Ethical question--craps game w/matchplay
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40 members have voted
March 30th, 2011 at 5:42:12 PM
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Interesting ethical question:
I plopped down a $10 matchplay and a $10 bill on the Pass Line at a casino that will remain nameless. The shooter rolled an immediate come-out eleven. Winner winner buffet dinner! The dealer paid me, I scooped everything up, tipped the dealers $1, and walked away. I met my nephew who was playing the slots, and we went over to the cashier to cash in my chips. Only then did I notice that I had SIX red chips, not four...AND the $10 bill...and I still had the coupon!
Now, obviously, I should have gotten paid four red chips, and they should have taken the matchplay coupon. They had plenty of time to fix the error, though, since I stuck around long enough to throw them a dollar--so it seems like they didn't realize their mistake (or, quite possibly, the dollar toke kept them from acknowledging it?). I didn't really know what to do--going back to the table and handing them $10 and saying, "Hey, you overpaid me five minutes ago" seemed like it would feel really weird. I thought of going back and betting that $10 on a two-way hardway or something, but that didn't seem right either. So I just walked out, and to add insult to injury, I gave the coupon to my nephew, who went back the next day and used it to win a bet at blackjack (the coupon was collected by the dealer).
I feel like I was ethically obligated to go back and return the overpaid amount no matter how much time had elapsed--but the fact remains, I didn't. What would y'all do in a similar situation?
I plopped down a $10 matchplay and a $10 bill on the Pass Line at a casino that will remain nameless. The shooter rolled an immediate come-out eleven. Winner winner buffet dinner! The dealer paid me, I scooped everything up, tipped the dealers $1, and walked away. I met my nephew who was playing the slots, and we went over to the cashier to cash in my chips. Only then did I notice that I had SIX red chips, not four...AND the $10 bill...and I still had the coupon!
Now, obviously, I should have gotten paid four red chips, and they should have taken the matchplay coupon. They had plenty of time to fix the error, though, since I stuck around long enough to throw them a dollar--so it seems like they didn't realize their mistake (or, quite possibly, the dollar toke kept them from acknowledging it?). I didn't really know what to do--going back to the table and handing them $10 and saying, "Hey, you overpaid me five minutes ago" seemed like it would feel really weird. I thought of going back and betting that $10 on a two-way hardway or something, but that didn't seem right either. So I just walked out, and to add insult to injury, I gave the coupon to my nephew, who went back the next day and used it to win a bet at blackjack (the coupon was collected by the dealer).
I feel like I was ethically obligated to go back and return the overpaid amount no matter how much time had elapsed--but the fact remains, I didn't. What would y'all do in a similar situation?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
March 30th, 2011 at 6:48:22 PM
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Probably dealer error though it seems strange since dealers know that win or lose that coupon dies after one roll. He paid off from his working stack the correct amount and probably continued paying other players from his red hand as well and simply having done that step he mentally went on to the other actions he would normally have taken without remembering to bring his hand back and scoop up the coupon and the ten. He made the proper payoff but did not follow thru, probably some later distraction.
I'd just keep the money since most dealer mistakes favor the house in the long run, all life is 6:5 against.
I'd just keep the money since most dealer mistakes favor the house in the long run, all life is 6:5 against.
March 30th, 2011 at 7:01:17 PM
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It's a tough call, and ethics tend to take a beating in a casino. I doubt you'll find many members who blame you for not returning it.
What do you WANT to do? Keep it or return it? I assume you want to avoid getting the dealers in trouble.
If you'd rather keep it, with the casino's blessing, go around the side of the pit and tell the pit boss what happened, and ask him what you should do.
If you'd rather return it, go to the cage, and tell the manager there the same sting, and offer them the money.
What do you WANT to do? Keep it or return it? I assume you want to avoid getting the dealers in trouble.
If you'd rather keep it, with the casino's blessing, go around the side of the pit and tell the pit boss what happened, and ask him what you should do.
If you'd rather return it, go to the cage, and tell the manager there the same sting, and offer them the money.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, irrational, childish rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 30th, 2011 at 7:21:51 PM
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What you lose on the swings you gain on the roundabout.
They will eventually stiff you, if they haven't already.
They will eventually stiff you, if they haven't already.
March 30th, 2011 at 8:03:08 PM
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If it makes you feel any better...
A few months ago at the Palms my wife and I both put $10 each on the pass line with match-play coupons, and out rolled an 11. After eating, we cashed out, and realized we were $10 short.
So maybe it all works out in the end.
A few months ago at the Palms my wife and I both put $10 each on the pass line with match-play coupons, and out rolled an 11. After eating, we cashed out, and realized we were $10 short.
So maybe it all works out in the end.
March 30th, 2011 at 8:09:04 PM
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I voted to keep it. I too would feel guilty but I had an experience in the casino where I was paid $5 on a BJ hand I didn't win..when i kindly pointed out the mistake the dealer had to call the floor and everyone acted like I was a bad guy for slowing up the game or anything, even the dealer. I didn't get so much as a thank you so I will never point out another mistake in my favor in a casino.
March 30th, 2011 at 8:24:27 PM
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You're fine. If you really feel guilty, the next time they underpay you, let them keep it. And the next time you get a matchplay you were going to use, don't use it.
March 30th, 2011 at 8:54:37 PM
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Quote: Wavy70He told me so.
Ah, but what evidence do you have that it was Him talking? Maybe it was just the beer.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
March 30th, 2011 at 8:59:19 PM
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Quote: Wavy70None. Don't forget the Celestial Get Out Of Jail Free Card of the Catholic Church. The act of penance and contrition.
BTW if stuck in the desert w/o a priest you can confess directly to God.
I thought that if you don't make it to confession before you die, then you have to work off the time in purgatory (not to be confused with hell) for your sins since your last confession. According to "Growing Up Catholic" you have to serve 257,890 years for stealing a candy bar. Since I've never been to confession I don't have a the get out of jail card at all.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 30th, 2011 at 9:03:22 PM
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Quote: WizardSince I've never been to confession I don't have a the get out of jail card at all.
Bummer.
Just don't think you can set my soul to run laps for you :P
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 30th, 2011 at 9:27:39 PM
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Quote: P90It's really pretty simple. Just fill out this simple form.
1. Are you a Mormon?
2. Have you ever strayed from Mormon principles?
3. Are you of Eurasian origin?
If you have answered "No" to one or more of above questions, you are going to Hell. Congratulations!
So Eurasian Mormons go to hell unless they stray from the religion's principles? Talk about a conflict of interests!
March 30th, 2011 at 9:27:50 PM
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Quote: P90Lots of loopholes, but just 144,000 spots in Heaven. Out of seven billion, your odds are 1 to 48,610 - about the same as hitting a royal in a single hand!
Well not if you are a Christian.
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.
March 30th, 2011 at 9:35:07 PM
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Quote: Wavy70Well not if you are a Christian.
It's right there in the Revelation, so no, no way around it. Everyone else goes to Hell. Resistance is futile.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
March 30th, 2011 at 10:54:24 PM
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Quote: mkl654321
I plopped down a $10 matchplay and a $10 bill on the Pass Line at a casino that will remain nameless. The shooter rolled an immediate come-out eleven. ... The dealer paid me, I scooped everything up, tipped the dealers $1
Whoa! Whoa! Who are you and what have you done with mkl? Easiest dollar that dealer ever made.
Quote: WizardSo I went to the guard station and asked whom I should pay. The guard said "just forget about it." But I insisted that I pay somebody. The guard just laughed and said something like "do what you gotta do." So I asked if I could pay him and he said "go ahead." So I gave him some money, I don't remember how much, and he accepted it.
In retrospect, I'm sure he just pocketed it, and the Frontier was out the money it cost them to buy that glass. I would send them a check if they were still around. Okay, Catholics, how much time in purgatory do I have to serve for that?
Gee, ya think? Of course he pocketed it! And the loss of a single mug is what brought down the Frontier. Thanks a lot.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
March 31st, 2011 at 12:22:39 AM
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Sweet mug! I see a pair of those did NOT sell on an ebay auction recently. Bid was only $15 for 2. No sale.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
March 31st, 2011 at 5:00:13 AM
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Heck, if they were valuable, don't you think someone would have simply run off a good big batch of them and then dribbled them slowly onto the collector's market via ebay?
March 31st, 2011 at 5:12:32 AM
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Quote: mkl654321The minor stuff, like splitting tens, does get you X years in North Las Vegas, or Purgatory, whichever is less attractive to you.
There are very good reasons that Paradise is on the opposite side of town from North Las Vegas.
March 31st, 2011 at 7:25:00 AM
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my 3 cents:
*dealer errors that I don't recognize immediately I blow off. As this thread pretty much confirms, it is too awkward to correct later [and may not even be appreciated if immediately pointed out]. Immediately recognized, yes, I nonetheless will point out, fighting temptation at times.
*yep, the WoO's transgression, knowingly doing it, is definitely worse. Sorry. Bribing the security guy made it worse. You better hope that Purgatory is the worst that comes of this [g].
*There is a Kennedy that had children with a woman he married and still was able to get his marriage nullified by the Catholic Church. So Mr. Shackleford just needs to convert and pay the Greenbacks it seems.
*dealer errors that I don't recognize immediately I blow off. As this thread pretty much confirms, it is too awkward to correct later [and may not even be appreciated if immediately pointed out]. Immediately recognized, yes, I nonetheless will point out, fighting temptation at times.
*yep, the WoO's transgression, knowingly doing it, is definitely worse. Sorry. Bribing the security guy made it worse. You better hope that Purgatory is the worst that comes of this [g].
*There is a Kennedy that had children with a woman he married and still was able to get his marriage nullified by the Catholic Church. So Mr. Shackleford just needs to convert and pay the Greenbacks it seems.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
March 31st, 2011 at 7:49:28 AM
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NLV seems to have tackled the problems of bad cops, so I see NLV as nowhere near as bad as people describe it.Quote: SanchoPanzaThere are very good reasons that Paradise is on the opposite side of town from North Las Vegas.
March 31st, 2011 at 8:17:10 AM
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Quote: WizardWould this be the difference between a venial and a mortal sin? In other words mortal sins, the worse kind, are premeditated, and venial sins are accidental? Can you elaborate on what you have to do be absolved of each kind, and the punishment if you don't?
Being a Protestant, I search for the answer from the Scripture, unguided by the church.
First John 5.16-17: "...There is sin that is mortal;... All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal."
I think he leaves it hanging there.
A Catholic among us can probably answer your question.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
March 31st, 2011 at 8:53:10 AM
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Quite frankly, I believe that when ANY bar provides a beverage in a glass with their name on it, it is designed to be a souvenir.Quote: odiousgambityep, the WoO's transgression, knowingly doing it, is definitely worse. Sorry. Bribing the security guy made it worse.
In fact, before you leave, many such establishments will exchange your glass for a clean dry glass.
What the Wiz should have done is to go to the bar and ask and/or offer to pay for it there. While the staff probably would have said to keep it even if it wasn't a designated souvenir, at least there, any money paid would have at least been a lot more likely to land in the right place.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, irrational, childish rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 31st, 2011 at 8:56:15 AM
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By the way, why is the Wiz concerned with the level of sin for his transgretion?
If he's gonna get on the express elevator going down, it's not for stealing a bar glass, but for attempting to purchase a soul!
If he's gonna get on the express elevator going down, it's not for stealing a bar glass, but for attempting to purchase a soul!
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, irrational, childish rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 31st, 2011 at 8:59:59 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearWhat the Wiz should have done is to go to the bar and ask and/or offer to pay for it there.
I'm surprised they weren't for sale at the gift shop.
Of course if they were, then the Wizard sinned even more badly....
Or maybe it was a matter of Saks 5th Ave./Bloomingdale's cookie recipe? An urban legend tells of a person, often an elderly woman, asking for the recipe for the chocolate chip cookies served at a department store's restaurant/snack bar/cafeteria in a big city. She's given the printed recipe, then later in the month she finds a charge for it on her credit card bill for an outrageous sum ($2,500 if memory serves).
Maybe the Frontier let you have the mug, but charged you sureptitiously for it?
The urban legend in question is pure bunk, naturally.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 31st, 2011 at 9:00:56 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearIf he's gonna get on the express elevator going down, it's not for stealing a bar glass, but for attempting to purchase a soul!
Oh, yeah!
How about winning one in a bet? How about losing one in a bet?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 31st, 2011 at 9:16:12 AM
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I'm the kind who would give back the money and the coupon. I'm probably going to hell anyway, but I like hot weather and fun people, so no biggie.
My oldest son put a Get Out of Jail Free card from a Monopoly set in his wallet. I told him not to be a smartass and use it if he got pulled over. And I told him not to do anything to get pulled over in the first place. He's a good kid, but a joker like his mom.
My oldest son put a Get Out of Jail Free card from a Monopoly set in his wallet. I told him not to be a smartass and use it if he got pulled over. And I told him not to do anything to get pulled over in the first place. He's a good kid, but a joker like his mom.
Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.
Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.
March 31st, 2011 at 9:33:43 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearIf he's gonna get on the express elevator going down, it's not for stealing a bar glass, but for attempting to purchase a soul!
I don't feel guilty about buying or winning souls in a bet because they were consensual transactions made between mature adults. However, to take something that doesn't belong to you is just not cool, and I deserve to be punished for that.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 31st, 2011 at 9:45:41 AM
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Quote: WizardI don't feel guilty about buying or winning souls in a bet because they were consensual transactions made between mature adults. However, to take something that doesn't belong to you is just not cool, and I deserve to be punished for that.
I am sure a dominatrix out of Las Vegas yellow pages can accommodate you. LOL
March 31st, 2011 at 11:21:07 AM
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Quote: buzzpaffI am sure a dominatrix out of Las Vegas yellow pages can accommodate you. LOL
I put that in and got lots of suggestions, but none specifically for a dominatrix.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 31st, 2011 at 1:22:37 PM
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Quote: WizardI put that in and got lots of suggestions, but none specifically for a dominatrix.
Now we can add soliciting to your rap sheet.
Redemption is becoming more and more unlikely.
March 31st, 2011 at 2:44:58 PM
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Quote: teeth1Now we can add soliciting to your rap sheet.
Redemption is becoming more and more unlikely.
Dang, I'll never get out of the hole now. How can I apply the Martingale to this situation?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
March 31st, 2011 at 3:06:28 PM
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Whoa! NOW you opened a can of worms...
Doesn't your commandments cover systems?
Doesn't your commandments cover systems?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, irrational, childish rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
March 31st, 2011 at 3:17:52 PM
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Quote: WizardDang, I'll never get out of the hole now. How can I apply the Martingale to this situation?
Actually, there is a Gentleman who will gladly assume responsibility for all your outstanding eternal debts (Romans 6:23).
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
March 31st, 2011 at 3:25:51 PM
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Quote: AyecarumbaActually, there is a Gentleman who will gladly assume responsibility for all your outstanding eternal debts (Romans 6:23).
Actually a professional dominatrix engages in fantasy BDSM play, not sex. So the Wizard ought to be safe from that charge.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
March 31st, 2011 at 3:49:59 PM
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Quote: WizardDang, I'll never get out of the hole now. How can I apply the Martingale to this situation?
I don't know if the martingale comparison is valid but, you certainly appear to be in a downward spiral compounded by an inability to arrest your escalating crime rate and the seriousness of your offences.
You may regret telling that joke about lawyers.
March 31st, 2011 at 6:07:26 PM
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Quote: WizardDang, I'll never get out of the hole now. How can I apply the Martingale to this situation?
Double the magnitude of your sins until you finally achieve redemption.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
March 31st, 2011 at 6:10:26 PM
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Lawyer jokes.
Q: What do you call a lawyer with an I. Q. of 50?
A: Your honour.
Q: Why won’t sharks attack lawyers?
A: Professional courtesy.
Q: What do you call a lawyer with an I. Q. of 50?
A: Your honour.
Q: Why won’t sharks attack lawyers?
A: Professional courtesy.
March 31st, 2011 at 6:37:59 PM
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wow, teeth, way to stay on topic.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
March 31st, 2011 at 6:41:31 PM
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Quote: zippyboywow, teeth, way to stay on topic.
What was the topic? I forget.
March 31st, 2011 at 9:28:12 PM
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I am still facing purgatory time for watching the Red Skelton show instead of Bishop Sheen. Plus skipping mass on Ash
Wednesday and showing up for school with ashes from the furnace on my forehead.
Wednesday and showing up for school with ashes from the furnace on my forehead.
April 1st, 2011 at 6:24:58 AM
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I attempted to move posts relating to purgatory and Catholicism to Ask a Catholic.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
June 3rd, 2011 at 4:45:53 AM
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Being overpaid is one of the great joys of gambling, especially craps. The casinos pay the break ins nothing, they work for minimum wage and tips.
Someone actually tipped on a hit and run match play? I'd over pay you too!.
How many times has there been a questionable situation and the casino ruled in your favor? Never, at least for me.
And they gave back the coupon? Even Better!
I bet the don't allot and I've been underpaid, had the dealers scrape all my bets on a pass line point winner, and then been told I was wrong. I know the lay odds pay offs better than most dealers, and they're more easily confused because most players bet the pass line.
It's a gift, enjoy the money.
Someone actually tipped on a hit and run match play? I'd over pay you too!.
How many times has there been a questionable situation and the casino ruled in your favor? Never, at least for me.
And they gave back the coupon? Even Better!
I bet the don't allot and I've been underpaid, had the dealers scrape all my bets on a pass line point winner, and then been told I was wrong. I know the lay odds pay offs better than most dealers, and they're more easily confused because most players bet the pass line.
It's a gift, enjoy the money.
Member In Good Standing!
June 7th, 2011 at 5:01:39 PM
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Keep it all, but if you're worried about the karma, why not throw a bet for the boys for kicks? Dealers would appreciate it Mr Mystery Craps Shooter.
