Throwing a knuckleball!

If I am posting in the wrong forum, I apologize. It seems to me if the dice land flat they will not move as much? As opposed to the dice spinning a little. I have the ability to throw a mean knuckleball and I can do it with dice as well with no problem. Do you think this will help if I set the dice the proper way?

Quote: mds

If I am posting in the wrong forum, I apologize. It seems to me if the dice land flat they will not move as much? As opposed to the dice spinning a little. I have the ability to throw a mean knuckleball and I can do it with dice as well with no problem. Do you think this will help if I set the dice the proper way?

In my opinion, as a non-dice expert, you are in exactly the right topic/forum, and there should be folks replying to you any time now. Welcome! I would think that if dice-setting is possible, a knuckleballer would throw them better than most.

Hey, I use the overland grip with parachute landing and currently am able to roll a 7 at a rate 1 in 6.

Big deal, I go cross seam and and get very close to the same result.

But I get style points and the table bets with me.

I'm thinking of switching to the split finger. How Long do y'all think it will take me to become proficient.

I have found that the top spin shots work better than backspin or no spin if you are tinkering with the D.I. thing.

I will give you a serious reply:

If you can manage to have the dice hit on a flat surface or along an edge you have a better chance of influencing the throw.

If your dice hit the table on a corner, all hope is lost and you will have zero control.

The easiest way to determine this is to take a sheet of aluminum foil and spread it out on your bed. Throw the dice and see if the dice leave marks that appear to be stripes or stars. If there are stars you are hitting on the points.

Quote: AlanMendelson

The easiest way to determine this is to take a sheet of aluminum foil and spread it out on your bed. .

The fact that people do this cracks me up no
end. Just to get some fantasy edge over the
casino. And if they even think you have this
fantasy edge, they'll back you off. Funnier than
funny.

Appi: You mean forward spin?

Quote: EvenBob

The fact that people do this cracks me up no
end. Just to get some fantasy edge over the
casino. And if they even think you have this
fantasy edge, they'll back you off. Funnier than
funny.

The discussion isn't about if DI is real or not. So for once put your own agenda aside and respond to a question. Or don't.

Quote: mds

If I am posting in the wrong forum, I apologize. It seems to me if the dice land flat they will not move as much? As opposed to the dice spinning a little. I have the ability to throw a mean knuckleball and I can do it with dice as well with no problem. Do you think this will help if I set the dice the proper way?

Funny you mention this, because I was thinking the same thing. I'm no expert in physics, but it just seems logical that dice landing flush with the table would yield more favorable results. Who knows though...

(For the record, I do believe that DI is possible in theory, but in practice? It's probably easier to get a hole-in-one in golf two times in a row.)

Quote: Buzzard

Hey, I use the overland grip with parachute landing and currently am able to roll a 7 at a rate 1 in 6.

Big deal, I can get any other number 5/6 times and IO do it over the course of a year or more! Can you get a 7 1/6 times over that long of a time frame?

yes, forward spin........obtained easily with an underhand shot and still possible with an overhand shot (lots of wrist action)

Quote: ontariodealer

yes, forward spin........obtained easily with an underhand shot and still possible with an overhand shot (lots of wrist action)

Overhand like throwing a baseball or a football? I've never once seen someone do this...

Quote: MathExtremist

Overhand like throwing a baseball or a football? I've never once seen someone do this...

Overhand meaning a regular parr shot that would normally produce backspin. I never have either but I suppose you could do it.

As for the knuckleball, if one could do it consistently, I think it would be a shot that could potentially obtain influence because you are controlling pitch. I've tried this shot, and I can't do it. I can throw a knuckleball but the dice get a wobble and I can't land them consistently flat, which I think would be important.

Quote: MathExtremist

Overhand like throwing a baseball or a football? I've never once seen someone do this...

I think the key word was forward spin.


The underhand part I believe you already understood. It is supposed to work by letting the dice roll down your hand from the heal toward the fingers and then a swishing type motion as the dice reach the tips of the fingers putting forward or top spin on the dice.

Also, I think the other method is similar to putting top spin on a ping pong ball using the thumb as the paddle bringing it up rapidly putting the same top spin on the dice.

Supposedly, the theory is if the dice bounce up underneath the pyramids with that type of spin they will drop to the felt and not bounce clear back to the prop area.


I watched one gal, first time at the game throw them overhand like a shot put, kinda funny but she rolled steadily for a half hour or longer.


edit: I think the underhand shot is similar to what Scarne described as a blanket roll/toss.

I found it is very hard to land the dice with the leading edge first when throwing the knuckler....the OH throw with topspin is tricky, looks very quirky but I land a huge amount of dead cat bounces with it....in a no heat place, this is a tremendous shot.

Alan



what you say is correct, i have not used aluminum, but soft writing paper on the table is fine.

It shows how your dice are landing in relationship to each other.

You can also use a glossy magazine, if the dice hit flat they will just slide to the
back wall.

On the very low shots on short tables where you want the dice to stay under the aligator
board the dice have to hit the same.

You have excellent points, to bad they are way over the heads of some of the people
on this board.

dicesetter

dicesetter... it's been a few weeks since I glanced at this thread.

There are two kinds of people when it comes to the idea about dice influencing:

1. those who understand its limitations and therefore can understand the possibility of it

2. those who misunderstand what dice influencing might be able to accomplish and therefore dismiss any possibility of it

If you believe that the world is not flat, then you should believe in the possibility of dice influencing. I say that because the physics and geometry and yes, the math, of dice influencing all make perfect sense. That doesn't mean that a human being can accomplish it -- it only means that it is possible.

But it is that possibility that allows people to try and maybe to accomplish. That's all.

Personally, I don't consider someone who can throw a "well influenced" or even "controlled" throw one in ten times, or one in three times to have any particular talent, skill or gift. However, that doesn't mean that the person who has a well influenced or even "controlled" throw 10% of the time, or 33% shouldn't continue to try to do better.

And for all the critics of Dice Influencing all I can say is this: if you believe the game of craps is nothing more than a random game then IT HURTS NO ONE if people try to influence or even control the dice with what is considered to be an acceptable throw (meaning no sliding). Dice influencing does not hurt you. So leave the believers be. Play your own game, and let those who want to try to influence the dice keep trying.

Quote: mds

If I am posting in the wrong forum, I apologize. It seems to me if the dice land flat they will not move as much? As opposed to the dice spinning a little. I have the ability to throw a mean knuckleball and I can do it with dice as well with no problem. Do you think this will help if I set the dice the proper way?

If you think for a moment, about what a knuckleball does in the air then you would reconsider your strategy pretty quickly if indeed this is about dice control. A knuckleball is supposed to dance in unpredictable ways. If you were seeking more control over dice, then why would you use a tried and true method that produces more randomness?

Quote: s2dbaker

If you think for a moment, about what a knuckleball does in the air then you would reconsider your strategy pretty quickly if indeed this is about dice control. A knuckleball is supposed to dance in unpredictable ways. If you were seeking more control over dice, then why would you use a tried and true method that produces more randomness?

He was using an analogy, Einstein. And I think everyone other than you knows exactly what he meant. Also, as an FYI, a knuckleball moves unpredictably because of the stitched seams on the baseball. Dice don't have seams. Duh!

http://accessscience.com/studycenter.aspx?main=17&questionID=5579

Quote: AlanMendelson

dicesetter... it's been a few weeks since I glanced at this thread.

There are two kinds of people when it comes to the idea about dice influencing:

1. those who understand its limitations and therefore can understand the possibility of it

2. those who misunderstand what dice influencing might be able to accomplish and therefore dismiss any possibility of it

If you believe that the world is not flat, then you should believe in the possibility of dice influencing. I say that because the physics and geometry and yes, the math, of dice influencing all make perfect sense. That doesn't mean that a human being can accomplish it -- it only means that it is possible.

But it is that possibility that allows people to try and maybe to accomplish. That's all.

Personally, I don't consider someone who can throw a "well influenced" or even "controlled" throw one in ten times, or one in three times to have any particular talent, skill or gift. However, that doesn't mean that the person who has a well influenced or even "controlled" throw 10% of the time, or 33% shouldn't continue to try to do better.

And for all the critics of Dice Influencing all I can say is this: if you believe the game of craps is nothing more than a random game then IT HURTS NO ONE if people try to influence or even control the dice with what is considered to be an acceptable throw (meaning no sliding). Dice influencing does not hurt you. So leave the believers be. Play your own game, and let those who want to try to influence the dice keep trying.

Alan

I would submit that I'm in category 3. I don't understand DI's limitations, but I've seen it done, so I know it can be. I told the story about it 2 months ago, at Harrahs during G2E. One guy is enough to prove it to me.

And 33% (well, .366) was good enough for Ty Cobb lifetime to be the best hitter in baseball; more than adequate +ev if that's your DI batting average.

Quote: beachbumbabs

And 33% (well, .366) was good enough for Ty Cobb lifetime to be the best hitter in baseball; more than adequate +ev if that's your DI batting average.

The reason why a 33% rate doesn't convince me of DI skills is that random shooters can have that or even a better rate of good throws or avoiding the 7.

In baseball, I doubt random players (any Joe walking off the street) could match Ty Cobb's batting average.

My point is different sports have different thresholds for "amazing stuff." We know that in craps people with no skill whatsoever can have "amazing stuff" at the table and that sets a higher standard for those claiming to be DIs or DCs to meet.

My preference is a "no rotation while in mid-air" toss, if possible. A flat drop shot in your desired landing zone should yield a decent result. Flat hit w/ dice still together in formation, one bounce to the back wall and sit. I've had my fair share of positive results this way, once I've determined the best dice set for the table. Granted, there are some days & tables where I might as well be throwing marbles because I can't get them to sit quietly for nothing. I prefer a 3 finger backhand grip w/ the middle finger on the seam. (thumb on the opposite seam, of course) I don't want to be more than 2 right or 2 left of the stick man as I want to limit the flight time. Helps being ambidextrous if you want to throw down table in a straight line & make a true, perpendicular bounce to the back wall. If you veer left or right, then the angles come into play & the dice make their own decisions. (LoL)
Now ... with all of this being said, I cannot honestly say that I have had more winning sessions than losing sessions trying to control the dice. All I know is that when it IS working, people look at you like you're a (pardon the expression) WIZARD, which is a lot of fun. One thing I do know: In the middle of a good shoot, I know the second the dice leave my hand when I've screwed up & have thrown a 7. Whether I missed my landing zone, missed my height, loosened my grip & let the dice separate or just hit the chips stacked at the end of the table ... I know when it's coming when it leaves my hand. Yet, for some crazy reason I cannot intentionally throw a ton of 7's in a row when I try to. Tough game, this Craps. ;)

Quote: Beethoven9th

a knuckleball moves unpredictably because of the stitched seams on the baseball. Dice don't have seams. Duh!

http://accessscience.com/studycenter.aspx?main=17&questionID=5579

Link doesn't work. But a knuckle ball lacks the stability given by spin; I never heard that the seams had anything to do with it. Is that what the link says when it works?

Quote: odiousgambit

Link doesn't work. But a knuckle ball lacks the stability given by spin; I never heard that the seams had anything to do with it. Is that what the link says when it works?

That's so weird. It worked just yesterday.



Anyway, the knuckleball's movement has to do with the airflow over the seams while traveling through the air.

Quote: From Wikipedia

...the purpose of the knuckleball is to avoid the rotational spin normally created by the act of throwing a ball. In the absence of this rotation, the ball's trajectory is significantly affected by variations in airflow caused by differences between the smooth surface of the ball and the stitching of its seams. The asymmetric drag that results tends to deflect the trajectory toward the side with the stitches.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Anyway, the knuckleball's movement has to do with the airflow over the seams while traveling through the air.

You learn something new everyday!

The effect of "no spin" by itself is substantial, note how inaccurate the musketball from a smoothbore is compared to the bullet fired from a rifle. I guess in the former, however, once a trajectory is set it probably changes little; with a baseball, trajectory might actually change midway. No wonder they are maddening to the batter.

Quote: odiousgambit

Link doesn't work. But a knuckle ball lacks the stability given by spin; I never heard that the seams had anything to do with it. Is that what the link says when it works?

I'm a huge knuckleball fan. It started for me when I read the book "Ball 4" by Jim Bouton.
My understanding is you throw it with no spin and let the air currents control the movement.
Catchers hate the knuckleball because they have no idea where it will end. Could be high or low, inside or outside. Pitcher, Catcher, batter, nobody knows where the ball will end up.

Quote: terapined

I'm a huge knuckleball fan. It started for me when I read the book "Ball 4" by Jim Bouton.
My understanding is you throw it with no spin and let the air currents control the movement.
Catchers hate the knuckleball because they have no idea where it will end. Could be high or low, inside or outside. Pitcher, Catcher, batter, nobody knows where the ball will end up.

yeah, sure.

Quote: terapined

I'm a huge knuckleball fan. It started for me when I read the book "Ball 4" by Jim Bouton.
My understanding is you throw it with no spin and let the air currents control the movement.
Catchers hate the knuckleball because they have no idea where it will end. Could be high or low, inside or outside. Pitcher, Catcher, batter, nobody knows where the ball will end up.

Me too. Love watching knuckleballers pitch. I had a pretty decent decent one in high school when I pitched, in fact it became my primary pitch. Of course it only worked really well into the wind because I didn't have a ton of velocity....which is why I threw a bunch of junk including the knuckler in the first place, lol

Quote: odiousgambit

You learn something new everyday!

Sharp square dice edges would amplify the destabilizing effect through the air.

Quote: s2dbaker

Sharp square dice edges would amplify the destabilizing effect through the air.

Geez man how far you throwing the darn things?

Quote: petroglyph

Geez man how far you throwing the darn things?

You haven't seen me shoot :)

Quote: petroglyph

Geez man how far you throwing the darn things?

He just wants to avoid backtracking on his previous (incorrect) statement.

My "Bill O'Reilly shot" works pretty well on certain tables. I enter the no spin zone.

I still say if you can land the dice flat with no explosion (Bouncing all over the place) you have an advantage. Can this be done? I think so. Maybe a lower toss and/or the knuckleball without movement.

Quote: mds

I still say if you can land the dice flat with no explosion (Bouncing all over the place) you have an advantage. Can this be done? I think so. Maybe a lower toss and/or the knuckleball without movement.

I've done it. Once, by accident -- shooting from straightaway at the Golden Nugget, the dice just both died when they hit the table, about 2 feet short. Everyone was shocked, but they didn't no-roll the throw because it was neither the point nor 7.

If you think you can do that on purpose more than say 1/100 times, you may be on to something. Can you regularly throw the dice with no bounce at all? I've only done it once in my entire life.

I dunno, but I've decided landing together is a problem ... the dice then explode indeed, and ruin the possibility of being on axis.

I'm actually working on them landing one ahead of the other.

Bear in mind I don't take this seriously, it's just fun. I'll get a chance to try my stuff Tuesday.

Quote: terapined

I'm a huge knuckleball fan. It started for me when I read the book "Ball 4" by Jim Bouton.
My understanding is you throw it with no spin and let the air currents control the movement.
Catchers hate the knuckleball because they have no idea where it will end. Could be high or low, inside or outside. Pitcher, Catcher, batter, nobody knows where the ball will end up.

Same here. I've seen Tim Wakefield pitch a few times. I've also seen Hoyt Wilhelm pitch and he was amazing. Does anyone remember him? Buzz, were you in Baltimore back then?

Quote:

MDS
I still say if you can land the dice flat with no explosion (Bouncing all over the place) you have an advantage. Can this be done? I think so. Maybe a lower toss and/or the knuckleball without movement.

Here is the real deal MSD, I don’t care how good you think you are, you can’t do it every time you pick up the dice. It only happens in fairy tales, and this is coming from someone that everybody calls a DI. I will be the first to tell you and anybody else, that the so-called DI’s can’t do it every time they pick up the dice, there are too many variables happening on the craps tables we play on! That doesn’t have anything to do with your shooting, and we are not machines, after all.

Quote:

MathExtremist
I've done it. Once, by accident -- shooting from straightaway at the Golden Nugget, the dice just both died when they hit the table, about 2 feet short. Everyone was shocked, but they didn't no-roll the throw because it was neither the point nor 7.

If you think you can do that on purpose more than say 1/100 times, you may be on to something. Can you regularly throw the dice with no bounce at all? I've only done it once in my entire life.

Yes, everybody get lucky and sometimes you will see a total random shooter do the same thing, when making a shot, you read a lot of things about what DI’s call the DeadCat Bounce, but the truth of the matter is you don’t see someone throwing it all the time. The problem with that shot is very simple, they would take the dice off you if you could do it all the time, and would probably take them off you if you even did it a few times when you were shooting. I’ve got lucky quite a few times and landed my dice on top of one in other, if that is what you want to call it, depending on the casino I was playing in at the time, they were called a no roll and a few casinos called it a roll. Just goes to show you anything can happen when you are shooting. My best shots have always been the ones that ended up between the breasts of a well endowed woman player that was hanging over the chip rail.

I don’t know of one DI school that even tries to teach this shot, most schools that teach anything are on axis shooting. There are only two that I know that teach off axis shooting, which I say is the way to go, after all your dice do not stay on axis when anybody is shooting!

Quote:

odiousgambit
I dunno, but I've decided landing together is a problem ... the dice then explode indeed, and ruin the possibility of being on axis.

Anybody that watches a slow-motion video should be able to see that there is no way the dice are on axis once they hit the tables.

Without knowing the math of the game and how to bet when you are playing you don’t stand a chance when playing craps, now of course there will be times that you get lucky and you do win that goes without saying! If that didn’t happen there would be no craps games in casinos!

Casinos should welcome anybody that sets the dice, and it should be mandatory that dealers and suits watch slow-motion videos of what really happens to the dice when they hit the tables! Then maybe we could get back to how it used to be before the corporate pencil pushers took over the casinos. These guys have read everything they could on the DI’s and came to the conclusion that all the fiction they were reading was the truth, and did everything in their powers to put a stop to the threat that they thought was true.

I still say that anybody that plays craps are way better off if they take one of the classes that the schools put on around the country if they also teach good betting habits, and don’t teach anything like the $204 across type of betting! If you are going to win at craps you can’t live in La, La land and believe all the fiction that is on many of the craps boards.

...

I hear you. Probably right. All of us are just trying to win at this game or at least come out ahead. So, even if you make a mistake and roll the dice and they happen to "knuckle" and land with no or minimal explosion one time out of 5 or 10 or one time out of 50 isn't that a little edge? Listen, the last 2 1/2 years my play is the dark side with odds that's it. (And way up) Looking to reduce the house edge anyway I can. Agree? If you look my orig question when I started this thread was ... Can this be done?

you cannot beat a negative expectation game with betting habits so why take a class??

Quote: mds

If you look my orig question when I started this thread was ... Can this be done?

You are asking the wrong crowd, on the wrong board.