so...I was playing craps tonight....

I was at my local casino palyin craps with the boys havin some drinks....broke even after 3 hours...which I consider a win!!!...But to my point of the thread.....Don't you hate it when you run into a guy at the table who tries to explain his "winning system" to you and it is SO bad and you try explain why its not a "winning system" but he just cant grasp it and you want to pull your hair out?

SO this guy was betting $10 Dont pass...with no odds(this didn't surprise me becasue he was dumb as a rock) on the come out he would also bet 3 way hop bet on 7(15 to 1) and 12 and 11 hop bet(30 to 1 and 15 to 1)...and he was CONVINCED this was a "winning system" that cant be beat <shaking head>

Here is what he said........On the come out roll...If a 2-3-7-11 or 12 comes out I'm a winner....If a point is established...my $10 D/P bet has the advantage to win 60% of the time....therefore I have an advantage over the house with this "winning system"...I'm not gonna get into the conversation that was like 20 min of me explaining to him why he really didn't have a advantage over the house...he was to dumb to understand...BUT what really drove me nuts was he convinced 2 other players at the table to start betting that way too.......It was annoying LOL

Gambling is gambling and you are there to have fun...so play the way you like...its entertainment....but dont tell you you have a "winning system" when your math is HORRIBLE....sorry need to vent lol

Yeah, I get a kick out of some of the kooky systems people come up with. He's probably not accounting for the fact that he's already down $5 every time one of his $10 don't pass bets gets established. Ouch.

Can I ask how much our friend colored up at the end of the night?

His system is great, his wife is beautiful and he is right about the President ... he will soon wander away. Often broke.
I have no time for chats at the table. When he gets his name in the paper as having bought the casino, I may regret not having listened carefully to his system, but until then, I'm not really interested.

Quote: vert1276

.Don't you hate it when you run into a guy at the table who tries to explain his "winning system" to you and it is SO bad and you try explain why its not a "winning system" but he just cant grasp it and you want to pull your hair out?

What you eventually learn is to humor them. Why do
you think its your job to wise up a chump? Chumps
are happy to remain ignorant, let them be. Never
wise up a chump, you'll always regret it...

I try to avoid conversations like that.

Quote: vert1276

Don't you hate it when you run into a guy at the table who tries to explain his "winning system" to you and it is SO bad and you try explain why its not a "winning system" but he just cant grasp it and you want to pull your hair out?

Granted, I don't play craps exclusively, and just started playing it again after a bit of a hiatus (I was sticking to poker and VP for a while). I've never encountered anybody who told me about a system that works. I've seen people USE a system, or what I assume is their system, but I don't recall a situation where anybody explained how it worked to me.

Personally, I'd probably pretend to listen and maybe even nod politely; I could even say something like "I may have to try that sometime." Craps is one of the few games that casinos have[n't] screwed with on the main bet (Pass Line). Don't be surprised if Caesars properties make you pay a 5% commission on wins eventually. So I figure don't tap the fish tank if fish are swimming...

[edit]

Quote: Tiltpoul

Craps is one of the few games that casinos have screwed with on the main bet (Pass Line).

Huh? Would you care to elaborate?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Huh? Would you care to elaborate?

I realized after I posted that it only made sense in my head.

What I mean to elaborate on... casinos are able to make rules changes since players don't typically know any better (or apparently care in most cases). That's why Harrah's properties are littered with 6-5 on 6 and 8-deck shoe games with terrible rules. If players NEVER played them, I guarantee the tables would be gone... maybe replaced entirely with TCP or another high edge game, but they wouldn't survive.

SO... stupid people playing stupid bets on a craps table keep the craps games going. If everybody only played the smart bets, the casino would never make enough money on the table to keep it open. Then the rule changes would start to come into effect (No odds on the back, a 5% commission on wins on the pass line). Since the house makes a ton of money on the long shots, and people continue to play them, then they are fine with the pass line and odds bets being relatively fair bets.

Quote: Tiltpoul

SO... stupid people playing stupid bets on a craps table keep the craps games going.

Agree. This type of person is going to blow his money on something and it might as well be to keep a table game going that you want the casino to keep around. If you feel a brief moment of humanity taking over, just remember a word to the wise is sufficient. An argument is going to go nowhere.

Quote: vert1276

SO this guy was betting $10 Dont pass...with no odds(this didn't surprise me becasue he was dumb as a rock) l

A lot of don't bettors do not lay odds. They feel that after they're behind the number they have the advantage and that they shouldn't dilute it with an odds bet. It has been repeatedly shown that the odds bet does not affect the chances of winning, but rather serves just to increase the variance, or volatility, if you will.

At any rate, the end question is how did he fare? And was the table hot, cold or room temperature?

Quote: vert1276

SO this guy was betting $10 Dont pass...with no odds(this didn't surprise me becasue he was dumb as a rock) on the come out he would also bet 3 way hop bet on 7(15 to 1) and 12 and 11 hop bet(30 to 1 and 15 to 1)...

I actually do this myself occasionally. (In northern Nevada you'd hop 2/11 instead of 11/12.) The necessary conditions are that I have to be shooting from the Don't and the odds available are relatively low (345x), so that I have a relatively high flat Don't bet. I usually press the entire bet one unit if it hits. The objective is to protect against a long sequence of junk numbers and to get a nice payoff if a couple of 12s roll. You don't need to hop the 12 really, but doing so allows the bet to be in a multiple of $5.

The difference is that I take full odds once a point hits, and make multiple DC bets in addition, so that the cost of the hedge is rather small. Oh, and I don't go gloating to others about how my "system" can't lose.

Every casino needs more players like him. It is thanks to guys like him, that craps tables remain open.

If every gambler only played the pass/don't pass with odds, all the craps tables would close.

Another, "so I was playing craps" story. I was ready to make this guy hold the dice and throw the table at him!

Was at "Fallsview" casino and playing craps. Nice enough table (though for being the "nice" casino of the two together I was the only one to tip the crew in the horu or more I played.) I am to stickman's left, shooter is to my left at the end of the table. Now, I swear I have never seen anyone act like this before.

First roll, winner, seven, front line winner! (no darksiders at table at all, not even me.)

Gus is a little upset, says he has to stop doing that. I remind him he won.

Next roll, another 7-winner!

Guy gets a little more upset with himself. I say keep it up, we all won twice now.

Next roll, you guessed it, winner-7! Guy is now getting very upset. I just say keep winning.

Next roll (4th in a row for those keeping track), winner-7! 4 wins and still not a point established.

So now this yokel ASKS FOR NEW DICE! Now, asking for new dice is superstition we all know, but who ever asked for new dice after FOUR WINNING THROWS IN A ROW! You would swear he was betting the don'ts, but he was winning!

New dice come out and he gets a point. You guessed right if he sevened-out the first throw.

Has anyone ever heard of a winner asking for new dice?

As to the crew, they were friendly but not the most experienced crew I ever saw. One forgot to pay me on two winners in a row before I reminded him. But they thanked me for each crew-bet at least once and when I left.

Some folks just hate 7 no matter when it shows. I was hopping 7 on the come out yesterday at the Meadows and parlaying winners, could not even get two in a row. Wish that guy was there...

Fallsview in Niagara? The dealers are polite and reasonably well-trained. People don't tip a lot at those casinos. The cocktail waitress is lucky if she gets a buck.

You want a more animated crew? Trek up to Casino Montreal for some french craps. Loads of fun.

Quote: dwheatley

Fallsview in Niagara? The dealers are polite and reasonably well-trained. People don't tip a lot at those casinos. The cocktail waitress is lucky if she gets a buck.

You want a more animated crew? Trek up to Casino Montreal for some french craps. Loads of fun.

I didn't know if it was a "Canadian" thing or something else. I will say there are A LOT of Asians and other international travelers there. But that was not the case at my table.

Quote: AZDuffman

I didn't know if it was a "Canadian" thing or something else. I will say there are A LOT of Asians and other international travelers there. But that was not the case at my table.

I almost even see Asians at the craps table...

Quote: vert1276

I almost even see Asians at the craps table...

One did walk up holding an instruction sheet of some kind. I heard the dealer say, "this is a very complicated game" to sort of politely get him to try something else.

I have a question for dwheatley and AZDuffman. Do either of you play across the river at the Seneca casino? If you do, how do you compare the two for playing craps, the dealers, service, etc?

Quote: Fleaswatter

I have a question for dwheatley and AZDuffman. Do either of you play across the river at the Seneca casino? If you do, how do you compare the two for playing craps, the dealers, service, etc?

I wouldn't go so far as to say I "play" there but I have played there. One thing I will say flat out is the Seneca Casino is full of smoke. All the NY Bingo players went somewhere when the banned smoking there. When I did play there I was new at BJ, this was several years ago. The dealer did offer help with correct plays, being sure to say, "the book says......" NO FREE DRINKS in Canada. Seneca is the old Niagara Falls, NY Convention Center, albiet now very remodeled. The USA side of the Falls has improved since I was last there but is still not as nice. Though as I said to my friends, the Canadian Side has a far nicer view of the falls and thus will always get more tourists, and that is that. Add in Canada's more liberal tralvel visa policy.

As to "friendly-ness" my buddy did get an empty $25 table down to $15 for JUST US! Everyone else had to bet $25. On a Saturday Night! He tried for $10 but the Pit-Boss (female) said NFW to that. But she did let us play agt $15.

Rules seem mostly the same. Service was great in Canada. I said earlier about the first aid crew being so nice. And my buddy also lost a C$100+ slot ticket. A friendly slot tech, unasked, offered to call whoever and they cross-checked his player's club card and refunded it, took just a few mintues.

Downside is your USD does not go far in Canada.

All I can think of reading this topic is the old saying:
"Never try to teach a pig to fly. All it does is annoy the pig".
Trying to explain to an innumerate why their system doesn't work is usually a waste of time.

I try to leave people to their own systems. If someone asks the table or pit for advice, or looks lost, I'll chime in.

My home is Niagara Falls.

FallsView is a tourist casino, meaning that most of the players there are visiting from out of the region. It's by far the nicest of the three casinos (FallsView, Casino Niagara, Seneca Niagara). The dealers there are nice and knowledgeable (usually) and the tables there are fair. It's a fun time. You can't smoke there - you have to go outside -- big plus for non-smokers. You also have to pay for alcohol (Canadian law). Service is usually pretty good and fast. The casino is usually very busy on weekend nights and is a blast. There's plenty to do around the casino as well (Clifton Hill, the Falls, restaurants), and it's very safe. Big winnings are tax free!

Seneca Niagara is a better deal, usually. Table limits are usually lower, and you can smoke and drink there. Slots are a bit looser, and you can find better VP there than on the Canadian side. That said, I can't stand the smoke there. Because it is the only smoking casino of three, smokers congregate there and you'll find that a very high percentage of gamblers smoke and drink there... not alot of fun. For canadians, they have a free exchange program with the players card that let you exchange back to Canadian for free with a player's card, up to $300 I believe. But big winnings are taxable.

Casino Niagara is the smaller, locals casino. FallsView and Casino Niagara are owned by the same company, meaning that dealers work at both places. I find Casino Niagara more relaxing and quieter on weekend nights. Limits are generally lower for the same game. Service is about the same, and the craps dealers there are usually friendly but it depends on the crew as always.

as for winning system, given that the table is staffed by a minimum of 3, you're paying $21 - $24 / hour to staff the table. Add in the overhead charges and you're probably at about $30/hour to staff the table. if 10 people are playing just pass line, at 20 passes / hour at a $10 table, the expected loss is $10 x .01414 x 20 x 10 = $28.57/hour.

So definitely, the middle, the field, and outside place bets is what keeps the craps table open. Horn high yo for a nickel on every pass by one player nets the casino about $14/hour. All the hard ways for a buck ($4) over an hour nets the casino about the same. That's why the stick pushes those bets. it keeps him employed.

You figure most tables have a Boxman, a Stickman, Two Active Dealers, One Dealer on Rotation somewhere, ... a Floorman hovering somewhere. The casino sure doesn't make much money on these Basic Strategy grinders. The Stick knows he is on tips, if he can push those wild bets at least he stands a chance of someone getting some serious money. Even if he just pushes some less than wild bets but pushes something... he knows there will be action eventually. I don't think casinos would ever put dealers on salary.

Winning bets bring exuberance, exuberance brings curious passersby who, it is hoped, bring some serious money with them.

That craps crew that hired a hooker to open the table sure knew what they were doing. After a while she drifts away but she has had a nice start to her evening shift and so has that toke box.