% is a monstrous edge when you can decide how much to bet, the limits are high, the variance is low, and there is no heat.
Sorry i did not get back on this right away, i was fishing, my advantage is better in the boat than at a
table....(laughing)
I am not sure i explained myself well here, and i guess i am not sure i understood your premise
correctly, so i will try again.
The casino has a house edge on every bet. To get a 2% advantage you would need an advantage large
enough to off set the house advantage....period
To get a 2% advantage on the pass line you would need an over-all advantage of 3.41% , to get a 2%
advantage on the DC you would need an over-all advantage on of 3.36%.
JUst a straight 2% advantage provides for a very small advanage in on the pass line and
DC and even smaller on a buy on 4 & 10 with the vig paid on win.
There is no possible way to get a 2% advantage over every bet on the table.
Also one would need to understand that if you have a 2% advantage, that also varies since that is
an average, there are days you have no advantage, days more. there is no such thing as saying you
have a 2% advantage so you will just stay at the table as long as it takes to get rich.
If you use smart craps or some other program to measure your toss, it is not hard to get a 2% advantage
at times or even high,but its not constant.
I am sure your thought was a " what if" situation....and i agree it would be fun if every time you went to the
table the advantage would just kick in like turning a switch, it would also be fun is all my hair grew back or
my pants fit now as well as they did when i was 22.
dicesetter
I still wonder how many times a year some of the posers on this board plays craps, or if they even do play the game at all.
We are not talking counting cards, we are talking about someone that can keep their dice on axis, the way that most of you think, it just doesn't happen. Now the funny part of this whole thing is over on a different thread, where I showed that the dice do not stay on axis even after dropping 6 inches and rolling 14 1/2 inches, the guys that are always posting that there is no such thing as dice control tried to find everything in the world wrong with what I showed, and then changed their position on dice control.
Again,.. Look at these videos, and tell me how in the world you think that the dice are staying on axis, so someone could have advantage over the casino!
Slow motion videos of dice shots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jej4WNRGyR8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZf3jbjie0&list=UUfDRf2L1rCEgYtGFlS_z9ag
So-called DI's do not win all the time. There is way too much fiction about becoming a DI, the casinos are running off losers. They should have taken the time years ago to evaluate slow-motion video of what happens when the dice hit the table.
I tell it like it really is, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The casinos are only interested in the shooter when they are winning, they never look at the guy that is shooting the dice when they are losing! Basically they are perpetuating the myth of dice control, and doing all the crazy things, that are costing them money in the long run, by running off losing players!
To stand a chance at winning at craps there are a lot more factors that affect the outcome of one roll of the dice, then just the throw. Now I hate to use analogies, but unlike someone's stinking a putt on the greens, there are plenty of things that happen when the shooter throws his dice.
Players are always throwing in late bets, the shooter's dice are hit money, as it's flying through the air. There is now a stack of chips, right were the shooter has been landed his dice. There is somebody screaming in his ear, to make the point that they just placed their money on.
I'm in the casinos up to seven days a week, and constantly see some of the most stupidest things that players will ever do when they have no consideration for the guy that is shooting the dice!
So back to my analogies, when a golfer is making the final putt to win his golf tournament everybody is perfectly quiet, there is nothing in the way for the ball that he is hitting to bump into anything.
The ball that he is using just happens to be perfectly round, unlike the square cubes that we throw through the air!
I didn't know that!Quote: superrickNobody,.. and I do mean nobody, can maintain an advantage over the casino playing craps all the time!
Quote: dicesitterTo get a 2% advantage on the pass line you would need an over-all advantage of 3.41% , to get a 2%
advantage on the DC you would need an over-all advantage on of 3.36%.
This makes no sense. You cannot just add these numbers together.
Quote:There is no possible way to get a 2% advantage over every bet on the table.
Why would you want an advantage on every bet on the table? Do you feel some insurmountable desire to bet every single bet on the table all at once? You only need the advantage on one bet on the table -- and then you make that bet. You bet it over and over again, varying your bets appropriately according to the Kelly Criterion, and you clean the casino out.
Quote:there is no such thing as saying you
have a 2% advantage so you will just stay at the table as long as it takes to get rich.
There would be if you could control the dice. Or, if anyone could.
Quote:If you use smart craps or some other program to measure your toss, it is not hard to get a 2% advantage
at times or even high,but its not constant.
Right. What's happening is, you are taking the times when you were luckier than average and claiming that you are controlling the dice for those times. And then you are taking the times when you are unluckier than average and calling those "off days".
Once, I got a royal flush in video poker. It paid over 1100 to 1! (progressive). I was controlling the button push and I had an edge of over 110,000%!!! Unfortunately all my other button presses came on off-days. I guess my advantage is not constant. But clearly I'm a BI (button influencer). How else could I have gotten a royal? You know that the odds of that are over 40,000 to 1 against, right? So, clearly, it wasn't random luck.
Quote:I am sure your thought was a " what if" situation....and i agree it would be fun if every time you went to the
table the advantage would just kick in like turning a switch, it would also be fun is all my hair grew back or
my pants fit now as well as they did when i was 22.
Yes, it would also be fun if people could actually control the dice.
Also, you can just buy bigger pants. They will fit just as well. That's my strategy. I am also a PI (pants influencer) in my spare time, when I am not influencing buttons.
Quote: TerribleTomWhen I read "2% advantage" I'm thinking of a shooter can roll sevens at a rate that is 2% lower (or higher) than expected.
That is a strange way to read it. I read it as, the player has a 2% advantage.
It is not necessary to roll 7s at a lower rate than usual to gain an advantage. For example, someone who slides one of the two dice while having the other tumble randomly rolls 7s at the normal rate but has an absolutely massive edge on some bets.
I am sorry i dont understand your point at all, ofcourse you need to consider the built in
edge a casino has over each bet. There is no other way to determine where and if you have a
2% advantage above that.
If your smart craps indicated you have a 4% advantage based on your data, you have to deduct the
builtin house edge from the 4% to see where you may have a playing advantage. Even though
you have a 4% advantage, placing the 4 & 9 with a house advantage of 4% gives no advantage
at all,so you are left with pass line dc or a buy on 4 & 10 with vig paid on a win. A 5% advantage
equates to all those plus a buy on 5 & 9 with vig paid on win or a field bet where they pay triple
on 2 and 12.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterAxiom
I am sorry i dont understand your point at all, ofcourse you need to consider the built in
edge a casino has over each bet. There is no other way to determine where and if you have a
2% advantage above that.
If your smart craps indicated you have a 4% advantage based on your data, you have to deduct the
builtin house edge from the 4% to see where you may have a playing advantage. Even though
you have a 4% advantage, placing the 4 & 9 with a house advantage of 4% gives no advantage
at all,so you are left with pass line dc or a buy on 4 & 10 with vig paid on a win. A 5% advantage
equates to all those plus a buy on 5 & 9 with vig paid on win or a field bet where they pay triple
on 2 and 12.
dicesetter
This is not the standard definition of the word "advantage".
The craps table and gambling is not your ordinary situation.
Look at it this way, when i was working i worked for some institutions
that had a platform fee for me to turn in my work. In other words if i had a
report i had to upload it to their platform and the fee was say $25 per report.
They indicated they paid the same as every other ventor in the industry at $300 per report,
this was true they paid the same, but what their subcontractors got was actually less
than all others.
Same with a casino. Say you played roulette and there was no numbers 0 or 00 so
you could bet the black and the red at the same time so you could play and never lose
and rack up comps... now you dream up some way of figuring out black and red while
having a equal distribution on the wheel dont really come out equal and it gives you
a 2% edge, in that case you have a 2% edge...
The craps table is not like that, on every bet youmake the house starts you in the hole.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterAxiom
The craps table and gambling is not your ordinary situation.
Look at it this way, when i was working i worked for some institutions
that had a platform fee for me to turn in my work. In other words if i had a
report i had to upload it to their platform and the fee was say $25 per report.
They indicated they paid the same as every other ventor in the industry at $300 per report,
this was true they paid the same, but what their subcontractors got was actually less
than all others.
Same with a casino. Say you played roulette and there was no numbers 0 or 00 so
you could bet the black and the red at the same time so you could play and never lose
and rack up comps... now you dream up some way of figuring out black and red while
having a equal distribution on the wheel dont really come out equal and it gives you
a 2% edge, in that case you have a 2% edge...
The craps table is not like that, on every bet youmake the house starts you in the hole.
dicesetter
This is very long and doesn't really say much.
Are you just trying to say that there is a house edge on every bet? I already knew that, and I think, so did everyone else.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThat is a strange way to read it. I read it as, the player has a 2% advantage.
It is not necessary to roll 7s at a lower rate than usual to gain an advantage. For example, someone who slides one of the two dice while having the other tumble randomly rolls 7s at the normal rate but has an absolutely massive edge on some bets.
I think I first got that impression here: https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/4/
Though at second look that perception might be more complex than I initially thought.
It looks like a rolls:seven ratio of 6.2-6.25 gives the payer an edge of 2% vs. the house. 0.25/6 = a little over 4% better than expected with rolling fewer sevens.
Dicesetter
If DI worked for real this phrase should not be a part of any successful DI's thought process. It sounds like a Bac or roulette system player nonsense.Quote: superrickAs long as you have not hit your loss limit
You should play the limits your bankroll allows in a worst case scenario. The idea should be to get in as many rolls as you possibly can each an everyday. Your bankroll should be growing and growing. I understand there are dumb foolish casino personnel who have overreacted to a few DI's, but this is Very rare. It seem like there is unlimited places 24/7 to play(unlike blackjack ans other AP opportunities). This is why...I don't understand why, DI's are not getting rich from PLAYING craps.
I know it takes some concentration but its just like pool or other types of games. I know, I can shoot pool or play video games until I pass out. I cant see why a DI cant play for 8 solid hrs a day. with a break here and there. My only guess is because there is no real edge and DI's depend on variance to create an illusion they are winning. So a loss limit becomes a bankroll saving tactic to create longevity before the inevitable bust out.
Ahh yes Henry, I knew him since I was 19.Quote: BuzzardI used to shoot pool om the only 41/2 by 9 table for 2 hours before Henry opened up. Then for several more hours the 4 by 8's were so easy. LOL
FYI he tried his hand at AP sometimes. He would play the original Odyssey 4 play 20/7/5 kob jokers at AZC. He asked for and followed a strategy card and went to drawings when he could and everything. If he couldn't make it, he would give me his tickets and split with me. He even had a +EV promotion in the Cue club. Nothing worth talking about, I didn't even mess with it, it was worth about 20 an hr on .25 laughable back then . You must know Travis and Toby(one of the best players in LV) Toby would offer me losses back rebates occasionally as well, but i declined.
Quote: AxelWolf
I know it takes some concentration but its just like pool or other types of games. I know, I can shoot pool or play video games until I pass out. I cant see why a DI cant play for 8 solid hrs a day. with a break here and there. My only guess is because there is no real edge and DI's depend on variance to create an illusion they are winning. So a loss limit becomes a bankroll saving tactic to create longevity before the inevitable bust out.
Everybody loves to compare craps to any other game or sport, where there is a ball involved, for some odd reason these posters just don't get it. You are throwing square cubes, that bounce, they do not roll, as a conventional ball would.
Also evidently, some just get the concept, that the longer you play in a casino the less likely you are to win. It should be quite obvious that the math of the game favors the casinos. So why in the world, would anybody want to play craps eight hours a day?
Anybody that gambles should have a loss limit, if you don't your a damn fool.
Quote: superrickEverybody loves to compare craps to any other game or sport, where there is a ball involved, for some odd reason these posters just don't get it. You are throwing square cubes, that bounce, they do not roll, as a conventional ball would.
Also evidently, some just get the concept, that the longer you play in a casino the less likely you are to win. It should be quite obvious that the math of the game favors the casinos. So why in the world, would anybody want to play craps eight hours a day?
Anybody that gambles should have a loss limit, if you don't your a damn fool.
I could not agree more on the first point. I don't think you can teach yourself to roll dice with anything even approaching the same kind of consistency you can achieve with billiards, golf, or any other ball sport. You might be able to achieve some minor fraction of consistency that is slightly different than expected probabilities. Maybe.
I don't know about 8 hours a day, but I certainly enjoy hanging out at the craps table for hours on end.
No doubt about the loss limit. When I go to the casino, I have some certain amount of money to spend on gambling. And yes, I mean spend. If I get lucky and don't spend it all (or, on rare occasion, actually leave the casino floor with more than I arrived with) well, good for me!
A daily loss limit? That's silly if your a serious AP. Your loss limit should be your bankroll or when conditions are no longer favorable. If you have a edge on something and conditions stay the same what dose it matter what day you lose your money on?Quote: superrickEverybody loves to compare craps to any other game or sport, where there is a ball involved, for some odd reason these posters just don't get it. You are throwing square cubes, that bounce, they do not roll, as a conventional ball would.
Also evidently, some just get the concept, that the longer you play in a casino the less likely you are to win. It should be quite obvious that the math of the game favors the casinos. So why in the world, would anybody want to play craps eight hours a day?
Anybody that gambles should have a loss limit, if you don't your a damn fool.
If you are playing a negative game then of course you should have a daily loss limit. That's exactly why most DI's have one, they know dam well they are going to lose and they don't want to do it all in one day.
I like to compare craps to other sporting activities because it is the same. I have not compared the dice to a
golf ball or a bowling ball, but rather the physical activity you have to replicate prior to throwing orhitting the
ball.
Dice throwing is much harder than any other sport because force and stength play no part.
Look at the dice roll....
grip
hand postion
equal pressure with thumb and fingers
back swing, speed of swing
release point
hand position at release
shoulder ratation.
now extend that to the fact that you are trying to throw two objects the same way not one.
It is no wonder that even the best cant stand at a table and play all day with the type of influence
it takes to win. It is no wonder there are days when nothing works.
Here i agree with both superrick and Axelwolf............. you have to be some kind of stupid not to have
a loss limit, and many times that limit should not be the money you lost, but rather the conditions
you are playing under.
dicesetter
Quote: superrickAlso evidently, some just get the concept, that the longer you play in a casino the less likely you are to win. It should be quite obvious that the math of the game favors the casinos. So why in the world, would anybody want to play craps eight hours a day?
If you truly had the edge, the opposite would be true. The longer you play with the edge, the more likely you are to win.
The fact you never hear about anyone with consistent winnings over thousands of hours of craps play is pretty strong circumstantial evidence that nobody's out there playing dice with an edge. There are many people with consistent winnings over thousands of hours of blackjack or poker play. Some frequent this site.
Quote: DeMangoIf I had winnings over thousands of hours of craps play, I sure as heck wouldn't broadcast it here to the extremist crowd. I did hear from dealers and one boxman about one player who got 86'd from a MS Gulf Coast casino last year. He was up $80K playing the don't. Didn't ask if he was the shooter or not, a "so called DI" or not.
It's not just here, you never hear about it period. I saw a guy win nearly that much on a single roll of the dice once. 5k on the line, point of 6, full 5x odds, 2k hard 6 and right before the roll 500 on hopping hard 6. 6 came hard, he won $68k in one roll. He wasn't shooting; it wasn't an AP thing at all, just a whale at the MGM one Sunday morning. Point is, despite all the books and videos and seminars and hocus pocus, there are no consistent stories about dice winners the way there are about blackjack or poker. And blackjack AP lingo is both consistent and calculable -- the count for a given counting system is well defined and so is the edge under a given count and game conditions. There is no equivalent for dice influencing, and the favorite statistic for the would-be dice influencers (SRR) is fundamentally flawed as a correlation to house edge.
Quote: DeMangoIf I had winnings over thousands of hours of craps play, I sure as heck wouldn't broadcast it here to the extremist crowd. I did hear from dealers and one boxman about one player who got 86'd from a MS Gulf Coast casino last year. He was up $80K playing the don't. Didn't ask if he was the shooter or not, a "so called DI" or not.
I would be pissed if I was up 80k and they 86'd me just because I was winning. There must be more to the story? I could see a DP who was being an arse being asked to leave, especially if he was driving away other players who had money to wager. Or, he could have been habitually making late bets, or hands in the tub, etc. I have seen some DP players try that crap, hoping to cause the 7 out.
Do you have any more detail on what happened, and which casino?
Quote: RaleighCrapsI would be pissed if I was up 80k and they 86'd me just because I was winning. There must be more to the story? I could see a DP who was being an arse being asked to leave, especially if he was driving away other players who had money to wager. Or, he could have been habitually making late bets, or hands in the tub, etc. I have seen some DP players try that crap, hoping to cause the 7 out.
Do you have any more detail on what happened, and which casino?
Ditto. If you're making money off of other shooters, how the hell can they kick you out unless you are otherwise an ass?
Quote: DeMangoRC: The casino is 3.8 miles due west of BR. This is a low roller casino. This was an accumulated win over the course of a year. Not a one time event. He was either lucky or good. Never asked the question if he shot or not. If he did he is good. If he didn't he got lucky. I'll ask next time.
That logic doesn't exactly follow in the black-and-white sense you've laid out. It'd be more accurate to say that if he only bet on his own rolls, and just stood there while the other players played, there's an outside chance he is good. You can't possibly be a "dice influencer" if you're not even touching the dice.
But more to the point, he was still probably just lucky. I assume you don't hold the belief that anyone who has a winning roll is "good" merely because they were rolling. I've had several hands worth $1000, including one with 12 passes in a row. Was I lucky or good?
Quote: DeMangoIf I had winnings over thousands of hours of craps play, I sure as heck wouldn't broadcast it here to the extremist crowd. I did hear from dealers and one boxman about one player who got 86'd from a MS Gulf Coast casino last year. He was up $80K playing the don't. Didn't ask if he was the shooter or not, a "so called DI" or not.
I've seen more then one guy get banned playing the don't and never even picking up the dice, to top that one off I've even seen one slot player get banned because she got lucky to many time!
Quote: TerribleTomDitto. If you're making money off of other shooters, how the hell can they kick you out unless you are otherwise an ass?
They can do anything they want to, and you have no recourse! Players get banned all the time here in Vegas and you don't have to be a wise ass, all you have to do is have a winning history.
Quote: TerribleTomNothing would make me happier than to get kicked out of a casino for winning too much.
Well there is a problem with that, any more you could be banned for all the casinos they run if you get banned from one, like Boyd Gaming, MGM, Station Casinos, and the list goes on and on!
Whether it is luck of skill, it really does not matter, if the casino thinks you have some type
of system or roll that is repeatable and your winning, they are watching you.
I have myself said it would be fun to have someone say hey you cant play here...well i thought
that until it happens.
In Wisconsin here we have two casino's within 45 minutes, one has 16 foot table and theY banned
us from sitting the dice on the other one, now what do you do.
Sue & I have had many free trips to Laughlin and enjoyed it, last year i was prevented from
throwing at the trop and that table is a great table to play on....this year we had planned a months trip
out there, and decided to go to Henderson instead of Laughlin because of it.
For the most part it is how you look, they can see a Parr or GTC roll a mile away. YOU cant reach out and
set the dice, square them for 20 seconds and then aim and throw. I dont think it is any one person so much
as it is a general rule no setting, no GTC rollers, no nothing. If you set and roll quickly, most places will
allow you to play.
But getting hazzeled is not as much fun as you think. I will say my past months stay in the vegas area
this year showed me less crap than i saw the year before.
Dicesetter
I don't even try to set the dice. My interest in this particular sub-forum is primarily one of awe and disbelief.
I play the don't. I don't make any other bets. I will shoot the dice, but I do so quickly and with no set at at all. I have no illusions about my personal dice rolls. I know I can lose at craps just as well as anyone and I bet accordingly. I have seen some wrong bettors that refuse to shoot. Good for them. I don't pass on the opportunity to shoot, I figure I've got as much chance to seven out as the next guy.
I have seen some folks trying to influence the dice with a very specific set and toss. Maybe it worked. Maybe not. The very notion of influencing the dice seems highly unlikely to me, and I suspect that the majority of folks who think they're influencing the dice are mistaken.
If I were to get kicked out of a casino for winning too much, that would be the only reason they had. I mostly just hang out, keep my mouth shut and make my little DP wagers. Some nights I win, some nights I lose, but every night I have a good time. Which is, for me, the point of the entire exercise.
I don't want to put forth the effort to count cards, I'm not going to buy a full sized craps table to put in my garage to practice my dice rolling. I'm not looking for an advantage, just a good time.
I understand, but in the end they can decide who they want play or not play...period.
Look at dice setting.... you were correct when you said most dice setters only think they
contril them....so what....just like you should have a right to throw the dice anyway you
want to play the donts, i should have the right to throw anyway i want
the casino should not have the right to throw some one out because they try to win.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitter
For the most part it is how you look, they can see a Parr or GTC roll a mile away. YOU cant reach out and
set the dice, square them for 20 seconds and then aim and throw. I dont think it is any one person so much
as it is a general rule no setting, no GTC rollers, no nothing. If you set and roll quickly, most places will
allow you to play.
But getting hazzeled is not as much fun as you think. I will say my past months stay in the vegas area
this year showed me less crap than i saw the year before.
Dicesetter
There isn't a Parr or a GTC shooter that can hide from the casinos, and they only have theirselfs to blame, no I take that back, I should have said the schools that would take all their students down to a casino and play musical shooters, rotating shooters in stick right or stick left. Then posting outrageous stories about how much money they supposedly won, when they were playing craps!
They went so far as producing slick videos to sell their schools, like this one, and they even went on TV to show the world how they could win at craps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhno_F9vZcw
Quote: dicesitterTerribletom
I understand, but in the end they can decide who they want play or not play...period.
Look at dice setting.... you were correct when you said most dice setters only think they
contril them....so what....just like you should have a right to throw the dice anyway you
want a play the donts, i should have the right to throw anyway i want
the casino should not have the right to throw some one out because they try to win.
dicesetter
Most so-called DI's are only throwing their money away, they now tell me that Heavy, even said that he thinks only 1% of the DI's if that is what you want to call them can actually win at playing craps!
I maybe wrong, but I think dicesetters said this one, I know that I've said it many times before,...If you stick $1.25 in a slot machine and hit a jackpot for $1250.00 they put a picture of you up on the wall, but if you won that much at the craps table and you are setting the dice they try to run you off!
The main reason this is all happening, is because of all the fiction that is written by some of our famous fiction writers on dice setting. There are way too many players that are looking for the magic bullet, when there is none. So they resort to living in La la land, and never call out these fiction writers! The casinos believe all this BS, that they are writing, way to funny if you ask me!
...
Quote: dicesitterI understand, but in the end they can decide who they want play or not play...period.
Look at dice setting.... you were correct when you said most dice setters only think they
contril them....so what....just like you should have a right to throw the dice anyway you
want a play the donts, i should have the right to throw anyway i want
the casino should not have the right to throw some one out because they try to win.
On one hand, it's a private business and they should and do have the right to ask any patron to leave at any time for pretty much any legal reason (obviously, they can't discriminate on race/religion/ethincity).
On the other hand...
Quote: superrickI maybe wrong, but I think dicesetters said this one, I know that I've said it many times before,...If you stick $1.25 in a slot machine and hit a jackpot for $1250.00 they put a picture of you up on the wall, but if you won that much at the craps table and you are setting the dice they try to run you off!
There's a lot of truth here. There's a skill playing poker - the ability to read the tells of your opponent(s) - but a lot of poker is played with a commission to the house and not against the house. There's counting cards, something the casinos combat with multiple decks, etc. And then we have craps. The only game in the house where human dexterity could possibly have an impact on the game. The alligator wall, the long toss and requirement of hitting said wall, fresh dice, whatever - the house tries to ensure as much randomness as possible but there's still that possibility that some shooter might actually be able to throw the dice in such a way as to influence the outcome of the game.
That's got to scare the living shit out of the industry. Justified or otherwise.
Quote: TerribleTomthere's still that possibility that some shooter might actually be able to throw the dice in such a way as to influence the outcome of the game.
That's got to scare the living shit out of the industry. Justified or otherwise.
Not only that, but it scares the living shit out of certain posters on this board!
That's got to scare the living shit out of the industry. Justified or otherwise.
See now that is the funny part....... it should not scare the hell out of anyone, they should have a bill board
out front announcing that they play craps here and last night John had a 42 roll and hit 5 points and
made $1800.
Come inside and have the best craps experience of your life.
That is what a smart casino would do!!!!!!! I guy makes a few bucks ( no more than the average guy wins on
a fire bet now and then) and the other 100 guys that think they can control the dice lose.
A casino manager has to be some kind of stupid not to see the money they are throwing down the drain, not to
mention it is not good for the game, the casino or crew to have all these tables sitting empty.
You look at every TV casino add, they always show the excitement of a craps table, then they try to make it
a chore when you get there.
But then again what do i know, i dont own any casino, though i may have paid for a few.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterSee now that is the funny part....... it should not scare the hell out of anyone, they should have a bill board
out front announcing that they play craps here and last night John had a 42 roll and hit 5 points and
made $1800.
Some casinos actually do this. Not necessarily outdoors on the billboard, and not reporting win amounts (because that's obviously related to bet sizes) but I know at least the Atlantis in Reno has TVs set up around its dice pit to record long rolls with the first name of the shooter. They even have a contest running - the longest hand of the day gets a cash prize, second longest gets a shirt or something.
The reason casinos don't like dice setters isn't because they win more money. It's because all the books and seminars have taught a particular way of aligning and throwing the dice that takes most setters about 7-10 seconds of fiddling to achieve. Adding 7-10 seconds to the average duration between throws has a meaningful impact on the overall number of rolls per hour and therefore the expected profitability of a dice table. It's like the extreme couponing people in grocery stores -- if you're the cashier, you don't care that they're saving lots of money, you just care that they're holding up the line for your other customers.
I would agree with all you said except one thing......i have seen many random rollers take much more time
than a DI and the casino says nothing.... they dont care about the time except they say they do. that is
just an excuse. I used the example of you cant set the dice and aim 20 seconds just to suggest you standout,
most DI's i know set and throw quick.
I 100% agree with a contest daily for the best roll... let the fun begin
that is good for everyone
dicesetter
I think Tom is more accurate about the fear or belief on the casinos part of the possibility of someone being able to influence the dice. It can't be about the time it takes to set and throw?
I've seen the casinos teaching people how to play. When they do that do they inform potential players that they have 3 seconds to get it done? That's what they told me at the VR in Mesquite. Three seconds, that's movin it right along.
To me it's a forest for the tree's thing. If they wanted to speed up the game they would eliminate the hop bets. I've stood there with the dice plenty of times while some late better is allowed to make a hop bet and change they're mind and delay the game. Then just as I'm ready to throw, in comes a late bet or a buy in and they swing the dice back to the prop area while that is getting settled. Then... they give me the dice back and in short order I arrange and throw [because I'm superstitious] and they are telling me to hit the back wall as both of my dice bounce off the back wall almost to the prop area.
I can see where the casinos fear a potential di, if it were possible especially with a fire bet or ats, and a shooter having co-conspirators around the table. Eight or ten partners betting the max on a fire bet when a dc was throwing could eat up a day or month's table hold in one turn of the dice. Here though at least on my part lies the rub,, dice control is not possible imho. So put up the monitor's, promote long rolls and let's have fun.
If you consider all the things that slow down a game here hence rolls per hour, I do believe someone actually attempting di isn't the problem with game speed. Yet they are the ones who get the heat. Even di deniers [wanted to use that term] will admit that practiced dice throwers are not slow, therefore it must be fear on the part of the casino?
http://vitalvegas.com/craps-players-love-downtowns-fremont-casino/
Another mention here (see #6 on the list):
http://blog.totalrewards.com/las-vegas/las-vegas-restaurant/20-new-things-in-downtown-las-vegas/
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2000/may/03/welcome-to-the-golden-arm-club-where-membership-is/
Quote: petroglyph
To me it's a forest for the tree's thing. If they wanted to speed up the game they would eliminate the hop bets. I've stood there with the dice plenty of times while some late better is allowed to make a hop bet and change they're mind and delay the game. Then just as I'm ready to throw, in comes a late bet or a buy in and they swing the dice back to the prop area while that is getting settled. Then... they give me the dice back and in short order I arrange and throw [because I'm superstitious] and they are telling me to hit the back wall as both of my dice bounce off the back wall almost to the prop area.
If you consider all the things that slow down a game here hence rolls per hour, I do believe someone actually attempting di isn't the problem with game speed. Yet they are the ones who get the heat. Even di deniers [wanted to use that term] will admit that practiced dice throwers are not slow, therefore it must be fear on the part of the casino?
Let's get real, casinos make their money off of rolls per hour and let's not forget those dynamic prop, that certain people love to bet!
All of the problems concerning all of the harassment that DI's get was brought on by the dice schools.
That went on TV and used massive amounts of propaganda to sell their schools, they even produce slick marketing videos of their star shooter, “Dominator.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhno_F9vZcw
Casinos actually believed the propaganda the schools were producing. So in all of their wisdom they put countermeasures in place. They made the tables where nobody could keep the dice on the table, they thought that by doing so no so-called DI's couldn't beat them. What they actually did was cost themselves money by doing so. Casinos make money off of rolls per hour, they can't make money when the dice on the floor!
The sad part of this is all they had to do was to watch some slow-motion videos of what the dice actually do when they hit the tables.
Slow motion videos of dice shots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jej4WNRGyR8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZf3jbjie0&list=UUfDRf2L1rCEgYtGFlS_z9ag
If you you went to one of these schools or loved to read some of the great fiction that is written about becoming a DI, you can thank them for all the harassment you get when you set set the dice!
It's about time that we put a stop to all of this fiction that is written about the so-called DI's, if you read something that is so outrages on one of the craps boards, call the poster out on it. A good example of a outrageous post would be, where the poster claimed to take a cool half-million off the table on a $2000 buy-in.
Quote:As I mentioned above, all 13 PL-Points only encompassed three numbers (the 4, the 6, and the 10). For me, that in itself was a pretty high accomplishment that is rare as can be. I’ve thrown 13-Pointers before; but never were they restricted to just three different box-numbers.
While his claim to fame took a little figuring out to do, we came up with around a cool half million win, on a $2000 buy-in!
This is the kind of stuff that will make any casino cringe, if they believe this kind of fiction!
Quote: superrickif you read something that is so outrages on one of the craps boards, call the poster out on it.
I see multiple threads where you bash the concept of DI, then follow that up with an implication you yourself are a DI or know 'real' DI's.
Please clarify
