Unbalanced Dice and Baised Dice

Yes! HI. I'm Nick. A new user and no this article is not spam. So don't delete it like the last time i tried to post something. Anyway moving on.

I came across a video showing a multitude of dice from many different casinos as being unbalanced and baised to the six. Even though these are precision dice and their manufacturers claim these dice have a perfect weight balance on every side the guy in the video shows how the side of the six(6 pips) With the most white filament always come out heavier. This isn't supposed to happen. So do casino's actually know their dice are unbalanced? Will this ever be corrected?

Here's the video. its in two parts...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi7PMlAYJh8&list=UUul8VKpXtD8pFz2KOGiozcw&index=6&feature=plcp

Thanks,
Nick

The video is a desperate attempt at trying to find something which isn't there. To save other forum members 10 minutes of your life that you won't get back, here's a summary of the spins he made in a caliper:

1) at 3:58, he lets go of the die for the first time. When it stops, 4 is in the bottommost position.

2) at 4:34, he spins it, and it stops with 4, 5, and 6 in the air. He then fiddles with the caliper until it stops with 4/5/6 on the bottom.

3) at 4:53, he spins it again, and it stops with 6 on the bottom.

4) at 5:30, he spins it again, and it stops with 4/5/6 in the air. He then says that it's biased to the 1, which is the opposite of his claim that the sides with more pips appear on the bottom more often.

5) at 5:46 he fiddles with the caliper again until it stops with 6 on the bottom and says "it's not supposed to do that".

6) at 5:50 he spins it again, and it stops with 4/5/6 in the air: again, the opposite of what he's supposedly proving.

7) at 6:17 he spins another die, it lands with 6 on the bottom. Oh dear, that's never supposed to happen - better call the gaming board!

8) 6:55 he spins another one, it lands with 3 on the bottom. Again he says "it rocks back and forth, not good, it's biased". Is this guy on drugs? A die most certainly is supposed to move freely in a caliper like that; if it doesn't, then there is something to worry about.

9) I gave up at this point. Perhaps there is proof of bias somewhere in the last 3 minutes, but there was none in the first 7.

Not only do his spins prove nothing, but his argument itself makes no sense: if 5 and 6 appear on the bottom most often, then the most common totals would be 2, 3, and 4 — not 7.

It's like he is looking at a single result, let's say a 6. His argument boils down to, there was a 5/6 chance that this was not supposed to happen, so it must be biased because it did happen.

Haha nice. Cracking me up. So what you are saying is..... The gaming board won't be doing anything about these unbalanced dice any time soon. :P

-n

I think the takeaway message is supposed to be that the reason dice controllers are failing is because of crooked dice. The other takeaway message is that instead of getting part 1 followed by part 2, there's an ad video for DC DVDs inserted.

I LOL'd at another video of a DC'er who ran a few rolls and rolled 7, wait for it... exactly 1 out of every 6 rolls. He thought a lot of himself. I guess he didn't understand that posting the video was pretty dumb. Looks like he figured it out. It's "no longer available."

I wanted to post on the youtube page, but couldn't cause I forgot my login. The die are SUPPOSED to rock back like that. So if Vegas dice are biased ALL dice are biased. I'm not sure why they rock back, my guess has something to do with the weight distribution since the die is on an angle like that, the heavier PART of the die is rocking back, but all four of those sides would be the same (get what I'm saying)

I think it was a mix of this video and Penn & Teller that has almost convinced me to give up on dice influence. The guy that posted that video also posts a lot about his dice influencing and is convinced it works. Maybe that's true for him, and possible for others with practice, but watching this I'm more inclined to believe he doesn't really have the influence he thinks he has.

I also watched a lot of Penn & Teller's Bullsh!*. I began to think dice control could be a topic they cover. I was just imagining how they would tear it apart.

Maybe the videographer farted, causing the dice to rock.

Quote: nickolay411

Haha nice. Cracking me up. So what you are saying is..... The gaming board won't be doing anything about these unbalanced dice any time soon. :P

-n

I doubt the gaming board would do anything unless they were presented with evidence of unbalanced dice. The video above contains no such evidence.

Furthermore, the video's narrator is saying that the dice are biased to make 7 the most common outcome. Funny, that's exactly what the math says will happen with perfectly-balanced dice. If the dice were truly unbalanced, the video's narrator would be in the casino placing bets to take advantage of their bias rather than posting videos on YouTube which prove nothing but his lack of math skills and common sense.

Quote: JB

I doubt the gaming board would do anything unless they were presented with evidence of unbalanced dice. The video above contains no such evidence.

Furthermore, the video's narrator is saying that the dice are biased to make 7 the most common outcome. Funny, that's exactly what the math says will happen with perfectly-balanced dice. If the dice were truly unbalanced, the video's narrator would be in the casino placing bets to take advantage of their bias rather than posting videos on YouTube which prove nothing but his lack of math skills and common sense.

Im headed to vegas and im betting 7 every time. :)

Quote: rainman

Im headed to vegas and im betting 7 every time. :)

As long as you understand that 7 is the most common sum compared to any other individual sum, not compared to all non-7 sums combined, feel free.

no, the video-maker is correct, that's why I am getting rich playing the dark side

Crook dice don't really give much of an advantage anyway. You get more Research Assistant Error when rolling a pair of crooked dice than you get result bias, or at least Professor Persi Diaconis did.

Now when I tried to switch a pair of crooked dice into a game in Vegas I dropped one of the real dice as well so the Stickman just pushed two dice back to me and said "Go ahead and shoot, your point is 17".

Question:

If you find a Casino where "it seems" all the Dice are weighed towards the 6/1 and 5/2; What is the optimal way to make money?

This Casino is a Riverboat Casino that allows play only in International waters and I do not believe they are regulated by any commission.

I would think playing the Darkside would be optimal but EVERYBODY usually loses their entire bankroll within a couple of hours ($500 - $5,000) regardless of their strategy. The amount of 7's/11's that appear on the come out roll kills Don't players on the Don't Pass Line. Players playing the Pass Line/Come Bets get killed by 2's, 3's and 12's (On the Comeout Roll) and 7's all day!

My Suggested Solution #1:

*Don't play the Don't Pass Line

**Don't play the Pass Line/Come Bets

***Lay $240 against all the Numbers BEFORE the Comeout roll:
- Horns don't affect your Bets
- If the 7 hits, collect $160 before factoring the Vig
- If a Place Bet Hits, you only lose $40 at a time

My Suggested Solution #2:

*Bypass the Comeout Roll, simply lay against the established point.

I am NOT a Don't player but I may have to turn into one especially playing on Riverboat Casinos. When you notice the same trend for MONTHS and every single player including Pass Line/Don't Pass Line players complain about seeing strange things they have never seen before on a Craps table occur repeatedly; something has to change....

Try these "strategies" if you are a Don't player with a decent sized bankroll and please report back your findings.

Quote: CrapsForever

***Lay $240 against all the Numbers BEFORE the Comeout roll:
- Horns don't affect your Bets
- If the 7 hits, collect $180
- If a Place Bet Hits, you only lose $40 at a time.

I'm confused.

How do you break down that $240?

Quote: FatGeezus

I'm confused.

How do you break down that $240?

Lay $40 against each of the Place #'s (4,5,6,8,9,10)

$40 * 6 = $240

EDIT: 7 should pay you $160 before factoring the Vig

He's using cancelled dice. Cancelled dice normally have etching or added marks to show they are cancelled... which would indeed make the dice 'unbalanced'.

- Test using fresh dice. If your going to buy the calipers, go buy a stick of casino dice.
- Write you hypothesis first. Test for it. A lot.

Quote: CrapsForever

Lay $40 against each of the Place #'s (4,5,6,8,9,10)

$40 * 6 = $240

7out should pay you $180.

Not only are you a good "big fish" story teller, you have some interesting math abilities unless your casino pays differently on the Lay bets :)

A $40 Lay on 4 and 10 pays $20 each and vig is $2
total $40-$2 = $38

A $40 lay on 5 and 9 includes the vig. $39 pays $26*2 = $52

A $40 lay on 6 and 8 (should be $6 to win $5, $24 wins $20 etc)
$36 pays $30
$4 pays $3 (4 * 5/6 = 3.33)
$33 *2= $66. They may only get you for $2 vig. Net $64.

$38 + $52 + $64 = $154
and the Lays win on any seven, not just a 7out.
Sally

Quote: thecesspit

He's using cancelled dice. Cancelled dice normally have etching or added marks to show they are cancelled... which would indeed make the dice 'unbalanced'.

The cancelled casino dice I have, have either a big circle stamped into the face of the 4 and one has an X scratched on the face of the four.

Should be hard to have them stay in balance that way.
They look ugly when you know those marks are there ;)

Quote: mustangsally

Not only are you a good "big fish" story teller

I should let C-forever speak for himself, but I think what he was trying to lay out was a better strategy if you know the dice are biased towards rolling 7s. It is true that merely playing the dark side can see a lot of damage on the immediately resolved no pass bets with dice that keep rolling 7s....

all a fantasy anyway

Quote: mustangsally

Not only are you a good "big fish" story teller

Bottom Line!

I have NEVER told a gambling "big fish" story in my life! It's really disheartening that whenever anybody has any gambling related session to talk about on this board that might be out of the ordinary; the person gets attacked as a LIAR or Storyteller. I have never pushed any "system" on anyone. I have just offered my opinion and told what happened on my Craps/gambling session. I have learned a lot on this board and I wish to also share my experiences and hope we can all learn from it. If you think I make "stories" up, PLEASE IGNORE MY POSTS.

*If I told you that in my craps session on May 8, a player down $3,400 bet all the hardways for $50 each on the last shooter for the day, kept on pressing each hardway hit by $25 and walked away with $3,500 ($100 Total Profit) because the shooter hit A LOT of hardways. Would you call me a Liar?

*If I told you that in my craps session on May 11, I lost my entire $500 bankroll in one hour playing ultra conservatively on a $5 Craps table because not a single point was made... and that when they announced the last shooter of the day; I told a buddy who was with me to bet $5 on all the hardways and press, and the shooter (different from May 8) proceeded to hit 11 hardways (5 Hard 6's, 5 Hard 8's, 1 Hard 4) and my buddy walked away with $800 ($50 Profit). I sat there watching in stunned silence because I couldn't particiapate because I do not bring ATM cards to the Casino; I have ZERO self control. I will not borrow money to gamble either.
Would you call me a Liar?

* If I told you on May 12 (Yesterday), while playing No Limit Texas Hold'em at the Hard Rock in Fort Lauderdale, I got dealt Pocket Aces, the player to the immediate left of me also got dealt Pocket Aces and we both lost because the player to my immediate right played a hand of Jack/7 of Diamonds and he caught a flush with Runner (Turn), Runner (River) Diamonds. Would you call me a Liar?

*If I told you, the most consecutive points I have ever made was 8 points in a row *shooting from the Don'ts* at the Sands Bethlehem Casino on 11/27/2011 between 4:30am - 5:00am. Would you call me a Liar?

*If I told you, I lost 20+ consecutive Hands in Blackjack FOUR separate times in about a One Week period playing at the Hard Rock Fort Lauderdale and the Seminole Hard Rock (Fort Lauderdale) in August 2011. Would you call me a Liar?

*If I told you, I was just celebrating my English Premier League's team (Manchester United) upcoming title a couple of hours ago and then all of a sudden, Manchester City scored 2 goals against QPR in Sudden Death (In Literally 2 minutes) to snatch the title away from Manchester United; I would call you a "BIG FAT LIAR". It just happened! Check ESPN.COM

ALL OF THESE EVENTS HAPPENED! IF I AM MAKING ANY OF THIS UP, MAY GOD STRIKE ME DOWN WITH LIGHTNING RIGHT NOW!!!

Now let me go and cry the rest of the afternoon away......

" Now let me go and cry the rest of the afternoon away...... "

I assume those are crocodile tears. Despite not a single Full time job interview, you have had several gambling trips recently, some even comped, and every time you walked away a loser from a table game, you went home a winner in the eyes of your beautiful wife !

Quote: buzzpaff

" Now let me go and cry the rest of the afternoon away...... "

I assume those are crocodile tears. Despite not a single Full time job interview, you have had several gambling trips recently, some even comped, and every time you walked away a loser from a table game, you went home a winner in the eyes of your beautiful wife !

Not a single gambling trip comped yet. First one will be a hotel room comp @ Caesars in Atlantic City from 5/23 - 5/25. Saved a lot of money through the years so I have a very healthy gambling budget.

No further questions. The defense rests !

Quote: CrapsForever

Not a single gambling trip comped yet. First one will be a hotel room comp @ Caesars in Atlantic City from 5/23 - 5/25. Saved a lot of money through the years so I have a very healthy gambling budget.

Beautiful wife is the bread-winner and has an MD following her initials.

Next Question?

Where were you playing when you had all those hardways hitting? I want to play there!

Quote: CrapsForever

Not a single gambling trip comped yet. First one will be a hotel room comp @ Caesars in Atlantic City from 5/23 - 5/25. Saved a lot of money through the years so I have a very healthy gambling budget.

Beautiful wife is the bread-winner and has an MD following her initials.

Next Question?

My mistake, I thought you had taken a comp trip to Biloxi. Once again i was wrong !!

I have an offer for a fully comped (Flight + Hotel) 4 day trip to Biloxi, MS and was thinking about using it.

Quote: buzzpaff

My mistake, I thought you had taken a comp trip to Biloxi. Once again i was wrong !!

I have an offer for a fully comped (Flight + Hotel) 4 day trip to Biloxi, MS and was thinking about using it.

Actually, you are 100% right; I had a fully comped (Flight + Hotel) 4 day trip to Biloxi, MS for 5/22 - 5/25 at the Beau Rivage but cancelled it and decided to fly to Atlantic City for a couple of days (Comped Room at Caesars), then drive to NY to see friends and family for Memorial Day Weekend.

Friend and family should always come first. I honked at this cute girl in a mini-skirt waiting at the bus stop. Just my luck the guy with me was her cousin and game me her name and phone number. Been married to her 43 years now.

The ONLY Good Luck (currently) in my life is my wife. I have HORRIBLE luck in almost everything else; I am going to write a book about it one day.

CrapsForever --- Nice ideas posted !! I concur with your Suggested Solution #1, however I have a small concern with Suggested Solution #2. With biased unbalanced dice, you do NOT have 36 probabilities (although you do have 36 possibilities or actually 576 permutations). Depending on how unbalanced the dice are made, you have less numbers probable, therefore you will have some numbers repeat more often than they should. For instance, you will see a 10 established as a Point and too often than it should be repeated or made. I have been on too many tables with unbalanced dice in Las Vegas only to see both PL and dark side bettors lose.

What is hard for most people to understand is that unbalanced dice increases the HA (house advantage) on both sides of the dice. If you want to learn more, please visit this Link to more information about Biased dice

as for some other other posts I have to laugh, because your comments prove that over 50% of you have never even tried to balance anything in your life, let alone a die

Worse luck than Michael J fox ? or my teenage crush Annette Funicello ?

Harley, thanks for the reply.

Do you know if Riverboat Casinos that only allow play in International Waters are regulated by any commission? In my years of playing craps; the funny things that I have seen on craps tables have only been on Riverboat Casinos, Casino Cruises, etc.

I have seen Calipers to "ensure' that dice are not weighed irregularly in regular casinos but I have not seen that on Riverboat Casinos/Casino Cruises.

Everyone who believes vegas casinos are cheating patrons with unbalanced dice, must then also believe they are willing to risk there gaming license and the multi millions they make due to having one for a few extra bucks. Pretty hard to believe they would make that bet.

Quote: CrapsForever

Lay $40 against each of the Place #'s (4,5,6,8,9,10)

$40 * 6 = $240

EDIT: 7 should pay you $160 before factoring the Vig

I believe your stories. I probably could match your stories with things that I have witnessed in the casino in my 40+ years of gambling. I have seen someone lose $1Mil at the craps table and I hope no one ever witnesses this, but I saw someone drop dead at a craps table.

However your stories and my stories don't clear up the confusion about your $240 play at the craps table.

EXACTLY HOW MUCH $ DO YOU PLAY ON EACH LAY NUMBER?

Your explanation of $40 on each number ($240 total) doesn't make any sense for a win of $160 when the shooter tosses a #7.

Quote: FatGeezus

I believe your stories. I probably could match your stories with things that I have witnessed in the casino in my 40+ years of gambling. I have seen someone lose $1Mil at the craps table and and I hope no one witnesses this, but I saw someone drop dead at a craps table.

However your stories and my stories don't clear up the confusion about your $240 play at the craps table.

EXACTLY HOW MUCH $ DO YOU PLAY ON EACH LAY NUMBER?

Your explanation of $40 on each number ($240 total) doesn't make any sense for a win of $160 when the shooter tosses a #7.

I do not play the Don'ts (Which is why I lose most of the time) but when thinking of a Don't strategy; I was thinking of laying $248? against all numbers; LAY $40 - $42 against each place number (6 Place #'s) before the comeout roll.

$40 each against the 4 & 10 should pay $20 ($40/2) on each number (4,10) before paying the Vig.

$42 each against the 5 & 9 should pay $28 ($42/3)*2 on each number (5,9) before paying the Vig.

$42 each against the 6 & 8 should pay $35 ($42/6)*5 on each number (6,8) before paying the Vig.

$248 = ($40*2) on the 4,10 + ($42*2*2) on the 5,6,8,9

LAY against all numbers should pay:

($20*2) + ($28*2) + ($35*2) = $166

I used $160 in my previous example. Thanks to WONGBO for the correction on the Don't payouts and using the appropriate #'s not to give up additional House Edge.

Depending on your house rules, regarding Vigs payouts...you'll probably end up anywhere between $150 - $154 every 7 that occurs after you lay a total of $248 before the comeout.

My thought process is if you are a Don't player who consistently sees 7's especially on comeout rolls. Why not take advantage by betting against all numbers instead of losing your don't pass line bet? You can also choose to bet the entire $240 - $248 against one specific # instead of all the Place #'s like I used in my previous example. In this example let's use 5 or 9; you should get a similar payout if the 7 hits.

Lay $246 against the 5 or 9, ($246/3)*2 = $164 before paying the Vig.

I have not seen anyone do this in my years of playing craps but I think it could be lucrative for Don't players. In my last 5 sessions of playing Craps in Live Casinos; I have seen at least 5 7's in a row (consecutively) on the comeout roll in each of those sessions. That would be $150 - $154 (depending on the vig rules) payout on each comeout 7 on that specific streak resulting in a quick payout of $750 - $770.

There are only a couple of Don't players at my local craps spot. I discussed this "strategy" with them last Friday and they said it was interesting but they didn't feel they had the bankroll to support the play. One of the players who is there everytime I play, plays $10 DP, $1 Yo (11) to hedge his DP bet on every comeout roll, then he does triple odds on the DP bet and makes continous DC Bets. He lost a lot of his bankroll by getting killed by Comeout 7's.

Consistent Winning DP "Strategy" that I have seen in Casinos:

The one Don't Pass "Strategy" Bet that I see consistently doing well is the Laying the 4's or 10's or both before the comeout roll. Through my years of playing craps, it's the one consistent winning strategy that I notice Don't players making. It does not work all the time; nothing does in gambling but I have seen a lot of people make decent money using this "strategy" through the years.

Back in my local joint in March, there was a session where for 2 ENTIRE hours, a single 10 did not hit for a made point. This older lady standing next to me went from a starting bankroll of $1,000 to $5,000 in those 2 hours. She was betting $100 - $300 "NO 10's" the entire time before the comeout roll. She was the only person on the table to make a profit. She was standing right next to me; I should have jumped on her "strategy" a lot earlier during her miracle session (even though I hate playing the Don'ts).

As my "luck" would have it, after 2 hours of losing in that session; my $500 bankroll was diminished to about $125; I decided to follow her lead...I laid the No 10's for $50, the very next roll was a 10. With the point (10) established, I laid the 10 to lose for another $50, hedging with a $8 Hard 10. The next roll was a 6/4. I cursed "You got to be F**king kidding me" The table had "turned" immediately. I switched back to the "right side" and made about $300 with my last $20 ($200 Net Loss).

The lady lost the entire $5,000 ($1,000 Net Loss) in about 1 hour by not stopping her DP No 10's strategy when the 10's kept on hitting at a ridiculous rate. I could not believe that she was making the same bet even though the 10's would not stop hitting. I guess it's the exact same thing she was thinking when I, along with other players on the table kept on betting on the 10's along with other place numbers even though the 10 did not hit for 2 entire hours and everybody kept on 7ing out.

In my humble opinion, Craps players might be the most undisciplined players in the casino. I know that I definitely lack total discipline whenever I play Craps. I have great discipline in Chess, Texas Hold'em Poker, etc but when it comes to Craps, I go crazy on a table which is my biggest weakness along with not knowing when/how to press bets up during a hot streak! I always have a patient strategy before I start playing and my goal is to "bet what the table is giving you" mindset especially at my local craps joint where there are nothing but RIDICULOUS streaks in every single session. The problem is I NEVER follow this motto, I get too caught up in making the "appropriate" Pass Line, Triple Odds, Place 6/8, Come Bets that I have been doing for YEARS. By the time I fully recognize the "streaks", my bankroll is always too diminished to make a significant profit.

I apologize for the rather long post...

i am not really clear why you would lay $40 instead of laying $42 on 6/8 and 5/9
i know you realize you are giving edge to the house
when you don't lay a multiple of 6 on the 6/8.
(a multiple of 3 on the 5/9. multiple of $2 on the 4/10)

you should also tailor the amount wagered so that the vig on the win
is as close to the limit without going to the next dollar.
i think you could do a better job analyzing your strategy here.

Quote: WongBo

i am not really clear why you would lay $40 instead of laying $42.
i know you realize you are giving edge to the house
when you don't lay a multiple of 7 on the 6/8.
and a multiple of 3 on the 5/9.

Excellent Correction!

I'll go back and edit my post...so I should be using $42 on 6/8, $42 on 5/9 and $40 on 4/10, right?

I have played the Don't maybe 10 total times in my 12 years of playing Craps. I don't really pay attention to it, payouts, etc so I stand corrected on any of the Math.

Double Post

if you really want to minimize the house edge
you would take advantage of how much vig
they are going to charge you on the various win amounts.
for instance if they will take $1 on $30 win:

for the 6/8:
lay $36 = $30 - $1 = $29

for the 5/9:
lay $42 = $28 - $1 = $27

for the 4/10:
lay $60 = $30 -$1 = $29

this would ideally maximize your return for vig charged.
however it is more expensive than your method outlined before.

with this method you would be laying $276 (+$6 vigs) to win $170

if they will take $1 vig on $25 or less:
lay 6/8 for $30 = $25 - $1 = $24
lay 5/9 for $36 = $24 - $1 = $23
lay 4/10 for $50 = $25 - 1 = $24

total: lay $232 (+$6 vigs) to win $142.

if they will take $1 on $20 or less
lay 6/8 for $24 = $20 - $1 = $19
lay 5/9 for $30 = $20 - $1 = $19
lay 4/10 for $40 = $20 - $1 = $19

total: lay $188 (+$6 vigs) to win $114.

you may be able to find a casino that will only charge the vig if you win for the 4/10
so be aware that option exists at some places.

WongBo, Excellent Analysis!

I'm not sure why I always thought the minimum lay amount had to be at least $40. I am going to assume it's because the minimum "buy" on a specific # allowed at most places I play is $20 so I assumed that you'd have to bet at least double the buy side amount on the Lay Side resulting in a bet of at least $40 before accounting for the Vig.

So, are you telling me I can walk up to a table without a Don't Pass Line Bet and bet $24 - $30 against the 5/9 whenever I want?

i should clarify that when you are laying bets it is probably better to express it this way:
lay 6/8:
lay $24 + $1 vig = laying out $25 to win $20
in other words you risk losing $25 to clear $19 if you win.

yes you can go up to the table and lay numbers without a line bet.
it is best to lay them so that the vig is maximized ($20 or higher payout)
as i said before though, you should verify how much of a payout will trigger them charging
the next higher dollar in vig and bet so that you are right at the margin.
this will minimize house advantage.

WOW!

Learned something new today! Thanks WongBo!

hey CF, i forgot that the lay odds pay 5:6 not 6:7.
had a brain freeze earlier, so i went back and modified some of my posts.
but you get the general idea.

WongBo --- Ditto on the "Excellent Analysis!"

Quote: CrapsForever

...
I'm not sure why I always thought the minimum lay amount had to be at least $40. I am going to assume it's because the minimum "buy" on a specific # allowed at most places I play is $20 so I assumed that you'd have to bet at least double the buy side amount on the Lay Side resulting in a bet of at least $40 before accounting for the Vig.
...

CrapsForever --- The minimum Lay on any particular table has been explained to me as it must be an amount that will win you at least that particular table minimum. For instance, if you have a table minimum of $5 -- the minimum Lay bet on the 6 or 8 must be $6 (that pays $5) .... of course, remember in Nevada that any House can make up their own craps rules

Quote: Harley

--- The minimum Lay on any particular table has been explained to me as it must be an amount that will win you at least that particular table minimum. For instance, if you have a table minimum of $5 -- the minimum Lay bet on the 6 or 8 must be $6 (that pays $5) .... of course, remember in Nevada that any House can make up their own craps rules

Don't you still have to pay the minimum $1 Vig to the house if they allow a minimum lay of $6 on the 6 or 8?

the most important thing to remember is that the vig is 5% of the amount to be won.
also, on a table where $1 is the smallest chip denomination,
the minimum charged would be $1.
if you were to lay an amount that would win less than $20,
you would be paying a vig higher in percentage.
for instance: laying the 5/9 for $15 to win $10.
the $1 charged vig would represent 10% instead of 5%.

Quote: rainman

Everyone who believes vegas casinos are cheating patrons with unbalanced dice, must then also believe they are willing to risk there gaming license and the multi millions they make due to having one for a few extra bucks. Pretty hard to believe they would make that bet.

Rainman --- you think that would be the case, but we don't think so for 2 reasons:

1.a. First, is it really cheating patrons if you are just increasing the house edge on craps by using unbalanced biased dice ?? In Colorado yes - there is a specific statute regarding dice properties. In Nevada, no -- there is no law about what kind of dice to use. Nevada is the Wild Wild West where anything goes. For instance, Casinos use something called 6:5 BlackJack for the purpose of increasing the house advantage by as much as 800% over regular BJ .... see this below graph at Blackjack Scams



Many BJ experts claim that 6:5 BlackJack is not even BlackJack, yet Nevada casinos are still allowed to call that carnival game BlackJack .... so what you and I may consider cheating at BlackJack by the casinos is viewed by the Nevada Gaming Commission as just increasing the house advantage.

1.b. On the other hand, if using unbalanced dice is cheating - What are the laws in Nevada for cheating -- laughable to say the least. It says nothing about losing your license. The Risk to Reward ratio encourages cheating by the casinos. The risk of ever getting caught using Biased Dice is very minimal and even if the casino is caught, the $10,000 penalty of maybe getting caught once a year is well worth the $100,000 plus casinos protect every day Biased Dice are used.

The penalties for cheating in Nevada are outdated and only discourage cheating by patrons while the lack of enforcement actually encourages corporate greed on a much larger scale ... and don't let us forget a quote from the "Wall Street" movie sequel -- Mr. Gekko (Michael Douglas) says, “Someone reminded me I once said, ‘Greed is good.’ Now it seems it’s legal.”

Read more: moneyland.time.com

2. The Fox is guarding the Hen House --- who is going to take a license away from a casino if the casino pays for their paycheck and pension fund ... some fun reads over on The Bear Growls regarding this subject .... also see Link

Harley,

I read your link earlier in this thread regarding Biased Dice....and I have to say a lot of what I read was SPOT ON...in my opinion.

Going forward, what can we...the Craps players (consumers) do to combat the Casinos cheating us in this manner?

Quote: Harley

... What is hard for most people to understand is that unbalanced dice increases the HA (house advantage) on both sides of the dice. If you want to learn more, please visit this Link to more information about Biased dice

Harley, you can count me among those who do not understand how unbalanced dice increase the HA on both sides. Any characteristic of the dice that favors more of one number, or less of another has a money making play on the craps table. In other words, if you know a number, ANY number, is more or less likely to appear than random, you can make money. I don't see how this would be an advantage to the house.

if you know a seven is more likely,
i suppose you could bet the pass and then lay numbers if a point is set.
if the house is weighing the dice for seven,
they would gain alot on the seven outs but also lose alot on the passline.
i am not sure it would balance out and i would think they would
rather just take their chances with the edge of a fair game.
it still has a decent drop and hold.

"Casinos count on the casual player in a whirlwind visit to the casino not recognizing which days biased dice are used. Those of us that play more than 300 days a year see the difference. "

Gee, do that have xray vision? Or have their eyes been replaced with lasers ? What a JOKE !!

Quote: WongBo

if you know a seven is more likely,
i suppose you could bet the pass and then lay numbers if a point is set.
if the house is weighing the dice for seven,
they would gain alot on the seven outs but also lose alot on the passline.
i am not sure it would balance out and i would think they would
rather just take their chances with the edge of a fair game.
it still has a decent drop and hold.

My theory is most players (including myself) don't take advantage of the multiple 7's/11's on the comeout roll.

At my local joint, multiple 7's/Horns on the comeout roll is the norm in EVERY session. I write a little blog after most sessions for me (Craps Anomalies) to see if there are any "trends" that keep occurring. I just went back and reviewed it and noticed each of the sessions (10+) in my local spot has at least one comeout roll where there is at least 4 7's in a row thrown on the comeout roll.

The most extreme was one in March where a player had a ridiculous amount of 7's/Horns on the comeout roll. He had something like 12 consecutive rolls where he did not establish a number. I made about $160 on a simple $6 Big Red, $2 C&E on the players' comeout roll. I also saw a player in another session build his $30 Pass Line Bet to $240 multiple times in one session when he simply kept on doubling his Pass Line Bet after each 7/11.

I believe there are two parts to betting in Craps. The bets we make before the point is established and the bets we make after the point is established. I generally play $5 Pass Line, $1 Any Craps on a $5 Craps table before the comeout roll but notice I do better in the (Pre-Established Point stage) when I bet $10 Pass Line, $5 World on the comeout roll *if my bankroll can afford it* because I tend to throw a lot of horns. For some strange reason, I do extremely well when I try to protect multiple Come Bets **(I HATE COME BETS) on the comeout roll by betting $6 Any 7 (Hop 7's when available), $2 C&E.

Craps is random but I see a higher rate of 7's on the comeout roll than any other point of the game from random shooters. Personally, I am the KING of Point Seven Outs (PSO's) so I always bet with caution during that stage of the game also. In Rivers Casino in Chicago last week; I Point 7'ed (PSO) out 6 times in a row (Not the first time I have done that) and the 3 decent rolls I had...I "knew" (indescribable) when I was going to 7-out. I called my "bets off" and Hopped the 7's for $9 each time making a small profit. I HATE 7ing out...I hate people losing money betting on me..it drives me crazy! I hate it more when I tell people to "call off" their bets when I am shooting and they don't listen to me.

One of the craps players pulled me to the side and said "Thanks for telling me to call off my bets...I listened to you however that's the 3rd time in a row, you've called off your bets while you were shooting, hopped the 7's and threw a 7" he continued..."Why don't you bet BIG $$$ on the Hop 7's or Lay the Point for BIG $$$ when you get that upcoming "7out feeling"? I told him I will try that in my next session because I was not shooting the Dice anymore for the day. I've been saying "I'll try that (Hop 7's for BIG $$$) in my next session" for years hopefully one day I will listen to that GREAT advice.

Keep track and see if you notice a pattern/trend during your Craps sessions. I will go to my grave saying "pay attention to the bets the shooter makes". If a shooter calls "off" on his bets; I will always call "off" on my bets. I learned this in Atlantic City back in the early 2000s when a "great/lucky" craps shooter at BALLY's...called his bets "off" right before his FIVE consecutive "7outs" after great rolls. When the entire table including me got upset with him; he said "I called my bets off, listen and do what I say" - A shooter knows what he rolls better than anybody else no matter how random Craps is....

**Regarding Come Bets, through the years I notice I tend to shoot very well whenever I utilize Continuous Come Bets but everybody else making Place Bets makes a "KILLING" when I'm shooting while I make decent money. When I make Place Bets solely; I 7-out immediately most of the time. I hate Come Bets because you are limited to the table maximum Odds (Usually 5x) in most casinos I play. And I hate that 7's on the comeout roll takes away the Flat portion of the Come Bets. I threw 7+ 10's a few weeks ago, but made little money because I am RIDICULOUSLY conservative when utilizing Come Bets; I start with 1x Odds and build the Odds on each successive place # thrown. People who started with $5 "10's" had their place bets up to $100 after a few rolls and were getting $200 minus the Vig for every successive "10" that I threw. They were patting me on the back saying "Thanks"....I looked at their Chips rack with contempt.

I'm really looking forward to going to Atlantic City next week where I get to just focus; throw the dice, make minimal continuous Come Bets and my buddy will make all the big $$$ place bets for us.....I digress.