chworktap
chworktap
Joined: Mar 30, 2011
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March 30th, 2011 at 2:48:40 PM permalink
Great. Thank you for clearing this up for me! It's good to know that, if I wanted to, I could reproduce this bet again at any table that allows put bets (did I mention my casino has 10x odds?).
chworktap
chworktap
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March 30th, 2011 at 2:55:54 PM permalink
@Wizard: I understand what you're saying but I was definitely not making a new come bet. What do you think about what others have said here, that this is simply equivalent to a "put" bet?

(PS: I'm honored that you have replied to this thread. Can I take this opportunity to say that I have been thoroughly enjoying your articles and analyses on this and your companion web sites? I think I probably owe you a bunch of money in winnings ;-) )
RonDiaz
RonDiaz
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March 30th, 2011 at 2:58:28 PM permalink
I agree an honor to have the Wizard chime in. I don't know that I owe him winnings, but I certainly owe him for losing a lot less and at least thoroughly understanding everything I play. Beyond that it's on me when I pump a Benjamin through some slot or throw that two way hard way.
mkl654321
mkl654321
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March 30th, 2011 at 5:58:19 PM permalink
The dealer should take the entire bet down and pay it. By leaving the entire bet up, he was essentially re-posting the original come bet for you, but without that bet having the benefit of the win-favorable initial roll on the come line. The effect is the same as a "put" bet, where you come to the table in the middle of a roll and want to jump in on the pass line. The house will let you put the pass line bet together with full odds on the pass line. The reason they'll let you is that it's a terrible bet. The odds bet is, of course, OK, but the line bet ("put") is not. For example, let's say the point is 5. You are now going to be paid even money on a bet that is 3:2 against you--and you never had the benefit of the pass-favorable come-out roll.

For the above reason, the dealer is NOT "legit" when he does this; he is ripping you off. By leaving those come bets "up", he's making a bet "for" you that has a house edge of either 16.66%, 33%, or 50%, depending on the come number involved. Not good!
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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March 30th, 2011 at 6:36:30 PM permalink
If you had a come bet it may have been an Off and On without the dealer telling you, but the odds shouldn't have stayed on it.

Some casinos allow the bet to stay up as a Put Bet but most casinos don't allow put bets and I guess few crews really know what a Put Bet is anyway.

It could have been a mistake by a new or very busy dealer.

It could have been a "mistake" but only if the Box Man catches him at it. By that I mean, he will keep making that mistake in the hopes that you will realize he is doing something that benefits you and you will then toke him a bit generously as well.

It also could be simply that he felt tired of dealing to people who do not parlay bets and he was just trying to give you what he felt was "better action" than an endless series of minimum bets. Blackjack dealers sometimes take pity on a person who doesn't know how to play and just start dealing basic strategy, particularly if she is a young and attractive player and the dealer is male. Usually craps dealers just suggest things but don't actually do much more than leave an occasional bet still up when it should be taken down.
waltomeal
waltomeal
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March 30th, 2011 at 7:42:17 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Some casinos allow the bet to stay up as a Put Bet but most casinos don't allow put bets and I guess few crews really know what a Put Bet is anyway.



I'm curious why a casino would prohibit put bets, given their house edge. Does anybody have an idea why a joint would disallow them?
Old enough to repaint. Young enough to sell.
jsantee97
jsantee97
Joined: Mar 25, 2011
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March 30th, 2011 at 7:53:22 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

If you had a come bet it may have been an Off and On without the dealer telling you, but the odds shouldn't have stayed on it.



If it were an off and on the odds would stay on wouldn't they
pacomartin
pacomartin
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March 30th, 2011 at 10:52:27 PM permalink
Quote: chworktap

Last night I was at a craps table where the dealer paid me the winnings of a come bet, but left the original bet (with odds) *up*, and kept paying me the winnings every time that number was rolled. I did not have to make new come bets, I just let the old ones ride.



Can you confirm what I think you are saying?

You put a $10 come bet, and an 8 is rolled. You add $60 in free odds and the thrower hits his point.
You expect to be paid $10 + 6/5*60 = $82 and have your original $70 returned.

Instead the dealer pays you $82 leaves the $70 untouched and unmoved and keeps on paying you $82 every time the 8 is thrown? Your feeling is if he would have converted it to a place bet it should now be paying $60.

At no time do you have a new $10 come bet on the table.

Is that correct?

Because if you do have a $10 come bet, like the Wizard says, he is just assuming you will put the same free odds.
chworktap
chworktap
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March 31st, 2011 at 11:33:16 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Instead the dealer pays you $82 leaves the $70 untouched and unmoved and keeps on paying you $82 every time the 8 is thrown? Your feeling is if he would have converted it to a place bet it should now be paying $60.

At no time do you have a new $10 come bet on the table.

Is that correct?



I hereby confirm that is *exactly* what I'm saying. Yes 100% correct. Sorry that my explanation was unclear.
chworktap
chworktap
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March 31st, 2011 at 11:42:23 AM permalink
All,

I think the mystery is solved.

I went back to the casino last night and chatted with the dealer. This casino does indeed allow put bets. Combined with the fact that they have 10% max odds, that makes the put bet somewhat attractive in terms of house edge -- 0.83% on the 6 and 8 if I'm reading the wizard's craps page correctly which is better than a place bet on the 6,8 at 1.5% house edge.

To clarify: the dealer "leaving up" my come bet with odds is identical to making a put bet with my original come and then adding odds on the put bet using my original come odds. So, totally legit at this casino.

So... I "put" the 6 and 8 a few times and once again got lucky, doubled my money and left the table. :-) (YMMV)

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