move the dice

Quote: Ahigh

Some of these folks who think they are doing AP on craps are betting one-roll bets!!! Betting a one-roll bet thinking you're doing AP play, even if you WERE doing AP play, learn a little bit about betting and setting to make more money, please? It makes everyone who believes AP might be possible look stupid when people say things that equate to "ignore the math."

As opposed to AP bets like the hardways, eh?

Quote: dicesitter

if you are tipping them they mean it, particularly if you have a fire bet
working for them.

I wonder why Wheeling Island has the policy they have, the Dealer said you can't designate a Fire Bet for the crew, but if you make it and get paid, you can do whatever you want with the money...but it has to be a hand-in or bet on something else.

correct



here if we want to tip the deals on the firebet we have to say
4 for me and one for the crew, they pay you and you have to
pay them back.

dicesetter

Ahigh


I just want to prove that it can be done is all.


Take a class or two, there are lots of people that can help you
get the basics of a good throw.

When you learn to throw, imagine what you could do showing
people how that works with your set up.

Here is set 4242 and here are the results, here is the 3 v and the
results.

You have it all at your fingertips, swallow your ego and get the help
that will take you to the next level.

dicesetter

Quote: Mission146

I wonder why Wheeling Island has the policy they have, the Dealer said you can't designate a Fire Bet for the crew, but if you make it and get paid, you can do whatever you want with the money...but it has to be a hand-in or bet on something else.

Could it be they don't want to deal with a W2G for the crew? How would they fill that out?

Quote: RaleighCraps

Could it be they don't want to deal with a W2G for the crew? How would they fill that out?

I don't think they would have to, I believe the tips are pooled, and even if they are not, it'd still be a three-way chop. My inclination would be to say, on a $1 bet, none of them make enough off of it sufficient to generate a W2G.

Additionally, lacking a W2G, they'd pay income tax on it, so you can't have double-taxation, in that regard.

That could be the reason, though, seems as likely as any.

Quote: SanchoPanza

As opposed to AP bets like the hardways, eh?

Yeah, 2.78% edge per roll is a stretch to overcome as well. But at least it's a single target, and if you have a shot that hits a specific target more often, it's at least conceivable that you could AP that. I could see AP play on a 2.78% edge per roll field bet too as being conceivable, and even possible.

Yet when I see guys who use terms like "so-called DI's" and qualifying short term versus long term as a rationalization for betting high edge bets like crap checks, it's just embarrassing to realize that I am grouped in the same bucket with guys who suggest the path to winning at dice is to stop looking at the long term and stop worrying about the math.

My software goes through all 576 sets and can tell you if there is a set that, if coupled with your roll, can overcome the edge. And there are sets (for my roll the boxcar set) that would have been able to stay in the profit on the field and on the hardway all day. I expect that given enough rolls, even with my best throw, after 10,000 rolls anything that had an advantage will be gone.

But I know for a fact, there is ALWAYS a set that will produce profits when you look at max odds even at 345x after pretty much any number of rolls up to 100,000 rolls or so. Even on random data.

I'm not sure others realize these facts that max odds is exposure for the casino where field bets, hardway bets (EG: all the hardways especially) and prop bets are not.

The casino definitely knows not to worry about grinds on the 2.78% edge per roll and up bets.

But to qualify my beliefs: I am not sure that you can't AP a flat bet on a particular hardway myself. I am sure it's a lot tougher than making smarter bets though.

The last hardway bet I won that was over $1 was a $5 hard eight. It wasn't a press, it started at $5. And I had $300 odds on the eight. That was yesterday from a session at the Orleans. But just in case you're wondering how my bets are composed from research on my roll data, that's not a bet I am worried about in that context.

I rolled the hard eight from my 4242 set on the first roll after setting the eight as the point. I had no other bets besides that bet with an edge per roll over 0.5%. So I do make an exception for a small ratio to hit the hardway. But to be honest with you, it's more to show off than to get the extra $45 in pay (as in that instance).

I'm sure people here can agree that I like to show off.

The "ayes" have it... ;-)

Quote: ahigh

Yeah, 2.78% edge per roll is a stretch to overcome as well. But at least it's a single target, and if you have a shot that hits a specific target more often, it's at least conceivable that you could AP that. I could see AP play on a 2.78% edge per roll field bet too as being conceivable, and even possible.

Yet when I see guys who use terms like "so-called DI's" and qualifying short term versus long term as a rationalization for betting high edge bets like crap checks, it's just embarrassing to realize that I am grouped in the same bucket with guys who suggest the path to winning at dice is to stop looking at the long term and stop worrying about the math.

Talking about being embarrassed, for a guy that is so smart, that paper hanging on your wall, doesn’t give you any common sense. If it did you would never have to write about you losing in the casinos and having to run to the ATM’s

Quote: ahigh

I rolled the hard eight from my 4242 set on the first roll after setting the eight as the point. I had no other bets besides that bet with an edge per roll over 0.5%. So I do make an exception for a small ratio to hit the hardway. But to be honest with you, it's more to show off than to get the extra $45 in pay (as in that instance).
I'm sure people here can agree that I like to show off.

ahigh from a personal point of view, you are only about showing off, and bringing attention to yourself, it’s not about playing the game, it’s all about you showing off, and you don’t care if you win or lose, as long as you can be the star performer!
I think that you will get a lot of enjoyment out of my post, you can even say that I’m picking on you!!!!


…

Quote: superrick

If it did you would never have to write about you losing in the casinos and having to run to the ATM’s

LOL. No I don't leave out the bad parts like you do, Rick. But it's true I've never read about a single mistake you've ever made at the casino.

What does that say about your trustworthiness?

I tell it like it is, not how I would like for it to be.

Being honest with yourself is the hardest part. If you master that, being honest with everyone else is very simple.

You are probably a lifetime loser yourself, you just can't admit that you have wasted your time because without a profit to show, you don't have much to show for all you've invested into your craps game since you don't play to have fun like I do.

I was impressed you didn't bet any crap checks the last time I saw you shoot. But your shots looked shaky at best.

I do think you're a funny guy, and I do like you. But you should write about your losses if you have any. That would boost your credibility quite a bit.

Anybody can write about the wins without the losses. When I won $500 at Boulder Station last Friday, I got paid $950 for a single roll. But I don't talk about a $950 win for that session from $200 on the pass with $500 odds on a five point. I only made $500 by the time I left.

Simple omission of losses makes you look like a champ. That's what I see from you: it's more about what I don't see. I never heard a bad story about your failing ever.

wonderful



I never thought that was worth reading.


2 years ago i was in vegas and i played at h's i did not like the table much and i
only got the dice 2 times and the first was a 7 out and i lost 1 $10 pass line bet with
double odds and a $12 6 & 8

the second time i got the dice i broke even.

Then the next night i played at the PLaza, that was not much better i think i had 5 hands
and i may have made $25 all night.

the last day of the trip i played at the 4 Queens, first roll i lost $49 and i just could not
control the gambler in me so the second time i had the dice i had $75 on the line and odds and
and i went $60 on the 6 & 8 and $50 on the 9, it was terrible, i hit the back wall on the fly
and the result was 6/1... broke again.

MY next post will be even better as i talk about my poor sessions for this year.

Your right, it is more fun to concentrate on loses than it is wins.

dicesetter

I have a real good "loss story" for you.

About ten years ago I hit a $5 video poker progressive (Bonus) for $24,000+ at Caesars. At the time I was saving up for a diamond ring for my GF (current third wife) and I put aside $10,000 for the ring. She was there so I gave her $2,000, and I took $2,000 and went to play craps. I had the balance, about $20,000 on deposit with the cage -- and remember I was keeping $10,000 for the ring.

I hit the royal about 11pm on a Friday night. By 8-AM Saturday I had lost all but $11,000. The floor person, Kathy, was cutting me off. "No more, Alan, that money is for the ring. " But I got a little lucky, and won back about $2,000. I now had $13,000 -- which made me content. And I went up to my room.

But on the way to the Palace Tower, there was a different $5 video poker progressive (Jacks or Better) and I stopped to put $200 in the machine. Got a couple of two pairs, and then a straight and then a full house... and then I was dealt four to the flush with three to the royal. I held the royal cards and got the royal. $20,600.

That was one of the days of my life that made me realize that craps is primarily a game for losing. And it really hasn't changed over the last ten years.

LOL. One down anyway.

I will admit I hate admitting when I lose. HATE IT.

Oh well.

I did not want to lose either, but i was smart
enough to understand there are people that are pretty
good at this and for a small amount of money they will
help you.

I have spent 6 years in college and over 600 college credits for my
job, i dont want to think about what that cost....but it would have
been a tad silly of me to think i should not pay for a class, i will
just learn this on my own.

The few dollars I spent getting some help for me on throwing dice
has produced over 40 rolls of over 40 or better since to took my first
class, 3 years ago.
This does not mean i am a lifetime winner, that will never happen,
and many times even with help a person is still terrible, but i have had enough
really fun evenings to appreciate the help i was given.

When you get help from people like Frank, or Dom or Rick or Bman, or
stickman, or No field five or Nick and others it is not only very helpful,
but it is fun and you feel closer to the game of craps.

Ahigh why dont you join all of us, instead of fighting everyone.

Dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

I did not want to lose either, but i was smart
enough to understand there are people that are pretty
good at this and for a small amount of money they will
help you.

I have spent 6 years in college and over 600 college credits for my
job, i dont want to think about what that cost....but it would have
been a tad silly of me to think i should not pay for a class, i will
just learn this on my own.

The few dollars I spent getting some help for me on throwing dice
has produced over 40 rolls of over 40 or better since to took my first
class, 3 years ago.
This does not mean i am a lifetime winner, that will never happen,
and many times even with help a person is still terrible, but i have had enough
really fun evenings to appreciate the help i was given.

When you get help from people like Frank, or Dom or Rick or Bman, or
stickman, or No field five or Nick and others it is not only very helpful,
but it is fun and you feel closer to the game of craps.

Ahigh why dont you join all of us, instead of fighting everyone.

Dicesetter

Oh give me a break. I honestly think these guys would be all over my offer to showcase them on my show if it didn't have the potential to expose the truth that they don't want everyone to know: they aren't going to get those p-values you had on your 183 rolls when they go on a live broadcast with my software and have everything captured.

Their dice are going go travel through the air less perfectly than they would hope for and they will make excuses for how bouncy the table is and they will have to realize that much of what they are selling is hopes and dreams.

The truth is already out there for those who wish to see it: the effort is not worth the return just on your time alone. Add in the costs of a class, and I could shoot for a whole year and lose less money with a random shot.

Where are the winners with hundreds of thousands of dollars per year who get turned away from the big casinos that have bet limits appropriate for that level of income from dice? Collecting a couple hundred bucks from a chump in a class? Yeah, that sounds like a productive use of one's time who could be at the craps table making that much in a toss.

I challenge any one of these instructors just to reach out and say "hello" to me, but they won't do it. They don't want to know the truth of what happens when you show the world in a live broadcast what their "controlled shooting" looks like.

The first thing I would like to do is apologize for jumping in on this thread while not really being up to speed on the subject.

My first question is: what is a P-Value? Does it relate closely to RSR?

My second question is: It seems that the P-Value for the results he posted is kind of a big deal, but what is it that is so unlikely about anything having to do with 183 rolls as not to be believed? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not qualified to say that as I am not even sure what a P-Value is, I'm just wondering what could happen in only 183 rolls that would be so unbelievable.

Finally, assuming the P-Value for 183 rolls is some sort of long-shot, even for a highly-skilled shooter, why should anyone expect to duplicate those results on your show on a one-time opportunity? In comparison, if I said I rolled 5 Yo's and a Seven all CO winners consecutively, then the claim that such is highly unlikely is easy to make, and I would be extremely unlikely to duplicate it...especially only given one chance to do so.

Again, apologies for not being up to speed on what a P-Value is, but I'm curious as to what could make DiceSitter's claims, based on only 183 rolls, allegedly so outlandish.

I had to learn about p-values from folks on this forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-value

Basically, my software records rolls from shooters and looks at many slices of expected distributions. When a shooter achieves a non-random shot, the p-values will tell you what are the chances that this unexpected result could just be random.

When the p-values suggest that this happens with random data frequently enough, it is easy to dismiss as not being noteworthy.

DiceSitter submitted roll data to me that was not random. At all. It was extremely non random. More non-random than I have ever seen.

That's what my software does: it says, "here's the chance that you are shooting randomly."

The p-value, for a given distribution, says, from the computer, "here's the chance you are just experiencing randomness versus having some kind of non-random shot."

Here's some output from my software showing p-values for 3,500 or so of my rolls:

Rolls to Seven ratio (RSR): 6.377 +6.29%
Passline/CO player edge (per initial roll): -2.73%
Don't Pass/CO player edge (per initial roll): +0.17%
# #/7% delta% #/roll%
2 -1.06% -0.3065% less
3 +3.29% +0.4462% more
4 +1.45% -0.0368% less
5 +1.77% +0.0098% more
6 +1.64% -0.1201% less
7 +0.00% -0.9856% less
8 +3.98% +0.8802% more
9 +2.24% +0.1863% more
10 +2.67% +0.3457% more
11 +0.54% -0.2010% less
12 -0.40% -0.2182% less
Updating graphics
comeout: passline:5
Total rolls: 3399
1) 1133 16.67% - 16.67 = (+0.00)-------------------------------------------------- 1
2) 1131 16.64% - 16.67 = (-0.03)-------------------------------------------------- 2
3) 1112 16.36% - 16.67 = (-0.31)-------------------------------------------------- 3
4) 1158 17.03% - 16.67 = (+0.37)---------------------------------------------------- 4
5) 1142 16.80% - 16.67 = (+0.13)--------------------------------------------------- 5
6) 1122 16.50% - 16.67 = (-0.16)-------------------------------------------------- 6
X**2: 1.12 p: 0.95208
fw 1133,1131,1112,1158,1142,1122 1133,1131,1112,1158,1142,1122

11: --------------------- 2 (84)
12: -------------------------- 3 (103)
21: -------------------------- 3 (101)
13: ----------------------- 4 (91)
22: ------------------------- 4 (99)
31: ----------------------- 4 (92)
14: ----------------------- 5 (91)
23: ------------------------ 5 (93)
32: ------------------------ 5 (95)
41: ------------------------- 5 (99)
15: ------------------------- 6 (97)
24: ----------------------- 6 (91)
33: ----------------------- 6 (91)
42: ----------------------- 6 (92)
51: ------------------------- 6 (97)
16: ------------------------ 7 (96)
25: --------------------- 7 (81)
34: ---------------------- 7 (85)
43: --------------------- 7 (84)
52: ----------------------- 7 (89)
61: ------------------------- 7 (98)
26: ------------------------ 8 (93)
35: ------------------------ 8 (95)
44: ------------------------------ 8 (120)
53: ------------------------- 8 (99)
62: ------------------------ 8 (95)
36: ------------------------- 9 (98)
45: ------------------------ 9 (93)
54: ------------------------ 9 (95)
63: ------------------------- 9 (98)
46: ------------------------ 10 (94)
55: --------------------------- 10 (107)
64: ------------------------ 10 (94)
56: ----------------------- 11 (92)
65: ----------------------- 11 (90)
66: ---------------------- 12 (87)
X**2: 18.10 p: 0.99187

2) 84 2.47% - 2.78% = -0.31% (-10.42)-------- 2
3) 204 6.00% - 5.56% = 0.45% (+15.17)------------------- 3
4) 282 8.30% - 8.33% = -0.04% (-1.25)------------------------- 4
5) 378 11.12% - 11.11% = 0.01% (+0.33)---------------------------------- 5
6) 468 13.77% - 13.89% = -0.12% (-4.08)------------------------------------------ 6
7) 533 15.68% - 16.67% = -0.99% (-33.50)------------------------------------------------ 7
8) 502 14.77% - 13.89% = 0.88% (+29.92)--------------------------------------------- 8
9) 384 11.30% - 11.11% = 0.19% (+6.33)---------------------------------- 9
10) 295 8.68% - 8.33% = 0.35% (+11.75)---------------------------10
11) 182 5.35% - 5.56% = -0.20% (-6.83)-----------------11
12) 87 2.56% - 2.78% = -0.22% (-7.42)--------12
X**2: 7.71 p: 0.65725

4:7 ratio is 52.908% - 50.000% = +2.908% (+5.82% diff)
5:7 ratio is 70.919% - 66.667% = +4.253% (+6.38% diff)
6:7 ratio is 87.805% - 83.333% = +4.472% (+5.37% diff)
8:7 ratio is 94.184% - 83.333% = +10.851% (+13.02% diff)
9:7 ratio is 72.045% - 66.667% = +5.378% (+8.07% diff)
10:7 ratio is 55.347% - 50.000% = +5.347% (+10.69% diff)
X**2: 4.46 p: 0.61404

Observed: 533.0 sevens - 2866.0 non sevens RSR 6.3771
Expected: 566.5 sevens - 2832.5 non sevens RSR 6.0000
X**2: 2.38 p: 0.12312

Seven outs 372 (69.79%) - Seven winners 161 (30.21%)
Pairs 588 17.30% - 16.67% = 0.63% (+21.50 rolls)
Hards 417 12.27% - 11.11% = 1.16% (+39.33 rolls)
HiLos 171 5.03% - 5.56% = -0.52% (-17.83 rolls)
H2 84/23 ( 2.47% - 2.78% = -10.42)
H4 99/22 ( 2.91% - 2.78% = +4.58)
H6 91/27 ( 2.68% - 2.78% = -3.42)
H8 120/26 ( 3.53% - 2.78% = +25.58)
H10 107/38 ( 3.15% - 2.78% = +12.58)
H12 87/23 ( 2.56% - 2.78% = -7.42)
EZ: 2811 (82.70% - 83.33% = -21.50)
X**2: 10.85 p: 0.09311

DiceSitter was getting p-values like 0.00001

I've never seen such numbers on actual roll data. If you get those numbers and have video to back it up, it's evidence you have an amazing shot. If you just type those numbers in after pulling them out of your butt, it's easy to get low p-values.

The whole goal of my rig is to get p-values like DiceSitters data with video to back up that you are not just making up your claims.

It's a humbling experience to have my rig tell you what you got. I think Avenger came on and rolled a bunch of shorties to get something that wasn't terrible.

Most folks who've performed so far have shown nothing, really, including me.

miSSION 146



I never made any claims of anything, the guy wanted some throws so i went down stairs
and did some with a new set i was trying out...... period.

I have no idea what a p value is and i dont care, i could not fudge these numbers
because i would have no idea how to do it.

Also i have indicated other sets i have thrown just examples of one thing or another, again
they dont mean anything except they are just a record of what was thrown at that time.
This guy called me a liar every time I post anything. He will need to explain that to me
soon.

I believe it is possible to influence the dice, i believe others can do it and i think i can, end of story.

That does not mean you can do it any time you want, it wont make you a lifetime winner.

But there is nothing wrong in trying.

dicesetter

diceSItter has a Very good point. If we can ALL do it SOMetimes, what is the worry with craZY math?

For whatever it is worth, I too believe you can influence the dice. This is the only casino game where you can actually hold the outcome in your hand. A professional basketball player can make 60% of his shots from the field, a pro golfer can make 90% of his 10-foot putts, a pro baseball player can bat .400 and so on… I believe a pro dice setter can actually alter the game to his favor. I emphasize PRO! It has to give you at least a little edge. Agree? I will take any edge I can.

Quote: Ahigh

Their dice are going go travel through the air less perfectly than they would hope for and they will make excuses for how bouncy the table is and they will have to realize that much of what they are selling is hopes and dreams.

So... they can't be good shooters but only you can?

Would you set up your gear and record the throws on their table?

Quote: dicesitter

I believe it is possible to influence the dice,

I agree -- it is possible.

Quote: dicesitter

That does not mean you can do it any time you want

If you can't do it everytime (to a certain degree) then you are not influencing the dice. A major league pitcher who claims to be a curve ball pitcher must be able to throw a curve a high percentage of the time.

Quote: dicesitter

But there is nothing wrong in trying.

Agreed. We try.

Quote: mds

For whatever it is worth, I too believe you can influence the dice. This is the only casino game where you can actually hold the outcome in your hand. A professional basketball player can make 60% of his shots from the field, a pro golfer can make 90% of his 10-foot putts, a pro baseball player can bat .400 and so on… I believe a pro dice setter can actually alter the game to his favor. I emphasize PRO! It has to give you at least a little edge. Agree? I will take any edge I can.

I agree. but someone doesnt have to be a professional player to be able to influence the dice. My friend the surgeon certainly is not a professional dice shooter.

Quote: Ahigh

LOL. One down anyway.

I will admit I hate admitting when I lose. HATE IT.

Oh well.

I'm down lifetime, yearly, and monthly but I'm up about 200 bucks for the last couple weeks, there is still time for another game. Whoops, I didn't state that right. I'm down the last two weeks in craps but I needed to sit down and put a twenty in a vp machine and it hit for 500, that's the only reason I'm ahead for that time period.

Just guessing lifetime maybe down 10-12 grand?[in craps] Life time losses at all gambles including stocks, metals is well into 6 or low 7 digits. I've really only been playing craps frequently the last 7 years.

The last 3 years fully one half of my losses have been tips, I'm working on that. Compulsive tipper, unintelligent ap move for sure. I don't wager amounts that would be life changing. I play red chip because it's my comfort zone. I played some green chip and it messed with my psyche.

I don't mind losing so much as I hate the ass kicking I give myself for missing plays or not leaving when I'm ahead.

alan





Does the major league pitcher lose his contract after a day he could not
find the plate with his curve ball, or on a day where his 97 mph fastball was only
93 . certainly not, no one is the same everyday.

Look at very good bowlers, they struggle on an alley with a different oil set up, so they
go to their bag and get a different ball, you and i only have one pair of hands.

This dice throwing is the same, you cant expect exact results everytime you hit the
table, or different tables.

Ahigh expects DI's to set up and bark for him, and by the way bark over here on my
table.

thats silly


dicesetter

Quote: Ahigh

diceSItter has a Very good point. If we can ALL do it SOMetimes, what is the worry with craZY math?

This may be part of your problem in getting participants on your show that your not understanding?

Your antagonizing responses to anyone who refuses to be a sycophant for you?

Maybe worth considering, eh?

This is the part where I think a lot of what you put out isn't about craps so much as it is about Ahigh.

For you to put up that response and mess around with the Cap letters took effort on your part to denigrate the poster.

For dicesitter it's easy, all he had to do was debilitate a finger.

Quote: dicesitter

Does the major league picture lose his contract after a day he could not
find the plate with his curve ball, or on a day where his 97 mph fastball was only
93 . certainly not, no one is the same everyday

Agreed. So let's set a standard, then.

How do you define a "dice influencer"? What is the test or standard of influencing?

If you tell me its a SRR you will also have to tell me the percentage of times the shooter will have that SRR because anybody on occassion can have a great SRR.

If you tell me its the number of hardways hit, you will have to tell me is that one time or over a number of hands and a percentage of the time.

If you tell its the ability to keep dice on axis until they hit the back wall, you will have to tell me the percentage of times that happens.

I dont think anyone has defined "dice influencing" or "dice control." Everytime I manage to keep both dice on the table, I have controlled the dice to a certain degree. Everytime I managed to have the dice hit within a circcle with a six-inch radius I have influenced the dice to a certain degree.

Alan





I guess i have to ask you a question, the other night i played on a real bouncy table, my first 5-6 rolls
were short as i searched for the best location to throw the dice and the height. I decided on right
down the pass line and a little higher throw with hardway set . My next roll was about 10-11 and
my second was 23 with 6 points.Wife wanted to eat so i took a break.

Came back and had 3-4 rolls right away with 3/4 /4/3 7's so i rotated the dice 1 `/4 roll forward for
my set to get away from the 3/4 4/3 and had 4 - 20 or better hands in a row and a 17.

So i have to ask you, do you think i have some influence or is it just luck. I have no idea, all i can
say is when my roll looks ok i get good results and most often up here i throw better than
others.

I guess to be honest i dont know how you would prove it.

I would simply agree with you, if you throw the dice the same way, if they land the same place and a good
portion of your rolls stay close to where they hit....to me that is influence.

If your test rolls suggest you have to stay under the aligator board, or you have to shoot into the corner
or if you have to drop them higher, what ever it takes for your toss to react the best, if you can do that
it is influence......

now being a winner.... see that is much harder.

I have smart craps i posted those on the GTC site and stickman said there is no question they indicate
influence.

Maybe when i get there we can have a drink and make up a world changing test.

dicesetter

!!!!!

Quote: dicesitter

I would simply agree with you, if you throw the dice the same way, if they land the same place and a good
portion of your rolls stay close to where they hit....to me that is influence.

Regarding your rolls in your post: there is no way to tell if that was luck or if that was "influencing" or "control" or any skill was involved. A random shooter could have had similar results and random shooters have those kinds of results every day.

Which brings us back to what I have been saying all along: if there can be any measure or test of an influenced throw of dice it would be in the form of the throw:
--are the dice gripped and set the same way
--are the dice released the same way (45-degree angle or whatever)
--do the dice travel together
--are there soft bounces and rolls to and off the back wall

These can be the only tests of an influenced, controlled or skilled shot (excluding of course, a slide). And by the way, a stacked shot is covered by my definition.

Now, we have seen a lot of videos of dice that hit the back wall and bounce off the wall in different directions and different distances. We have seen videos of dice hitting the back wall in different locations. We have seen videos of dice not even traveling together. These cannot possibly be "controlled" shots UNLESS the shooter can repeat the same form over and over again.

And here is something you will agree on, dicesetter: the end result is not as important as the form. Because even with a perfect form, there is the chance that you will still seven-out or not hit the number or numbers you desire. But without at least the form you don't have a chance to get the numbers you want. This is why I said over and over again the end result does not justify what is called a controlled or influenced shot. And again, random shooters can get good results.

Quote: dicesitter

My next roll was about 10-11 and
my second was 23 with 6 points.Wife wanted to eat so i took a break.

You should try to roll a 6-point fire in 12 rolls! Go win some money and buy a camera. I just bought an HDR-PJ650V today off E-bay for $869. I spent a couple days deciding on that camera. If you're rolling 6 points in 23 rolls, that's amazing. Congratulations!!!!

Quote: Ahigh

LOL. No I don't leave out the bad parts like you do, Rick. But it's true I've never read about a single mistake you've ever made at the casino. What does that say about your trustworthiness?

You better go back and read anything I’ve ever wrote, I tell everybody that I can’t win every time I go into the casinos, and try to drive that point into everybody’s head!
Unlike you I don’t tell the world what I won or lost playing craps, it’s nobody’s business, that is very plain and simple. The one thing I do tell everybody is that you can’t win every time you go into a casino, and you better have money management if you plan to win at any casino game you play.

Quote: Ahigh

I do think you're a funny guy, and I do like you. But you should write about your losses if you have any. That would boost your credibility quite a bit.

Ahigh, if I wrote about what I take out of a casino, you would always be calling me a liar, so why would anyone want to tell you what we win when playing craps, I’m not the one that is trying to prove anything. The one thing that I do try to do is help anybody out that ask for my help, I don’t charge for it and the guys I have helped do appreciate it.
There are some of us that don’t play craps for the fun of it, I don’t need an audience to have what you call fun trying to show off, sorry I don’t need any of the things that you seek when you are on the craps tables. I don’t give anyone a hard time, I don’t talk down to the casino workers, I don’t try to prove that I know more than they do, and I damn sure wouldn’t talk to them in a condescending way. I don’t think that is funny to make them do more work than they have to do. If I don’t like what the casino is doing or the dealers or suits, I leave. I don’t go out of my way to turn the tables on them making their day as miserable as you can.

Quote: Ahigh

I was impressed you didn't bet any crap checks the last time I saw you shoot. But your shots looked shaky at best.

Ahigh, you talk a bunch of BS, you think that you can get away with anything you say. It’s very sad that you went from someone that some players thought had a good chance of doing something, for the guys that play craps all the time, to someone that nobody ever wants to see on a table. Let’s see the last time I saw you on a table, you had your head down holding it like it was going to fall off, when the dealer asked you what was the matter, you told him you had a bad headache and was down a cool $1000, and into your second $1000 buy-in. You didn’t even know that I had bought into the game, you were too busy betting on the three guys at table end that was random rollers. When one of them seven out, you passed the dice right back to them and didn’t shoot. Is that what you are doing called AP craps playing?

When I go the dice I had a short little roll, then waited to get the dice back, not betting on you the one time you shot, and had a PSO. When I picked up the dice you still didn’t know that I was on the table, I got on a small roll and got my money back and made the profit, which I needed to buy all the fishing tackle I needed. That’s when I tapped you on your shoulder, and told you, that is how you make a quick profit, and headed to the cage.

After my little shopping spree, at Bass Pro Shop, I stopped back by the table on my way out to the car, and showed you what I just bought. The shooter just hit a 6 for you, and you told the dealer to take you down, you were paid $14, and didn’t think about it. That was until I asked you how long the shooter was shooting, you turned and told me he had hit 3 or 4 points, as your luck would have it not one second after you got that out of your mouth, the dealer said those words we all hate to hear, line away take the don’t! That is when I realized that you just lost 4 come bets, plus you pass-line bet and you’re so called free odds. Now I didn’t get a good look at your odds, but it looked like you might have had $50 in those great so-called free odds. Not a bad way to go down in flames. In the time that I was there you lost $20 on your come bets that you couldn’t take down and your pass-line bet, and again those so-called free odd. I could see why you had your head in your hands.

Gee,.. isn’t it just great to know everything about the math of the game, I guess that you just didn’t know the shooter stupid P value when he 7 out. Oh I think I’m getting the hang of talking smack about how you were playing, how does it feel there big boy, do you still think it’s fun?

Ahigh, I don’t think that I earn a merit badge every time that I do lose, and I still say that I’m only getting lucky when I do win, if you throw baloney against the wall one piece is bound to stick after a while.
I have played craps with other members on this board, on two different occasions, when I was playing craps with RaleighCraps I showed him how silly that math of the game is when I got him to make one roll bets in the field to get him out of the hole he was in. At the time a random roller showed up on the table that I had seen shooting many times, that throws 5 or more field numbers in a row. We started a field bet progression on the shooter, and that is how he won his money back.

The next time he was in town, I showed him that something was wrong on the table and gave the dealer $30 for $1 chips so I could bet the 12 on every roll of the dice for those 30 rolls. In those 30 rolls I got paid 4 times. I proved my point about what was happening, and stopped betting the 12. Yes I know that the 12 is a bad bet, but when everybody is rolling them it can make you money!
I played with dicesitter when he was in town and showed him a few things that will help his shooting, the same thing goes for petroglyph. At the time when we went down to Laughlin, you had never met him, and I’m sorry to tell you this, but he was watching what happened on the first table that we played on when we first got they, where you ran to the table and started in on the dealers and boxman, when the rest of us was using the rest room. You must have thought you were funny when you did that and every other casino we went to, the rest of us just loved when you kept yelling out goodshooter.com!

The reason we drove 90 mile to play craps that day was because I saw what you did on other craps tables, when you didn’t know who I was. I didn’t want you doing anything that could affect any of the places where we play craps in Vegas!
What you do is not funny and some of it is downright disgusting, like what you was calling that one woman dealer in the Silverton Casino.

There ahigh, you pushed the wrong button, how’s it make you feel. Others have said it and I’m joining in, you’re like the little kid that is a bully in grade school. You think you’re so smart, but your just a paper hanger, that has a piece of paper hanging on the wall but no common sense whatsoever!

Please check my grammar and spelling, and see if you can find anything wrong with it!
Sorry, I don’t feel like proofreading it, but I’m sure it will make you feel like a big little man if you can find anything wrong with it!
Oh, I think any thought of any kind of friendship just ended, I'm so broken hearted, I think I'll cry all night!
...

Yikes.

Well thought out and intelligently stated.


ZCore13

Quote: superrick

You better go back and read anything I’ve ever wrote, I tell everybody that I can’t win every time I go into the casinos, and try to drive that point into everybody’s head!
Unlike you I don’t tell the world what I won or lost playing craps, it’s nobody’s business, that is very plain and simple. The one thing I do tell everybody is that you can’t win every time you go into a casino, and you better have money management if you plan to win at any casino game you play.

Ahigh, if I wrote about what I take out of a casino, you would always be calling me a liar, so why would anyone want to tell you what we win when playing craps, I’m not the one that is trying to prove anything. The one thing that I do try to do is help anybody out that ask for my help, I don’t charge for it and the guys I have helped do appreciate it.
There are some of us that don’t play craps for the fun of it, I don’t need an audience to have what you call fun trying to show off, sorry I don’t need any of the things that you seek when you are on the craps tables. I don’t give anyone a hard time, I don’t talk down to the casino workers, I don’t try to prove that I know more than they do, and I damn sure wouldn’t talk to them in a condescending way. I don’t think that is funny to make them do more work than they have to do. If I don’t like what the casino is doing or the dealers or suits, I leave. I don’t go out of my way to turn the tables on them making their day as miserable as you can.

Ahigh, you talk a bunch of BS, you think that you can get away with anything you say. It’s very sad that you went from someone that some players thought had a good chance of doing something, for the guys that play craps all the time, to someone that nobody ever wants to see on a table. Let’s see the last time I saw you on a table, you had your head down holding it like it was going to fall off, when the dealer asked you what was the matter, you told him you had a bad headache and was down a cool $1000, and into your second $1000 buy-in. You didn’t even know that I had bought into the game, you were too busy betting on the three guys at table end that was random rollers. When one of them seven out, you passed the dice right back to them and didn’t shoot. Is that what you are doing called AP craps playing?

When I go the dice I had a short little roll, then waited to get the dice back, not betting on you the one time you shot, and had a PSO. When I picked up the dice you still didn’t know that I was on the table, I got on a small roll and got my money back and made the profit, which I needed to buy all the fishing tackle I needed. That’s when I tapped you on your shoulder, and told you, that is how you make a quick profit, and headed to the cage.

After my little shopping spree, at Bass Pro Shop, I stopped back by the table on my way out to the car, and showed you what I just bought. The shooter just hit a 6 for you, and you told the dealer to take you down, you were paid $14, and didn’t think about it. That was until I asked you how long the shooter was shooting, you turned and told me he had hit 3 or 4 points, as your luck would have it not one second after you got that out of your mouth, the dealer said those words we all hate to hear, line away take the don’t! That is when I realized that you just lost 4 come bets, plus you pass-line bet and you’re so called free odds. Now I didn’t get a good look at your odds, but it looked like you might have had $50 in those great so-called free odds. Not a bad way to go down in flames. In the time that I was there you lost $20 on your come bets that you couldn’t take down and your pass-line bet, and again those so-called free odd. I could see why you had your head in your hands.

Gee,.. isn’t it just great to know everything about the math of the game, I guess that you just didn’t know the shooter stupid P value when he 7 out. Oh I think I’m getting the hang of talking smack about how you were playing, how does it feel there big boy, do you still think it’s fun?

Ahigh, I don’t think that I earn a merit badge every time that I do lose, and I still say that I’m only getting lucky when I do win, if you throw baloney against the wall one piece is bound to stick after a while.
I have played craps with other members on this board, on two different occasions, when I was playing craps with RaleighCraps I showed him how silly that math of the game is when I got him to make one roll bets in the field to get him out of the hole he was in. At the time a random roller showed up on the table that I had seen shooting many times, that throws 5 or more field numbers in a row. We started a field bet progression on the shooter, and that is how he won his money back.

The next time he was in town, I showed him that something was wrong on the table and gave the dealer $30 for $1 chips so I could bet the 12 on every roll of the dice for those 30 rolls. In those 30 rolls I got paid 4 times. I proved my point about what was happening, and stopped betting the 12. Yes I know that the 12 is a bad bet, but when everybody is rolling them it can make you money!
I played with dicesitter when he was in town and showed him a few things that will help his shooting, the same thing goes for petroglyph. At the time when we went down to Laughlin, you had never met him, and I’m sorry to tell you this, but he was watching what happened on the first table that we played on when we first got they, where you ran to the table and started in on the dealers and boxman, when the rest of us was using the rest room. You must have thought you were funny when you did that and every other casino we went to, the rest of us just loved when you kept yelling out goodshooter.com!

The reason we drove 90 mile to play craps that day was because I saw what you did on other craps tables, when you didn’t know who I was. I didn’t want you doing anything that could affect any of the places where we play craps in Vegas!
What you do is not funny and some of it is downright disgusting, like what you was calling that one woman dealer in the Silverton Casino.

There ahigh, you pushed the wrong button, how’s it make you feel. Others have said it and I’m joining in, you’re like the little kid that is a bully in grade school. You think you’re so smart, but your just a paper hanger, that has a piece of paper hanging on the wall but no common sense whatsoever!

Please check my grammar and spelling, and see if you can find anything wrong with it!
Sorry, I don’t feel like proofreading it, but I’m sure it will make you feel like a big little man if you can find anything wrong with it!
Oh, I think any thought of any kind of friendship just ended, I'm so broken hearted, I think I'll cry all night!
...

You got a lot of things wrong. It's educational.

First thing: I knew you were there from the moment you got there. I ignored you because I didn't want to talk to you.
Second thing: I didn't lose odds and I took EVERYTHING down when you arrived not because of the game but because of your being inconsiderate in your approach
Third thing: The only reason you ever thought we were friends was because you felt you were kind-hearted enough to allow me to be in your presence. You've looked down on me since day one, and you continue to do that to this day.
Fourth thing: All the stuff that you wrote up there is very educational about the difference between your perceptions and reality
Fifth thing: there was another guy there who knew who you were who also reads these message boards. He asked me, "was that Super Rick? is he stalking you?"
Sixth thing: I made no secrets that I lost that day. Don't pretend that you're broadcasting any news.

You live in your own little world obsessing about other people and what they say about the game. #1 on your list is the Mad Professor. I'm sure I'll now be on your list, and frankly I couldn't care any less.

Carry on!

Why don't you come on the show and perform your actual best legal shot and let's see how good you really are instead regurgitating your fantasy land online here.

I won't record a single short roll though.

I will tell you why: you don't have a decent legal shot. You have excuses.

Quote: Zcore13

Well thought out and intelligently stated.

All he said was, "Yikes." But you're right for a change, at least.

Quote: Ahigh

All he said was, "Yikes." But you're right for a change, at least.

I am sure Zcore13 when he said "well thought out and intelligently stated" was not referring to my "yikes."

But "yikes" is the only way I could respond to the post and to the comments made.

Curiously, in your rebuttal you wrote this, which seems like your usual defense:

Quote: Ahigh

I ignored you because I didn't want to talk to you.

That's not a defense. I'm not even trying to defend myself. I could not care less about anything truthful that Rick has to say about what happened that day.

But Rick remembers things differently from how they happened.

The real problem is that Rick was performing his super secret magic shot that day. Some shot that is so secret that .. I don't even understand. He makes it seem like if anybody learns about that shot, it's going to cost somebody their left testicle.

I think it's ridiculous to think that shot is worth even a dime. It looked like dog crap to me.

Just fantasy land stuff that I will never understand, nor do I really care to try.

But it serves as a good excuse that the shot is secret because that's the shot that supposedly works to make him money. But it can't be revealed because .. well .. oh .. yeah .. SECRET.

He's got nothing. Reveal more of what you observed there, and I'll more of what I observed, Rick. I have nothing to hide, how about you?

In other news, me and Teddy played finger snapper style at Sam's Town. Teddy won a $6 two-way four hoppin'.

Our dealer was Tanaya. She also works at Tuscany and just started dealing in Vegas a couple weeks ago.

We were doing the "come on dice" <grunt> finger snap. Alright, maybe it was only me.

FWIW, the term "finger snapper" was first given to me by Super Rick!!!

Thanks RICK!!!

Tanaya, Teddy, and I all had GREAT fun playing finger snapper style.

UHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Out of the blue, Teddy asks for the two way four on the hop.

After getting paid he asks, "what did the dealers get."

He didn't realize that a two-way bet could be both ways for him. LOL.

I told him, "just throw them a few bucks!!!"

Quote: Ahigh

The real problem is that Rick was performing his super secret magic shot that day. Some shot that is so secret that .. I don't even understand.

I think it's ridiculous to think that shot is worth even a dime. It looked like dog crap to me.

Just fantasy land stuff that I will never understand, nor do I really care to try.

Well, once again we can't expect "Ahigh the Researcher" to come through. Here's a perfect thing for Ahigh to research but because he doesnt like how it looks he dismisses it.

Ahigh, might you reconsider? How about a video analysis of the shot?

By the way, where is that video of your shot? Not the one that ended with ace-deuce and one die bouncing back half-way down the table. I mean a "real shot."

Quote: AlanMendelson

By the way, where is that video of your shot? Not the one that ended with ace-deuce and one die bouncing back half-way down the table. I mean a "real shot."

The bar for a quality shot with evidence of the shot actually being performed is so low, in fact, that this shot might just be the best one captured on video for all I know.

All these guys have crappy shots. Are you kidding me? The dominator, go and look at the you tube videos where he's showing people how to shoot in the golden touch instructional videos. His dice don't rotate together!

As far as demonstrating my shot, I'm not doing that yet. I am still setting up equipment.

I did this same sort of stuff with motorcycles. I was doing very clean stunts and there wasn't a video of me doing stunts out there. But the people on the street knew I could do them because they saw me doing them.

About two hours ago, Teddy saw me roll hard six back-to-back three times in a row on the first three rolls after betting $105 on a no-seven bet at Sam's Town.

There's no video for that either. Onlookers' jaws dropped. This was just a few hours ago.

I will have video. I'm just not spending my time on that now. I just bought the HDR-PJ650V today. It will be here soon. I got some more gear too.

When everything is set up, I'll record.

I'd much rather see somebody else step up to the plate though. Where ARE they?!?!

Quote: Ahigh

I'd much rather see somebody else step up to the plate though. Where ARE they?!?!

Ahigh I think you successfully scared them all away. No one wants to come to your video man-cave, risk not being "spot on" while on live TV and then being lambasted by the greatest shooter in the world.

Frankly, it's a "no win" situation for anyone to accept your challenge. No one stands to win anything and only stands to "lose." So could you really expect anyone with a school, or a book, or who sells classes to risk a one-time appearance on your show? Absolutely not.

Even if someone did accept your challenge they would probably want to meet and shoot on "their table" where they are more familiar with the bounce and even the basics such as the size and height. And even then why would they?

No unfortunately you have said so much in advance that you have ruined the chance for anyone to come forward and accept the risk of a challenge.

On the other hand, had you quietly kept the cover of being only a researcher and approached these people without such fanfare you might have had a chance to get the data and evidence you need. You will never get it now.

When investigative reporters are doing true investigations with hidden cameras, they don't knock on the door and say "Hi, I have a website and a camera and TV program and I am here to examine your business operating conditions." But that's pretty much what you did, isn't it?

From now on all you will be able to investigate is yourself. I am sure it will be captivating data.

Quote: AlanMendelson

From now on all you will be able to investigate is yourself. I am sure it will be captivating data.

Performing on someone else's table is exactly what you do at every casino you go to.

My table is a real casino table.

My dice are real casino dice.

I have the best equipment in the world to ensure the dice are fair.

They _should_ be afraid of what the computer has to say about their shot.

So many of these guys who think that they have shots don't even know enough about statistics to be sure what they got.

What they have is a hope and a prayer, and maybe some luck.

We are down to the wire, and if they are scared to come on the show, it's not because of me, it's because of the live camera that is not forgiving.

There is no room for error on a live show. Just like at the casino. What happens, well, it happens. No excuses! No do-overs.

Your suggestions for why they won't be on my show are just more excuses for them to latch onto. They've already found plenty. "I don't want anyone to see my shot" .. the only person besides me who "gave it their best shot" so to speak was Nicolay.

That's it.

Harley? He set the dice directly on the felt. It was insulting for me to set all that up for him to put on his little circus side show.

The "Avenger" as if anybody doesn't know who that was? He was unable or unwilling to show his "good" shot so he showed a bunch of shorties.

I'll say this, I have been nice to this Avenger, but if there was anything to that session, I'm not sure there would be if the shorties were called out as no rolls. Anybody want to watch that show and come up with the roll data that wasn't short?

Those rolls were not legit at all, nor were they the shots this person uses in the casino. Not much better than Harley just setting the dice on the felt saying that's what happened at the Wynn.

It is insulting to all the time and effort I have spent to create this platform for these guys to come and do their comedy routines on my show.

We haven't had a serious shooter YET! Not besides myself. At least I am doing my very best to deliver what I hope will be a controlled shot!

And if we never do, it's because all of controlled shooting is bull, including my own!

If it's not total bull, then we will EVENTUALLY see some evidence. Maybe it will take five years, but we WILL eventually see some evidence.

Until then, it's open season to comically mock those who don't have a shot yet continue to believe that they do. And I'm in that group of folks too.

It might be worthwhile to consider that what I am doing didn't just start recently. I've been building this all up over a span of multiple years already.

Quote: Ahigh

it's open season to comically mock those who don't have a shot yet continue to believe that they do. And I'm in that group of folks too. It might be worthwhile to consider that what I am doing didn't just start recently. I've been building this all up over a span of multiple years already.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

----Albert Einstein

Quote: Albert Einstein

In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.

I can quote using tags.

It might not be obvious to everyone, but even though I spend a lot of time throwing dice, I'm not trying to generate a second income doing it.

The quest is in the proof that control can be achieved.

Sorting through those who don't matter is half the battle.

I have limited time. Many comments made along the way that I read are simply superfluous.

And I would hardly call what I have done to create my setup for allowing a computer to analyze dice throws to be "doing the same thing."

If it is, please explain.

The way I see it, it's a journey. It's a quest. It's a long term goal. I only really decided I wanted to do this craps thing when I began to de-focus on money, really. In a world where money is just something that's there, what do I want to do? I want to know about advantage play craps: if it's possible. I honestly thought it would go more quickly.

Instead, it's turning into something like Donald Knuth's TeX. It took him about 11 extra years to do what he hoped to finish in 1978.

It has literally only been a few weeks that I have decided that pretty much everyone that I've met that thinks that they can do it, generally can't.

I had hope for Harley, Super Rick, and Vegas Dice Controller. They may be doing it, but they're pulling away now into their secret world. I don't expect they will help any further. And even if they wanted to, I don't see enough promise in their delivery techniques to consider them anything but lucky.

Luck works, though. So good for them if it's working!

If I have to be the one to demonstrate my own shot, it might take me another three years to refine a throw with the help of my software.

The motor memory is not something that you can develop quickly. It takes lots of repetition.

Quote: Ahigh

The quest is in the proof that control can be achieved.

Sorting through those who don't matter is half the battle.

I think those are two very good points, so here is a suggestion: go and prove that control can be achieved. Do it all by yourself if you can. And then come back and show your proof. Doing battle here does you no good and wastes your time.

Good luck with it.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Do it all by yourself if you can. And then come back and show your proof. Doing battle here does you no good and wastes your time.

Here's a suggestion for you then: you are getting a little too wrapped up with me. Stop giving me personal advice. If I am, in fact, wasting my time, I can waste my time any way I see fit.

For someone who has played this game as long as you have played it, and who does real reports to the real media about the game, you're not the expert on this game that I would hope given your experience.

Want another suggestion? I didn't think so, but here it is anyway: learn more about the game so you can do a better job reporting about it.

Alan




Respectfully, i dont agree on the last paragragh. The only thing that counts is the result.

If finishing on axis is done about 44% and if you do all the things you suggest as well as
you can and your on axis result is 53%, there is something causing that, it is not just
continued luck. Dice do not have to travel together in a perfect union for their
to be an influenced result.

I dont care if a guy throws the dice out his ear, if he gets "continued" results which
are statistically better than random, he has some influence, or maybe just a good ear.

There are two items which i feel are very true, we have the tools to show we can influence
the dice, second the casino's should love dice control, it is the best thing that ever happened
to them.

Smart craps or other systems work well if you are honest in the data you enter.

Influencing dice is very very hard and 95% of the people that try it will lose more money at
a casino thinking they can, than the ones that can will win back.

I cant count the times i have
stepped up to an empty table and the crew says it has been terrible. Well most smart players
keep going, i am dumb enough to think i can play anyway. Sometimes i win and many times
i should have listened. But the point is pretty soon there are other players at the table and
that is good for the casino.

If owned a casino, there would be a large sign saying dice setters welcome.

Dice setting is the best of all worlds, it is great for those that can, it is good for the casino,
and it is great fun to try.

dicesetter

Alan



That could not have been said better, ahigh has stuck his foot in
his mouth and does not have the ability to pull it out.

No one will touch his show with a 10 foot pole.

what a waste.

dicesetter