Odds on someone else's pass/don't bet

A while back in another thread(regarding what, I don't recall) someone had mentioned putting the odds portion behind another players flat pass line bet(with their permission of course). How much better would this be for the odds person on the don't side? Obviously they don't have to survive the (don't)killer of the come-out roll, so me thinks that it would be a lot better(than the do side), no?

No. Odds, regardless of which side or whose bet they are placed behind, always pay fair odds @ 0% house edge. Odds don't have to survive a come-out roll, because you place them AFTER!

some good things:

*the don't odds are always on, without any hassle

*since you are taking the small end of the odds, you are less likely to get losing streaks

a bad thing:

*as you watch your bets get knocked off one by one, you realize it doesnt really matter.

Quote: dwheatley

Odds don't have to survive a come-out roll, because you place them AFTER!

That's what I said. The come-out roll is the don't killer. Once your don't bet travels to a point, you win more times than you lose, no?

Quote: Alan

That's what I said. The come-out roll is the don't killer. Once your don't bet travels to a point, you win more times than you lose, no?

you get paid a lot less too.

Quote: Alan

That's what I said. The come-out roll is the don't killer. Once your don't bet travels to a point, you win more times than you lose, no?

It doesn't matter if you place them behind the D/P or the P/L......both pay fair/true odds......its like saying would you rather have person A or person B flip a coin........Personally I would rather place mine behind the P/L than the D/P only becasue I like to bet less to win more......but it really makes no difference.......

It would be like if you rolled a dice and 1 and 2 won one bet and 3,4,5,6 won the other 1,2 paid 2:1 and 3,4,5,6 paid 1:2.....does it really matter which one you bet on....both bets pay true odds.......But most people would bet on the 1,2 because Like me they would rather bet $1 to win $2....... than $2 to win $1 even those both bets are statically the same.....

To a math geek out there... what's the PLAYER advantage in this particular situation?

I was playing at a casino with a $5 table min. The player was routinely putting up $5 on the line and $3 on the back. I was so close to asking if I could complete the bet for the profit.

Assuming I did, it would cost me $2 on the 6 and 8 to win $3, and on the 5 and 9, $1 would get me $2. I know you couldn't count on it and the dollars would be miniscule at best, but the thought crossed my mind as an advantage play.

Quote: Tiltpoul

I was playing at a casino with a $5 table min. The player was routinely putting up $5 on the line and $3 on the back. I was so close to asking if I could complete the bet for the profit.
Assuming I did, it would cost me $2 on the 6 and 8 to win $3, and on the 5 and 9, $1 would get me $2.

What makes you think you should be paid off 3 to 2 on the 6 or 8 odds bets? The original player would have to be a complete doofus to agree to that skew.

Quote: odiousgambit

a bad thing:
*as you watch your bets get knocked off one by one, you realize it doesnt really matter.

A worse thing:
*as you watch your Don't bets get knocked off one by one, by your companion who immediately afterward sevens out.

Does the dealer allow you to stack your odds bet separate from the other player?

If you can get approval from the dealer or boxman, more power to you, but I've never worked anywhere this was allowed. The house is loathe to give a player an even % bet, but it also leaves open the possible squabbles between the two parties involved...the original bettor might feel that a winning odds bet should be whacked up, especially if he's stuck and the other player's a noob.

this thread is one of the more interesting ones...needless to say the scenario is a rather "touchy" one...someone asked the math guys what's the PLAYER advantage in this particular situation? i don't believe the question has been answered directly here yet but is it obvious that if you can get a fair (free) bet without prior subjection to a bet where there IS vig, well, that is certainly an advantage...(then again maybe i misunderstood the question and the "player" referred to was the one eligible for the bet but not taking it in which case, well, no, there is no discernable advantage which is one of the things that makes the whole scenario so "touchy" to begin with! lol)

i have been playing bank craps for over 41 years and have thought about trying--asking after-- making just such a bet more than a few times but have not had the nerve to actually do it! and have heard it discussed out loud too more than a few times but have never actually seen it attempted...

there is a version of this, however, where i have been sorely tempted to speak up & take action! this is when a (seriously) innumerate DC bettor calls off his action ($10 or more) when a 6 or 8 is rolled...i would love to take over that bet and then place the 6 or 8 creating a no-lose situation but with a possible (albeit very small) win (most places will pay $11 on a $10 6/8 Place) well of course i might just quite sensibly leave the DC bet as is and not hedge it all but the fact is i most of the time already have a Come bet myself...again i have never actually done this but i have occasionally taken the innumerate aside (if i know the person or at least have some familiarity) to point out how he might benefit from his advantage instead of just throwing it away...

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

Quote: Alan

A while back in another thread(regarding what, I don't recall) someone had mentioned putting the odds portion behind another players flat pass line bet(with their permission of course). How much better would this be for the odds person on the don't side? Obviously they don't have to survive the (don't)killer of the come-out roll, so me thinks that it would be a lot better(than the do side), no?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you implying that Player A pays for the odds behind Player B's line bet and Player A gets the win instead of Player B?

I have said that if a shooter is on a good roll, making me a good profit, I'll sometimes post odds or up the odds for the shooter as a tip to them (hoping they'll get house money as well.) However, if it is allowable for me to post another player's odds and then I keep the money when it wins, I might considering looking for those opportunities.

This is weird. It would have to be like two friends and some sort of payment in the end for the pass line bettor. It's a weird situation since player b would be risking more. I feel like that would be a craps team play.

Quote: Pinit2winit

...It's a weird situation since player b would be risking more...

well, you are certainly correct that it is "weird"...

but, no, player b is not risking more...he is not gaining anything either and there's the rub...the situation is player b has a line bet (or conceivably a come bet) and he is not taking odds...his material interest is the same whether or not he agrees to let player a make an odds bet behind his line bet...that is: he has a line bet and a line bet only...either way...

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

I was playing at Harrah's Cherokee with a few other WoV members. I was short on BR and was only taking 2x odds. Teddys was standing next to me, and asked me if he could take the other 8x on my odds. I said sure, so he put his money on my odds. That brought a quick reprimand from the crew, that he could not be touching my bets.
for the next point, I had room for $50 more in odds, I just asked teddy if he had the $50 he owed me. He handed it to me, I put it on the odds, and then when it hit, I raked it all in, and then I paid him his portion of the win. I don't think the crew was very happy with our 'arrangement' but nothing more was said by the crew. Of course, teddy was trusting I wouldn't stiff him, since I was not under any obligation to give him any of my winnings, since it was my bet after all.........

As to the Player advantage for this, there is NONE. It is not an AP play against the casino.
Well, the player does have an advantage over every other player on the table, but the player has no advantage over the house. The odds bet, by definition, is a 0% HE bet. Neither the player nor the house has the advantage.
If you are taking odds on the points, you will win less often, but you get paid more when you do win.
If you are laying the odds on the Don't Pass, you will win more often, but you have to Lay more money than you will win.

My cousin Larry and myself used to do this all the time... I would stand next to him and let him make all the pass and come line bets; he'd ask me what I wanted in odds, I would move that amount from space to space in the rack in-between us, he'd pick it up and include it in his own free-odds bet. So, I would pay him as he make the bets. If we lost, we lost, but if we won, he would pay me my portions into our rack-bank, and this included "off and on" situations. We did this so much, we knew the house didn't like it, but the way we did it, it was almost legal, and Larry was such a whale, they let us get away with it most of the time.

A few notes:

1) This is not allowed.

2) Larry took all the risk, but he didn't care because he was going to make the flat bets anyways and he rarely took full odds on all of his numbers, BUT, nobody unfamiliar would let you do this with them because they are at risk of getting caught and getting barred, and also there might be a dispute, as previously mentioned.

3) TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, NO THERE IS NO MATHEMATICAL ADVANTAGE WHAT SO-EVER IN PLAYING THE FREE-ODDS OF DON'T PASS VS. PASS IN THIS SITUATION.

4) If you can get away with making them, these bets are the very best in gaming, HOWEVER, note that the house doesn't grant you any comps for free odds bets!!! You'll need to schmoes the comps from the dude your already feeding upon... can you say "Remora"?

5) ADVERTISEMENT: To the players, it DOES seem like a huge shame to waste the potential free odds of an established flat bet. That's why I invented TruePlace bets. If a player makes a pass-line bet, and the house allows him to take 10x odds on it, why wouldn't he? If it's a 4, the odds of him winning on any given roll are 1 to 2. But what if he could spread the 10x odds betting over OTHER numbers, still at free odds? In other words, THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.... TRUE ODDS payed for numbers you can PLACE!! Here is my fully approved U.S. utility patent for this gaming method, and I have a boatload of demos of games that utilize it. My invention keeps track of how much free odds are available and allow players to use this money on "TruePlace" bets, which pay at true odds!! Now when the player comes out with a 4, he can use the (10x flat amount) on the 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, AND 10, and I've thrown in other FAIR MAPPING bets the player can use the money for, like "TruePlace Coin-Flip" (pays true odds of heads or tales, NO HOUSE EDGE), "TruePlace Rock-Paper-Scissors", etc. In fact, once the player makes a flat bet, he can then make a boatload of other bets, and this makes TRUE ODDS payout wagers no longer obscure (not even marked on the table layout), it demystifies them and makes them available to the general public at large. I have personally demoed this to the Wizard of Odds. Questions and comments are welcome about this invention, BTW.

6) While it is true that the very best "no-skill" game you can play in the casino is to take maximum odds of Pass/Don't-Pass bets, THERE IS NO WAY TO EVER GAIN AN HONEST ADVANTAGE OVER THE HOUSE.

Thanks for your time.

Quote: Tiltpoul

To a math geek out there... what's the PLAYER advantage in this particular situation?

I was playing at a casino with a $5 table min. The player was routinely putting up $5 on the line and $3 on the back. I was so close to asking if I could complete the bet for the profit.

Assuming I did, it would cost me $2 on the 6 and 8 to win $3, and on the 5 and 9, $1 would get me $2. I know you couldn't count on it and the dollars would be miniscule at best, but the thought crossed my mind as an advantage play.

6/8: 5 ways to win $3 and 6 ways to lose $2.

(5*$3) - (6*$2) = +15-12 = +$3

$3/11 = 27% advantage

5/9: 4 ways to win $2 and 6 ways to lose $1

(4*$2) - (6*$1) = +8 - 6 = +$2

$2/10 = 20% advantage

Quote: RS

6/8: 5 ways to win $3 and 6 ways to lose $2.

(5*$3) - (6*$2) = +15-12 = +$3

$3/11 = 27% advantage

5/9: 4 ways to win $2 and 6 ways to lose $1

(4*$2) - (6*$1) = +8 - 6 = +$2

$2/10 = 20% advantage

Yes, there is an advantage here, but only because the player was making stupid odds bets. If a 6 or 8 is rolled and he makes any bet less than $5, he is simply GIVING money away to the house. When you compliment his stupid bets with your "proper" amounts, and then get the sucker to agree to pay YOU the differences, yes there is your advantage.

UNLESS the table is a quarter table, like at the old El-Dorato, El-Cortez, or the Joker's Wild!! If the table can pay $3.50 for a 6 or 8, THERE'S where the "stupid advantage" comes from. So maybe this guy was an old quarter table player who never figured out that he is now getting paid even-money for his $3 free-odds bet on the 6 and 8, or maybe Tiltpoul didn't notice it was a quarter table?

Same deal on the 5 and 9, it pays $4.50 on a $3 free-odds bet on a quarter table, and in that case, the free odds bet of $3.00 is "proper". Note that a free-odds bet of $3 on the 6 or 8 is NOT proper, it pays $3.60 and this would get rounded down to $3.50. The "proper" free-odds bet on a quarter table for a 6 or 8 point is $2.50; it would pay $3.00.

That must have been what was going on, because nobody is so stupid that they would make free odds bets that pay even money. Well MAYBE A SHILL would do it.

Quote: RS

6/8: 5 ways to win $3 and 6 ways to lose $2.

(5*$3) - (6*$2) = +15-12 = +$3

$3/11 = 27% advantage

5/9: 4 ways to win $2 and 6 ways to lose $1

(4*$2) - (6*$1) = +8 - 6 = +$2

$2/10 = 20% advantage

What am I missing? How are you getting 3:2 on the 6 & 8 and 2:1 on the 5 & 9 ????
Is that casino really paying off the odds breakage that way?

Any game I have seen is 6:5 on the 6/8;
($6*5)-($5*6) = 0 and 0/11 = 0

Quote: RaleighCraps

What am I missing? How are you getting 3:2 on the 6 & 8 and 2:1 on the 5 & 9 ????
Is that casino really paying off the odds breakage that way?

Any game I have seen is 6:5 on the 6/8;
($6*5)-($5*6) = 0 and 0/11 = 0

Raleigh:

RS's analysis is based on Tiltpoul's four-year-old post that RS quoted. Tiltpoul was talking about seeing someone else at the table always placing just $3 odds bets on every number and only getting paid less than full payout. He wanted to add $2 himself to the odds bet on 6/8 (making it $5) or add $1 to the odds bet on 5/9 (making it $4). He would let the original bettor collect the same payout as before and take all the rest himself. That's where the advantage play came from.

Thx Doc! I never would have figured that one out..

Quote: RaleighCraps

...Teddys was standing next to me, and asked me if he could take the other 8x on my odds. I said sure, so he put his money on my odds. That brought a quick reprimand from the crew, that he could not be touching my bets.
for the next point, I had room for $50 more in odds, I just asked teddy if he had the $50 he owed me. He handed it to me, I put it on the odds, and then when it hit, I raked it all in, and then I paid him his portion of the win. I don't think the crew was very happy with our 'arrangement' but nothing more was said by the crew. Of course, teddy was trusting I wouldn't stiff him...

thanks, raleigh for the report!

i allus wondered about this situation--the crew's reaction...as i said above, i've never had the cojones to actually attempt this even though many such "trusting" opportunities have arisen, nor, 41 years at the bank craps rail notwithstanding, have ever even witnessed such an attempt...talk about it, yes, actually doing, no...

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

Quote: discflicker

...the house doesn't grant you any comps for free odds bets!!! <bold emphasis & exclamations discflicker's>

this is simply not true at some places, where it is obvious---indeed at my local joint KNOWN to be true---that odds are comped (examples available upon request...lol)...in the "olden days" such generous (and, frankly not particularly smart business) complimentaries on odds bets were actually quite common...alas, it's true, it is not real common today but in many cases hard to tell actually...

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p