Thumbs Down Bristol VA Craps

I was shocked. Recently visited 'Hard Rock Hotel & Casino Bristol' [Bristol Virginia] midweek and they had no Craps game going at a Craps table, day or night, for our two night stay. They advertise that they have Craps, so this means an average of, well, I don't know how many people arrive each day after possibly traveling a good distance to find out it’s “bubble Craps” time! The fact that they at least had that availale keeps me from claiming it’s false advertising … but it is not keeping me from titling this thread the way I did.

Oh, I guess they would want me to mention that they had a table of Crapless Craps going. Unfortunately for them, this just continues my rant. I find it completely unacceptable to have a waiting traditional table closed down while expecting Craps players to go over to the table where the house edge on the pass line is increased by something like fourfold. That I view as

A COMPLETE SCANDAL!!

East coast Craps players, you have been warned.

Shocking, but not surprising. Casinos just can't get enough of those miserable little Interblock terminals. It's everywhere too- in the past year at least 3 casinos in Vegas have dumped all live table games and replaced them with those, while still advertising "table games."

A dealer who was not really comfortable about talking about it said since Crapless is not a public domain game, but a licensed game, that this was a big factor in such decisions.

I think it is the house edge.

It's really a 'Just Say No' situation here

Quote: odiousgambit

...I think it is the house edge...

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Even deeper than that. Corporate psychology. Whoever made the decision to order those games put his reputation for good judgment on the line. He also probably got a little envelope from a salesman.

And there's a thing that happens in general human psychology when you underestimate someone and they prove you wrong. Casino executives think the players are stupid. Sometimes they're right, to some degree. But when people realize the house edge on Crapless is much higher and avoid playing it, that means they're not so stupid. And if you made a decision based on thinking someone was stupid and they prove you wrong, what does that make you? That hurts, and people avoid pain. That somebody would rather hurt his employer's bottom line than see all the players avoiding the games that were his idea and just playing regular craps, not so surprising, right?

Quote: odiousgambit

A dealer who was not really comfortable about talking about it said since Crapless is not a public domain game, but a licensed game, …
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I thought Crapless recently became public domain. That, and the higher house edge, are why it’s popping up everywhere.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: odiousgambit

A dealer who was not really comfortable about talking about it said since Crapless is not a public domain game, but a licensed game, …

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I thought Crapless recently became public domain. That, and the higher house edge, are why it’s popping up everywhere.

link to original post

naturally I wanted to check out what the dealer said, and if the googlebot can be believed, it's current intellectual property of a Bob Stupac. I'd imagine he'd have some control what with needing the special layout on the felt

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: odiousgambit

A dealer who was not really comfortable about talking about it said since Crapless is not a public domain game, but a licensed game, …

link to original post

I thought Crapless recently became public domain. That, and the higher house edge, are why it’s popping up everywhere.

link to original post

naturally I wanted to check out what the dealer said, and if the googlebot can be believed, it's current intellectual property of a Bob Stupac. I'd imagine he'd have some control what with needing the special layout on the felt
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If you mean the Bob Stupak who built the Stratosphere, we would need a Ouija board to get his opinion on this. Died in 2009.

I wondered if I hadn't heard that name somewhere. The googlebot may have it wrong.

Or perhaps Stupac's heirs are still making money on Crapless

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I thought Crapless recently became public domain. That, and the higher house edge, are why it’s popping up everywhere.
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While the term “Crapless Craps” is a trademark, the actual game has always been public domain according to the No-crap craps patent.

Virginia has another casino besides caesars in Dansville?

Quote: 100xOdds

Virginia has another casino besides caesars in Dansville?
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Even ignoring all the Rosie's locations, yes.

there's the Bristol one that is no place for a Craps player, note well, and the Caesar's in Danville you mention, plus a Rivers Casino in Portsmouth, connected to the Pittsburgh outfit I think; haven't been to that one

I'll be blogging about my visit to Bristol and Danville

There's several of these Rosie's 'emporiums' where you can play slots. One is called a 'resort' which may just mean there is a hotel to stay in, maybe they comp rooms, if they're smart they do for the right people. Link,
https://www.therosegamingresort.com/

Quote: odiousgambit

I'll be blogging about my visit to Bristol and Danville
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I look forward to it since caesars is giving me free rooms at Danville.

How many APs are there? infested?

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: odiousgambit

I'll be blogging about my visit to Bristol and Danville
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I look forward to it since caesars is giving me free rooms at Danville.

How many APs are there? infested?
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I didn't try to vulture vp or slots and couldn't spot an AP otherwise. I suspect there were big schools of fish in the poker room.but didn't play

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: odiousgambit

I'll be blogging about my visit to Bristol and Danville
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I look forward to it since caesars is giving me free rooms at Danville.

How many APs are there? infested?
link to original post

I didn't try to vulture vp or slots and couldn't spot an AP otherwise. I suspect there were big schools of fish in the poker room.but didn't play

Quote: Dieter

Quote: 100xOdds

Virginia has another casino besides caesars in Dansville?
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Even ignoring all the Rosie's locations, yes.
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Those are all horse racing machines or whatever they’re called. I would assume the casinos are class 3.

Certainly there will be players who recognize that they can still play Crapless Craps very close to the way they always played on a regular Craps Table and would decide that's OK if the regular table is closed. In particular I have always seen a lot of players in real Craps placing the 6 and 8 along with their passline bet, and many others adding buy bets on 5|9 and 4|10. A savvy player is then able to keep the HE reasonably low, depending on what he finds acceptable.

The problem is that same player usually would use free odds along with the passline bet, so his total action would have lower HE. As I understand it from the WoO page below, the Crapless free odds can only be applied to bets on the 2 and 12, and on the 3 and 11. This means two things, it's still bad luck to have these points to resolve no matter, and secondly I can't think of a good excuse for not allowing free odds on 4|5|6|8|9 and 10 as points to resolve. It seems to be just pure confirmation that no HE less than outrageous is welcome at all, and with this mindset the house probably grumbles about allowing the 6|8 place betting.

So your plan is to just place bet the 6 and 8? You won't be able to roll the dice. At least they declined to allow it without a passline bet at Hard Rock Hotel and Casino Bristol when I was there.

The smart Craps players will 'just say no' and we better all pray this 'Crapless only' business does not become a trend.

No mercy for any casino that does this. Warn your fellow Craps players.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/crapless-craps/ .

I think the WOO site mentioned the payout ratios for the 2, 3, 11, & 12 odds bets. I believe odds are allowed on any point number. The HA figured for 1X, 2X, 3X or 5X odds is applicable as an all points can have odds percentage. Color-Up mentioned to take 5X odds to get the HA down to 1% in his video. Not sure tables allow 5X on all numbers. One thought comes to mind is that tables may have 1X, 2X, 3X, 4X, 5X odds limits so that all payouts end in 7X including the PL. I don't know, I've never seen a Crapless Craps table in action. I'll have to search YouTube for some actual play.

I used to play a crapless craps machine over 30 years ago and mostly played $0.25 on the PL and $1.50+ on the 6 or 8. There was a dollar denominated machine that I never played but it'd be $1 on the PL and $6+ on the PB 6 or 8. The machines pay to the penny, so making $7 or $8 bets on the PB 6 or 8 pay properly. If I was at a table, it'd be $5 or $10 on the PL and $36 on the PB 6 or 8.

From what I've seen on YouTube, the Crapless Craps machines these days are starting to demand a vig upfront to make buy bets which raises the HA to absurd levels.

$10,000 VS NEW CRAPLESS TABLE! - by Bluff (at the El Cortez, Apr 25, 2025)
He says $500 limit on the 2, 3, 11, 12 and $1,000 limit on the 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10.
2X odds on the 2, 3, 11, 12; and 3X, 4X, 5X odds on the rest of the numbers.
There's some new bets I've never heard of before. Fielder's Choice with 20% Dealer Envy to the Dealers. Hardways All Day. Repeaters.
Players are pitching in a vig on a win.
For $1,004 you can get $100 across with $102 on the 6 & 8.




There was another video I ran across that had 10X odds for all numbers.

What I'm seeing in this video is a lot of action on all the numbers, heavily overbet for the bankroll, then early 7-outs taking away all 10 bets. The PL is just an afterthought bet compared to the box number bets.
A sign said Bonus Bets are $1 - $25.

One way to play at this level is $25 on the 2, 12; $50 on the 3, 11; $75 on the 4, 10; $100 on the 5, 9; and $120 on the 6, 8 for a total of $740 across and each payout is around $150 minus the vig. Most tables have a $20 minimum for Buy bets. Just need about 5 hits per shooter to break even on the shooter.

Color-Up did mention that some Crapless Craps tables have automatic Buy bets starting at $10, but you would still be out the 50 cents on the $1 vig for a $10 bet. If that were the case, I could change my bets to $10 on the 2, 12; $20 on the 3, 11; $30 on the 4, 10; $40 on the 5, 9; and $48 on the 6, 8. Each bet would pay just short of $60. Total outlay would be $296. I would need at least 5 hits per shooter to break even.

On a regular craps table I could Buy $30 on the 4, 10; $40 on the 5, 9; and $48 on the 6, 8. Each payout is just short of $60. The total layout is $236. I just need about 4 hits per shooter to break even.

Back to my previously found strategy to bet high on the 6 & 8 then split the winnings on the next two outside numbers. I could bet $30 on the 6 & 8, win $35, then put $20 on the 5 or 9; and $15 on the 4 or 10.

The WoO page doesn't say you can take odds on all numbers. It may be true that some casinos vary on their own

Even if you take odds on what used to be 'craps' numbers, the HE is horrendous, and the EV on the bet is unchangeable don't forget. You can change the HE by adding action, but not then eliminate the EV, of the line bet. Plus now your total action is way up there

Quote: odiousgambit

The WoO page doesn't say you can take odds on all numbers. It may be true that some casinos vary on their own

Even if you take odds on what used to be 'craps' numbers, the HE is horrendous, and the EV on the bet is unchangeable don't forget. You can change the HE by adding action, but not then eliminate the EV, of the line bet. Plus now your total action is way up there
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The only time I've played crapless was by mistake, and I got out of dodge when I realized what was going on. Since then, on my semi annual trips to LV I take a closer look at the craps tables to make sure it's regular and not crapsless. While not an exhaustive survey, I believe every crapless table I've seen offers 1x/2x/3x/4x/5x odds.

Quote: wilbsmitt

Quote: odiousgambit

The WoO page doesn't say you can take odds on all numbers. It may be true that some casinos vary on their own

Even if you take odds on what used to be 'craps' numbers, the HE is horrendous, and the EV on the bet is unchangeable don't forget. You can change the HE by adding action, but not then eliminate the EV, of the line bet. Plus now your total action is way up there

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The only time I've played crapless was by mistake, and I got out of dodge when I realized what was going on. Since then, on my semi annual trips to LV I take a closer look at the craps tables to make sure it's regular and not crapsless. While not an exhaustive survey, I believe every crapless table I've seen offers 1x/2x/3x/4x/5x odds.

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Aha! I was wondering if someone would shed some light on that. I take it you mean “up to 5x” ?

The Wizard may have been going by the NV.gov link I found,

https://www.gaming.nv.gov/siteassets/content/divisions/enforcement/rules-of-play/Crapless_Craps.pdf

which also only mentions certain free odds on the 2,12, 3 and 11. Of course it’s always been true you don’t know what you will get for free odds on the other numbers anywhere you might go. I wouldn’t be surprised if an outfit that would leave a real Craps table shut down while operating a Crapless one, just has 2x free odds or none at all. Like the one in Bristol. Yes, absolutely no mercy, no quarter for such dens of iniquity.

Searching for information elsewhere, I found some claims that players were ‘getting into’ Crapless where you can buy numbers with commission on win only. The Wizard shows the HE on that to be 0.7143%. With one chance in 7 to win, I’d be ready for some long losing streaks, otherwise why not?* Just don’t expect to find ‘win only’ all over the place. I’d also let others do all the rolling!

* except please do not play Crapless when they've shut down the regular Craps. We've got to march shoulder to shoulder on this

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder

Up to one time on the 2 and 12, up to 2x on the 3 and 11. up to 3x on the 4 and 10, etc.

Quote: wilbsmitt

Up to one time on the 2 and 12, up to 2x on the 3 and 11. up to 3x on the 4 and 10, etc.
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sounds like 3x4x5x of regular craps expanded out with the decreasing theme allowing the dealers to know the payout is always the same, 6x. Something tells me the math of that is something that could have had me predicting it right away, but no