What should you do when being cheated by the Casino!
Poll
 | 7 votes (21.21%) | ||
| | 12 votes (36.36%) | ||
| | 1 vote (3.03%) | ||
| | 20 votes (60.6%) |
33 members have voted
Quote: ParlayWhat should you do when you are being cheated by the casino? I was at the Sands in Pennsylvania and I was playing craps. I made a horn bet. The pit boss says no bet and it wasn't set up. When a place number hit, I ask for my money back and he said he booked my bet. Of course I started arguing but caught myself. I let it go & continued to gamble. Then i had $5 on all the hardways. They switched dealers and i called off on my place numbers. The hard10's hit & i got paid. Then it hit again and my hardways was turned off. I asked them who turned it off. They said I did when my place numbers were turned off. At that point I should have gotten the hint & left but I stayed. Now -$1500 later I'm wondering why didnt i leave? Has anyone experience this? What did you do ?
I was standing right across from "Parlay" when this happened and will vouch for everything he wrote. The cheating in Bethlehem Sands is really bad. Parlay threw in $10 for a Horn Bet and the Pit Boss yelled "Late Bet, No Bet"... a "10" hit and the Pitboss said he "booked the bet" and took down the horn bet. It was absolutely disgusting!
The Hardway bet/non bet was hysterical! The Dealer had just paid him (Parlay) on a hardway bet the roll before...now they claim his hardway bet was "off" when it hit again . They tried the same thing with me a few rolls later. I told the dealer "Place Bets off" "Hardways always work". Right before I threw the dice, I saw an "off" button on the hardways...I stopped my roll and asked "why were the hardways off?" the pit boss said "he was playing with the off button"!
Later that day. The guy who made $6,500 off a $300 original buy-in (I posted about him on an earlier post today) made a Field Bet of $500, he put 20 $25 chips on the field BEFORE the dice was in the shooter's hand. I guess the casino was upset that the guy had the greatest timing ever on field bets...because the pit boss yelled "No bet" even though the dice was still not in the shooter's hands. The shooter hit a "9" which would have paid the field.
Not sure if this qualifies as "cheating" but I found it to be unethical because they were booking REAL late bets all day and seemed to invite them by not complaining. Not saying there is a correlation because most of the late bets that occurred preceded 7-outs but that's exactly what I am saying.
This is the problem with "stand alone casinos", they know you can't go next door to another casino so they can do a lot of unethical things.
Forums such as this do help.
Do note the time and day of the event, the crew members involved, - and write the casino that their employees were not only caught defrauding customers, but their cheating actions were the cause of bad press. Also cc the gaming commission for the jurisdiction involved of the incident.
Tolerance of dishonest play is a non-starter for a casino operator, whether crew or customer.
There should be a "Consumers' Report" type effort for this. This place comes close.
Quote: CrapsForeverBethlehem Sands 5/25
CASINO MISPLACING BETS INTENTIONALLY?
On my first comeout roll; I bet $5 Horn High Aces....threw a 2, got paid $56...I threw in an additional $5 and stated...."Press my Horn High Aces to $10", the next roll was a 3, the box paid me $12...they said "you never pressed your bet"...I became very upset because I clearly pressed my bet. They did not book the bet.
On my next attempt...I threw in $11 and said "Hop 7's for $2 each with a $5 Horn high Aces. The box called out "$5 Horn High Aces" with the stick man banking my $6; I stopped the game before throwing and said "Why are you banking my $6?" I clearly stated "Hop the 7's for $2 each and you looked right at me and said...okay"... they booked the bet.
Later that night during a roll, I threw in $11 and said "Hop the 5 & 9 with a $5 Horn High Aces"...the box booked the 5 & 9 for $1 each with a $5 Horn High Aces...Again the stick tried to bank $2 before the next throw, I got into a very HEATED argument with the Pit Boss about continued misplaced bets by the dealers especially the stick..I screamed "I just threw you $11, why do you keep banking chips???" The PIT BOSS argued with me that I was not throwing in the appropriate amount of $$$. I screamed back "it's your job to book bets and give back change", "you do the math..book my bets and give me back my change" They booked the bet.
Regarding both of the "hot shooters"; one (Shooter A) threw the dice randomly and was just a lucky SOB....on the first table when I was there....he did not make a single point but hit lots of hardways...A player (Non-shooter) had $25 on all hardways...the hard 8 was hit; he pressed his Hard 4, 6, 10 to $50 and $75 on the Hard 8, the box booked the bet correctly and verbally said "$50 on all hardways, $75 on the hard 8" Shooter A hit every single hardway (4,6,10)...when he hit the Hard 8, there was only $50 on the Hard 8 for the NON-Shooter; this was a LIE; it was clearly $75 that the guy pressed it up to....a few minutes earlier (the entire table confirmed it)...argument was started (justifiably)....game was paused...this was intentional by the box..the Pit Boss said "We'll pay you for a $50 Hard 8, then check surveillance for the remaining $25. Arguments on craps table almost always leads to a 7 on the very next roll. I called "off" on my bets...hopped the 7's right away for $3 each....next roll was a SEVEN! I was so mad about the box messing up the game...I left the table. An hour later; Shooter A goes on a 30 minute roll but there is no room for me to get back in. BIG freaking mistake; I had identified a lucky shooter but left the table because the box was cheating. I caused myself money by leaving the table!
Now on a different table, shooter B who is a "dice setter"....Mini V (2's) setter is hitting hardways like CRAZY...I made $300 on a total of an original $10 placed on hardways in minutes....he hit the Hard 6 three times in a few rolls; I pressed from $5 to $10 to $15...making more than $200 in a few rolls. When I pressed the Hard 6 to $15; somehow there was only $10 placed on it...the next time the Hard 6 was hit during the flow of the game...argument was started....this was intentional by the box...game was paused...I called "off" on my bets...hopped the 7's for $5 each, next roll: SEVEN!
Shooter A comes over to my table...I tell the player next to me...that guy is a very lucky shooter...."get ready to make money". I bet all the hardways $5 each..bet $18 on the 6 and 8...then hopped the 5's and 9's for $1 each and bet a $2 C&E. Shooter A hit SIX 9's in a ROW (I was getting back $10 per roll)after the 6th 9 in a row; I threw in $7 and clearly stated "Make my $2 C&E a $5 Horn and press my Hop 5's and 9's to $2 each. The next roll was a 9 (SEVEN 9's in a row), the box paid me $7 instead of $22, they never booked my additional hop bets...I honestly tried not to make a scene but I had just thrown in the money for the bet the roll before and this was getting ridiculous...now there were doing the BS yet again. I said very loudly "everybody, I would call off your bets if I were you, the BS is starting again", I took down my $18 (6&8) and hopped the 7's for $5 each...next roll (SEVEN)! UNBELIEVABLE! 3 good rolls by 2 players all ended the same way within a 45 minute period ..with the casino "misplacing" bets. I left the Casino down $100 but after being down $500 an hour earlier; I felt like a winner!
I highly advise you....once an argument starts on a craps table...."call off your bets"...this was the most horrible intentional display I have ever seen in my 12 years of playing craps at a casino. Everybody makes mistakes but 8 mistakes on 3 different craps tables in 2 hours reeks to me of a systematic move by a Casino to cheat players or intentionally destroy the "flow of a game"..
I wrote about my experience with (Misplaced Bets, Cheating) at Bethlehem Sands on Friday May 25. On Saturday May 26, a few other people had similar experiences involving blatant "cheating" by the same Casino. I ensured all of my bets were booked and placed accurately on the felt before every dice roll. I know a couple of dealers were upset that I was being so deliberate repeating my bets verbally multiple times but I wanted to make sure bets were placed accurately. Some dealers have a lot on their plate and tend to "forget" a bet especially when it hits if it's not placed appropriately on the felt. ALWAYS ensure your bet is booked accurately and placed in its right area and make sure you get a verbal acknolowdgement BEFORE the next roll.
Parlay,
Since Bethlehem Sands is your "home" casino; I highly suggest you follow Paigowdan's advice and report them every single time you are cheated! I would also suggest you find a new casino to play at.
Quote: PaigowdanOn the voting options, you left out "post the incident on an Internet forum."
Forums such as this do help.
Do note the time and day of the event, the crew members involved, - and write the casino that their employees were not only caught defrauding customers, but their cheating actions were the cause of bad press. Also cc the gaming commission for the jurisdiction involved of the incident.
Tolerance of dishonest play is a non-starter for a casino operator, whether crew or customer.
There should be a "Consumers' Report" type effort for this. This place comes close.
You are definately right a Consumer Report would definately help us. Next time something like this happens I will report it then stop playing at that table. Hopefully they will take notice if enough people complain!
Is there any chance that the "no bet" horn, was actually a "no bet" for a different player? One who threw his bet in after you threw in your horn?
Quote: DJTeddyBearI know I'm grasping at straws, and am in the minority for trying to defend the casino, but...
Is there any chance that the "no bet" horn, was actually a "no bet" for a different player? One who threw his bet in after you threw in your horn?
No chance because they would have set up my bet. No one else threw in money! I am attune to things like that. I made my bet while dice was in the middle and the dice was being taken to the shooter with the stick. I was mad enough that they said no bet and didn't set up my bet. I was then irate when they said they booked my bet! To add insult to injury the dealer standing next to me tried to talk with me after that saying if it would have hit I would want to get paid! I told her you don't have anything to say to me be quiet!
You've never seen a bet get booked without the chips being set up properly?Quote: ParlayNo chance because they would have set up my bet.
I see it all the time, particularly with late bets.
Wait a sec.Quote: ParlayI made my bet while dice was in the middle and the dice was being taken to the shooter with the stick.
Were the dice in the middle or not? You're contradicting yourself.
It seems like you made a late bet.
Of course, that doesn't forgive the casino from taking the chips after calling the bet off.
Quote: ParlayWhat should you do when you are being cheated by the casino? I was at the Sands in Pennsylvania and I was playing craps. I made a horn bet. The pit boss says no bet and it wasn't set up. When a place number hit, I ask for my money back and he said he booked my bet. Of course I started arguing but caught myself. I let it go & continued to gamble. Then i had $5 on all the hardways. They switched dealers and i called off on my place numbers. The hard10's hit & i got paid. Then it hit again and my hardways was turned off. I asked them who turned it off. They said I did when my place numbers were turned off. At that point I should have gotten the hint & left but I stayed. Now -$1500 later I'm wondering why didnt i leave? Has anyone experience this? What did you do ?
I think argue - and I may be talking out my arse because I don't know the law...but I would ask to review the tape. Demand that you all look at the tape. Say you are sure you were correct and you want to prove it.
I actually did this once, and said "I want to see the tape. Let's look at it. Go look, rewind, or whatever you do, but I am sure I...." They quickly just gave me my 5$ bet or whatever it was I was arguing. I was pissed they messed up and then denied it.
I think if you argue and say - "let's look. You have it recorded" - they may agree, or just give you back the contested money.
it seems to me they mess up all the time, but usually side with you when you are correct.
But on the flip side, if they mess up and overpay, or don't take my money, I will correct them in that case as well. I have done that a ton.
note the date and time and table number.
make sure the floor knows you are intending to file a formal complaint with the PA GCB.
PA is not putting up with any of the bullshit that vegas and AC do.
you will get your money, i can almost guarantee it.
Quote: WongBoPA is not putting up with any of the bullshit that vegas and AC do.
you will get your money, i can almost guarantee it.
Is there any case history to back up that statement?
as well as that of friends and acquaintances who have had disputes at various PA casinos.
and the growing evidence of the tight way the PA GCB
is handling violations of the Race Horse Development and Gaming Act.
Quote: WongBoi have only anecdotal evidence from my own experiences at Sands
Can you expand on this a bit?
as I was playing black chip baccarat, BJ and tiles,
and I am comped at LV Sands properties,
But they tried some of that same shit, getting cute with my prop bets.
I grabbed the dice and told the box and floor that if they wanted to get cute,
I would gladly file formal complaints and sue the casino.
He had the dealer pay me.
Quote: WongBomost definitely, take the names of the dealers and floor along with their id numbers.
note the date and time and table number.
make sure the floor knows you are intending to file a formal complaint with the PA GCB.
I totally agree with this. In fact, why not name names here, or everywhere for that matter. Don't let them get away with their chicanery. Make them live it down. Eventually they will lose their jobs that they seemingly can't do. Don't be PC about it. Bad businesses go out of business for a reason; and this casino sounds like a very bad business. Not sure how the BBB works out there, but I would not tolerate this complete BS!
Quote: teddysCraps players calling bets "on" or "off" can often get lost in the commotion of a hot roll or crowded table. Benevolent box persons will give players the benefit of the doubt but most won't. They will never contradict a dealer. Sometimes it is better to just go with the "default" whether it is "hardways off on the come out" or the opposite. Better yet, don't make any center bets.
I guess your vote is to keep playing but modify your bets
Quote: slackyhackyI think argue - and I may be talking out my arse because I don't know the law...but I would ask to review the tape. Demand that you all look at the tape. Say you are sure you were correct and you want to prove it.
I actually did this once, and said "I want to see the tape. Let's look at it. Go look, rewind, or whatever you do, but I am sure I...." They quickly just gave me my 5$ bet or whatever it was I was arguing. I was pissed they messed up and then denied it.
I think if you argue and say - "let's look. You have it recorded" - they may agree, or just give you back the contested money.
I will try this next time. Sometimes I think that the way they cheat is to provoke an argument so that the game can slow down and the shooter can get out of his rythem! I hate the B/S. funny thing thing is you lose all the way around. So if this ever happens to you or you see this on a table be sure to call your bets off until the next 2 rolls!
Quote: WongBoI grabbed the dice and told the box and floor that if they wanted to get cute, I would gladly file formal complaints and sue the casino. He had the dealer pay me.
To anybody thinking of doing this, this is the EXCEPTION, not the rule. In fact, you are more than likely going to be met by a not-so-nice security guard and asked to leave the premises immediately, IF you are not taken to a backroom and read your barring statement. Depending on how much of a jerk they want to be, they could also bar you from any properties in the family (in this case, Sands would also get you barred from Venetian/Palazzo).
The last thing you should ever do with any complaint for any company, casino or not, is threaten a lawsuit. A properly trained manager will automatically shut down any conversation and ask you to leave the building. My guess is this boss does/did not know this, and was coerced into making that decision... but again, that's the exception, not the rule.
The best way to get results is to file a formal complaint with the appropriate Gaming Board. Before doing that, ask to speak to the Table Games Manager before doing so, speak away from the floor (and ESPECIALLY the game/dealers in question) and calmly and rationally explain your side of the story. If the response is not to your liking, explain to him/her that you will be taking your business elsewhere and you will be filing a complaint BOTH with the parent company and the Gaming Board. THEN LEAVE THE FRICKIN' CASINO!!!
This is the part I don't get with all these stories of people feeling like they are being cheated by various casinos. In most cases, the person keeps going back, possibly because there are no other options, or possibly because they like to gamble. BUT IF YOU FEEL YOU ARE BEING CHEATED, DO NOT GO BACK TO THAT CASINO!!!!!!!!! Your actions speak louder than words, and gaming personnel know that. If they want your business, they will do what they have to do to get it back. If not, they'll soon find themselves without customers.
Funny how no one voted for keep playing but it seems that this is what most people do. I've left a particular table but rarely have I just left the casino.
after I suggested I would file complaints with gaming control,
so maybe he took it as a frustrated statement rather then a threat.
The truth is, I don't really care if they bar me,
as I don't really like that property, the only one not in vegas or macao,
and I only get to Vegas once every ten years.
I did say that my experience was not representational and
I definitely would normally just take names and let it be known that it wasn't over.
Of course, if the problem persisted I would go elsewhere, permanently,
And tell thousands of people about it.
Quote: ParlayFunny how no one voted for keep playing but it seems that this is what most people do. I've left a particular table but rarely have I just left the casino.
Exactly! You might leave the table, but you're still giving that casino your money. What do they care if you give it up on craps, BJ or slots; as long as they are the final destination for your sawbucks, they aren't going to do anything about your concern.
A long time ago, I was playing BJ at Harrah's Joliet (they used to have a great game for the Midwest: S17, RSA, DAS, no LS, and it was all over the floor). Anyways, the player in the last position had 12 against a dealer 5, signaled to take a hit and quickly indicated it was a mistake and wanted to stand. The dealer dealt the card anyways, which was a 10. He called the supervisor over who told the dealer to burn the card, the dealer had 5,3, drew a 3, a 5, and a 4 to make 20. I had an 18 on the hand, everybody else had less than 17.
If the dealer had used the 10 to make the hand, I would have pushed, while everybody else still loses. Since the player clearly indicated he didn't want the hit, but it was a dealer mistake by acting much too quickly (they were lightning fast at Harrah's Joliet), I felt the 10 should have been the dealer card. The supervisor refused to change the decision. I explained I would be coloring up and going over to Empress, despite being a Diamond Card Holder and despite the fact I was staying in the hotel. So I colored up, and was about to leave, but before I did, I decided to speak to the manager on duty. After an explanation, he agreed to give me back the $25 I lost, and I stayed. I ended up losing another $300 there.
Moral of the story: If you're going to be bold in your words, you better follow them up with your actions!
That's because we all voted to argue or complain. The implication is that after that, you'd continue playing.Quote: ParlayFunny how no one voted for keep playing but it seems that this is what most people do. I've left a particular table but rarely have I just left the casino.
The "continue playing" vote implies that you're not going to argue or complain.
Quote: rainmanI was going to vote but none of the options contained violence so I couldn't. ;)
Security... Security.... Security .. Just had a pit boss moment!
My two prerequisites for gambling:
1). prepared to be cheated
2). prepared to lose all the money brought into the casino
if 2) didn't happen, that's called "positive variance"
if 1) didn't happen, well, that's not possible
Quote: pokerfaceI voted keep playing because that's why I went to the casino in the first place.
My two prerequisites for gambling:
1). prepared to be cheated
2). prepared to lose all the money brought into the casino
if 2) didn't happen, that's called "positive variance"
if 1) didn't happen, well, that's not possible
Finally a Keep Playing vote! If you have another casino in the vacinity be sure to take your BUISNESS there. If not I can understand your Logic
Quote: ParlayFinally a Keep Playing vote! If you have another casino in the vacinity be sure to take your BUISNESS there. If not I can understand your Logic
For those of you interested, I have just opened up my own casino in my apartment. I have a great BJ game, where BJs pay 4:10, pushes are losses, and I decide exactly what amount your pip total is after seeing my hand. I promise that I'll pay out a nice jackpot if you get Ace-Jack of Spades but that could be voided if I decide it's an 11.
Here, you know I'm cheating you, but it's your only option, so obviously, come and play at my place. Let's face it: if a casino is OBVIOUSLY cheating you on craps, then they OBVIOUSLY must be cheating you on other games as well. Their slot payback probably isn't what they say it is, even though the government sets mandates. They OBVIOUSLY use faulty Blackjack shoes, even though you verified all the cards are in the deck. ALL THE DEALERS and PIT BOSSES are willing to lose their licenses and go to jail to cheat you as a customer, even though they don't get any money for doing so... but they probably do underneath the table.
So that's the place you want to go and play...
Look, I'm not saying that the OP's story doesn't call in to question the ability of the craps crew at Sands, but 1) He fully admitted to staying at the casino, despite the fact he was upset with two calls, and 2) No grievance was filed. I'm not trying to be harsh here, but CASINOS HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO CHEAT! CASINO EMPLOYEES HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO CHEAT This is an issue of poor customer service, plain and simple.
And when you're ready to be cheated, fair and square, come visit me in Ohio...
Quote: rainmantilt I'm coming over, I can't resist those favorable rules. Will you be serving free liquor? ;)
I can buy some of the watered down stuff they sell at the grocery stores. I won't be making a trip to the Liquor Agency for the real stuff until you hit Platinum level (which is 100 points, or $1,000,000 lost)
Quote: TiltpoulI can buy some of the watered down stuff they sell at the grocery stores. I won't be making a trip to the Liquor Agency for the real stuff until you hit Platinum level (which is 100 points, or $1,000,000 lost)
Can I interest you on my own (un)patented Rapid Lotto game?
Briefly:
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2) Customer picks 6 out of 100 numbers. Multiple combinations of up to 30 numbers are available.
3) Price per combination is $0.50
4) There is no prize drawing. Instead all customers get awarded a random prize of between 5% and 15% of their buy-in, no matter how large. The jackpot is awarded to every 11th customer who doesn't receive a 15% prize. Everybody always wins! (taxes are the strict responsibility of each winner).
5) TOP SECRET TIP! The odds of receiving the 15% prize increase proportionally to the buy-in amount (Don't tell anyone! It's an insider's tip! People have died for blabbing about it! It's what THEY don't want you to know!!)
6) All tickets sold are guaratneed winners!
What do you think? Betting one million to win one nano-billion seems fair, no? ;)
There's always an INCENTIVE TO CHEAT! It's that you don't know what the incentive is! I'll share it with you!! It is taking your money!
Quote: ParlayCASINOS HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO CHEAT! CASINO EMPLOYEES HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO CHEAT This is an issue of poor customer service, plain and simple....
There's always an INCENTIVE TO CHEAT! It's that you don't know what the incentive is! I'll share it with you!! It is taking your money!
Remember dem hippie days... the NYC Free Store where everything was free but they still had thieves break in at night and steal things that they could have walked out with the next day for free. It is the nature of a thief to steal.
Do unto others before they do unto you!
Quote: FleaStiff. It is the nature of a thief to steal.
Do unto others before they do unto you!
Does that mean all casinos cheat? Are we wasting time and money expecting a fair game at the casino?
Quote: ParlayDoes that mean all casinos cheat? Are we wasting time and money expecting a fair game at the casino?
Not sure but use every advantage you can to beat the casino "fairly"; Count Cards, Bet on "True" Dice Setters/Lucky Shooters, Form Gambling Teams*, etc.
Don't EVER play again at a Casino where you've been cheated or see another player cheated!
* - Forming Gambling Teams is a game changer in Blackjack and in Craps. If all of you on a Craps table know each other and work together; "Craps Etiquette", "Pass the Dice immediately back to the "Hot" Shooter", "Listen when the Shooter calls "off" on bets", "No Chips in Shooter's Landing Zone", "No Mid-Shoe Entries", "Scheduled Breaks", "Bet on each others unique numbers", etc.
Winning opportunities are endless!
If you're not cheating, then you're just a bunch of friends playing together.
Quote: ParlayYou can make 1000 on your roll and end up giving it back and then some by the time you get the dice again. I really wish people would start passing the dice the hot shooter!
Have you ever made $1,000 on your roll before?
have an okay roll and BET CORRECT! , recognize the opportunity when it's there!
