Craps felt and bet changes recently in Vegas

When Las Vegas Hilton changed their name to LVH, they also changed to paying double on the 12 in the field.

Last week, Cosmopolitan did the same thing.

About two months ago, Red Rock got the fire bet back.

And about one month ago, the Palms started offering the "all small, all tall, all or nothing at all" bets.

Just wanted to update everyone since these are recent changes to bets. The Wiz may want to update his craps survey page as he says on the page he "welcome corrections to outdated information."

The alls are also offered at Wynn and at Sam's Town.

You can also find Crapless vig paid on wins at the Las Vegas Club (across from Golden Gate) and the Plaza. I believe crapless is only offered on Friday and Saturday nights after 8pm. This is relatively new, and not sure how long it will last as I've seen plenty of people go from a couple hundred bucks to a couple thousand buying the 12's.

If you want more info on the latest changes to craps felts and details on bets and such, feel free to visit http://forum.goodshooter.com .. this is a very obscure website that I run, but all are welcome to join and participate.

Treasure Island re-covered its tables back in March. Rumor has it the new layouts are bouncier than the old ones. This was once one of my favorite places to play in Vegas.

Boulder Station can't seem to make up their minds what they want to do. In March they recovered their tables - after having just put new microfiber layouts on the month before. The newest-new layouts are felt as opposed to microfiber and carry the Fire Bet.

In a buck-the-trend move, the Venetian has added two tables. Seems like everybody else has been taking tables out.

Ellis Island has reportedly raised its table limit to $300. Previously it was $50.

Last but not least, I hear one of my old haunts (from the days when they had one of the best Prime Ribs in Vegas) Jerry's Nugget is now running a double odds game. It had been 3x4x5x.

So is the WoV now into letting other posters push their own sites on his forums?

Good idea if it works.
Nice touch guys!

Quote: guido111

So is the WoV now into letting other posters push their own sites on his forums?

Good idea if it works.
Nice touch guys!

the way this is going, it can only be good. How is one craps game going to look better than another on this site? It's going to have to be good.

Looking forward to the announcement that the XYZ now has something zero Vig. [g]

edit: Oh, I get it, the signature line. Hmmm. Can't say it bothers me currently, perhaps there would be some way it starts to get out of hand. Wow, I can picture some craps forums with intolerable jerks on board... which is why I am not checking in

Quote: heavy

Last but not least, I hear one of my old haunts (from the days when they had one of the best Prime Ribs in Vegas) Jerry's Nugget is now running a double odds game. It had been 3x4x5x.

I can confirm this.

Well, I think guido111 was referring to my signature block, which includes the name of one of my websites. I include my website address in my signature block on just about every forum I participate in. But I just got here and haven't mentioned a word about any of my upcoming get-togethers, etc.

Usually when I get these sort of reactions from forum members they either come from closed-minded math types who have never taken an unbiased look at dice control - or they're made by competitors of mine who post under multiple "sock puppet" identities for the purpose of flaming others.. Then there are the guys who just enjoy taking shots at people for whatever sick thrill they get from it. I think I passed along some useful information in the context of this thread. If anyone doesn't agree with that just skip by my posts. Not gonna hurt my feelings a bit.

Quote: heavy

Usually when I get these sort of reactions from forum members they either come from closed-minded math types who have never taken an unbiased look at dice control

What about the open-minded math types who have taken an unbiased look at dice control and have concluded that there are major flaws in the published literature on the subject?

And please don't underestimate the level of sophistication in the members of this forum. This is not Usenet: members here don't "flame" and "sock puppet". Wiz and his fellow moderators have done a remarkable job keeping this forum free of willfully disruptive members.

Quote: MathExtremist

What about the open-minded math types who have taken an unbiased look at dice control and have concluded that there are major flaws in the published literature on the subject? And please don't underestimate the level of sophistication in the members of this forum. This is not Usenet: members here don't "flame" and "sock puppet". Wiz and his fellow moderators have done a remarkable job keeping this forum free of willfully disruptive members.

Hey, you won't get me to disagree with you on the subject of flaws in the published literature on the subject. I made a lot of those mistakes myself. But I've always been open to allowing credentialed mathematicians and/or statisticians to track my rolls and decide for themselves. Wong did so on several occasions and he walked away saying he felt that I was playing with an advantage. I invited Robert Hannum out to a weekend get together at Dice Coach's place in Vegas five or six years back and he tracked a few rolls. Unfortunately, we never managed to get together to do any additional tracking after that one weekend - primarily because we could never get our respective schedules to work out so we could be in the same place at the same time. I've also invited a number of lesser known math folks out to hook-up - and pretty much been stood up every time. Who knows. Maybe they had their minds made up already.

I have books of literally thousands of my own rolls - and rolls of other players that I have tracked - that I believe reveal that some guys play with a statistical edge at the game. I realize you guys consider that sort of information biased, but it's what I have. I could tell you all sorts of stories about accomplishments at the tables, but then you'd just go on about selective memory or unsubstantiated evidence. No point in going to either of those places.

Now, as far as this not being Usenet and there being no flamers or sock puppets here . . . well, I'm afraid it started already on another thread on this site. No problem. I'm a big boy (as my handle implies). I can take it.

ATTENTIOn : Dice Setters

PM me for the next class where I will be teaching how to set on the new felts. Class is filling up rapidly , so get your deposits
in now.

Quote: heavy

Hey, you won't get me to disagree with you on the subject of flaws in the published literature on the subject. I made a lot of those mistakes myself. But I've always been open to allowing credentialed mathematicians and/or statisticians to track my rolls and decide for themselves. Wong did so on several occasions and he walked away saying he felt that I was playing with an advantage. I invited Robert Hannum out to a weekend get together at Dice Coach's place in Vegas five or six years back and he tracked a few rolls.

Even under the most favorable table conditions, you can't possibly generate more than 150-200 rolls/hour on average. I don't know anyone who qualifies as a "credentialed mathematician" who would stand next to you in a casino for as many hours as would be necessary to generate a statistically-significant sample. But then again, I don't know what you claim for your abilities, nor do I know what passes your test for "credentialed".

Also, recording thousands of rolls and then, after the fact, analyzing them for patterns or biases is an invalid analytical method, fraught with confirmation bias. Anyone can find patterns or biases in random data -- just look at most roulette players, biblical numerologists, or fans of Nostradamus.

If you are attempting to influence the dice, your results by themselves don't matter. The only thing that matters is this: what percentage of the time did the dice behave the way you wanted them to? If that percentage isn't meaningfully different than what would be expected under a uniform distribution of die faces, you haven't been successful.

Quote:

I don't know anyone who qualifies as a "credentialed mathematician" who would stand next to you in a casino for as many hours as would be necessary to generate a statistically-significant sample. But then again, I don't know what you claim for your abilities, nor do I know what passes your test for "credentialed".

Well, that IS the Catch 22, isn't it. Reminds me of the good old days when everyone demanded "proof" of this or that but no "proof" sufficed, regardless of who or where it came from. But to the point, I shouldn't think "credentialed" would need explanation but what the heck. Let's start with an advanced degree in statistics. Yeah, I'd probably settle for an advanced degree in mathematics. I'd prefer that person to be someone who works in the gaming industry in some capacity or another - if for no other reason than they would have more than a passing familiarity with the games we talk about. But credentials are . . . well . . . credentials.

Quote:

Also, recording thousands of rolls and then, after the fact, analyzing them for patterns or biases is an invalid analytical method, fraught with confirmation bias. Anyone can find patterns or biases in random data -- just look at most roulette players, biblical numerologists, or fans of Nostradamus.

Hmmm. I can see your point. I talk to players about something similar - the mind's willingness to connect the dots where connections don't exist. Take, for example, the myth that if the dice bounce off the table the seven will show up on the next throw. Let's say the next throw the seven does show up. The guy who has heard that rumor nods his head sagely and says "You see? I told you so." But that same player would have simply dismissed the results had any other number been tossed when the dice came back in the game.

When I look at my roll tracking history I'm looking at several different key factors. All too often guys like me get hung up on the whole sevens-to-rolls ratio thing, which I don't really pay that much attention to anymore. (Yes, I did in my younger days). However, I do track things you would probably consider insignificant. For example, single pitch results percentage, double pitch results percentage, left die off axis percentage, right die off axis percentage. All of which tell me whether I'm exercising any influence over the dice - without taking what number rolled into consideration at all.

Quote:

If you are attempting to influence the dice, your results by themselves don't matter. The only thing that matters is this: what percentage of the time did the dice behave the way you wanted them to? If that percentage isn't meaningfully different than what would be expected under a uniform distribution of die faces, you haven't been successful.

Well there you go! Congratulations. You have taken a giant step forward in your education on the subject dice influencing.

Quote: heavy

Yeah, I'd probably settle for an advanced degree in mathematics.

In that case, I wouldn't pass your criteria -- I have just an undergrad degree. But given that I've been a professional gaming mathematician for almost 15 years, I'd say that's more an issue with your criteria.

Quote:

Well there you go! Congratulations. You have taken a giant step forward in your education on the subject dice influencing.

Thanks for the kind words, but this is not news to me. Far from it. I've had the math behind dice influencing modeled for over a decade, and I've known that SRR is useless for exactly the same amount of time.

But since you're tracking the important stuff, what are your off-axis percentages for one and both dice, and over how many rolls at each table?

Quote: guido111

So is the WoV now into letting other posters push their own sites on his forums?

Good idea if it works.
Nice touch guys!

This where we started to drift off topic.

Quote: guido111

So is the WoV now into letting other posters push their own sites on his forums?

Good idea if it works.
Nice touch guys!

Now? That ship sailed a long time ago. Some forum members have been promoting themselves by posting their websites every chance they get without regard to the thread subject. Others join and post their sites once or twice never to be heard from again. Some are even smart enough to post it as a blog so that we're permanently stuck with it.

Thus far heavy has exhibited none of this behavior. He has identified himself and put his website in his signature which in my opinion is a classier move than bombarding threads with the site.

I don't know heavy and I have no interest in craps, but his love of the game and his experience show in his posts. If he continues to post as he has, I think he will be a good addition to this forum.

Quote: 1BB

I think he will be a good addition to this forum.

we shall see, but I agree the sig line is no big deal and even if he has a certain reputation elsewhere, he should have a chance to have a clean one here.

Quote: odiousgambit

we shall see, but I agree the sig line is no big deal and even if he has a certain reputation elsewhere, he should have a chance to have a clean one here.

I concur, and to get back to the OP's post, I also welcome any updates on changing game conditions in Vegas or elsewhere. I'm just wary of shameless commercial plugs, especially for something as practically quantitatively unverifiable as dice influencing. There are other members here with things to sell -- I'm one of them -- but you don't see me hawking my IP to every member who works in gaming operations.

OK, Heavy, please tell us to what degree you think you can influence the dice in a real world casino setting. Give me a real world example, such as .... if my point is 6 I can make it 54 out of 110 instead of 50 out of 110, or.... I can hit a hard six 13 out of 110 instead of 10 out 110. Once you tell me how 'good' you are I can devise a wager against you, as I believe real world dice influencing is a figment of your imagination. By the way, you live in Vegas, I assume?

Quote: MathExtremist

I concur, and to get back to the OP's post, I also welcome any updates on changing game conditions in Vegas or elsewhere. I'm just wary of shameless commercial plugs, especially for something as practically quantitatively unverifiable as dice influencing. There are other members here with things to sell -- I'm one of them -- but you don't see me hawking my IP to every member who works in gaming operations.

But, ME, maybe you should.
who exactly are you trying to sell to? Players? Does not look like that to me.
Casinos? I have no interest in that. To play one of your games in a casino?
I have no interest in that either. I do not like any of your games or side bets.
I have more interest in you math and computer skills. You only sell that but one can find small nuggets that you have placed here and there in some of your posts, not many but a few.

Heavy wants to sell HIS DI whatever to every Craps player for at least $1 and would NEVER offer his time for free! NEVER!
Wait, So does Frank and all the others DI sites. "My training seminars are better than the others and are cheaper."

Where are the DIs that have training sessions all for free?
Their time, in teaching their DI methods, should not be worth any money to them. They can easily make more money in a casino.

Why would a DI want to train others for free?
Because every Craps shooter at every Craps table needs to be a DI.
Now all Craps players will have an edge playing Craps.

But no.
All DI sellers want to make money from selling their time.
what a pure waste of time.

Oh, ME getting back to the OP and the thread. Sure a good idea.
Should we not make it add value to the Wizard's Forum FIRST...

instead of site pushers like the OP Ahigh
"If you want more info on the latest changes to craps felts and details on bets and such, feel free to visit http://forum.goodshooter.com .. this is a very obscure website that I run, but all are welcome to join and participate."

He should be pushing THIS current thread iF it was meant to have value, and even have JB set it as a Sticky in the Craps Forum.
We all want this and we all want that
go figure

When I first read about dice control, I believed with 90% certainty that it could be done, simply because I thought some scenarios indicated the dice did not behave randomly. Not only that, but the explanation that very little influence could change the odds to the players favor and that small influence would still take months of practice to achieve all makes it sound possible.

Now I'm 50/50 on the subject. I've put in a lot of hours, but I don't continue to practice on a day to day basis. I've had some very long rolls on several occasions, but I've also had some really bad sessions. I've had nights where I "feel the groove" and the dice seem to land the same way and react the same way every time, and I continually get the same repeating numbers. I really don't know, but if I'm going to play anyway, I'm going to try to influence the dice.


Back to the subject of the original post, what is an "ALL" bet?

Quote: ewjones080

Back to the subject of the original post, what is an "ALL" bet?

Try this link about half way down the page.

The ALL bet is a wager that you'll roll every number on the layout prior to the appearance of the seven. If the seven shows up on the come out roll then the bet is lost and you cannot make it again until the next shooter.

Regarding the other comments and questions to me regarding dice influencing on this thread - rather than continue to see the thread hijacked I'll crank up a new thread here shortly. Apologies that this thing went where it did. Not my intent. '

To the person who asked if I live in Vegas - the answer is no. I live in East Texas and play primarily in Shreveport/Bossier with occasional excursions to Tunica, Biloxi, Albuquerque, and (yes) Vegas. I do get updates on table conditions from folks on a fairly regular basis and try to pass them along to interested parties.

Up until about last fall I was running the Internet Department at an automobile dealership in Bossier City. For about a three year stretch there I was playing pretty much daily (not on weekends). I'd play early bird sessions in the morning and occasionally an early afternoon session. On rare occasions I'd play in the early evenings but these sessions did not generally go well.

I'm of the opinion you have to be both mentally and physically sharp to make the DI thing work. That's why I've taken a hit and run approach through the years. Blackjack card counters can sit on a stool eight to ten hours a day grinding out a profit, but it doesn't work that way with craps IMHO.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I'll start a fresh thread on DI here in a bit and we can go from there.

Cheers -

h