Change of Dice
Quote: smoothgrhhas anyone ever seen that dice tool being used on the casino floor? I have never.
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If I were a casino manager, I'd check the dice in a back room.
Quote: smoothgrhhas anyone ever seen that dice tool being used on the casino floor? I have never.
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nor have i seen it being used on a table!
[rimshot]
I usually only see it after a dice has flown off the table and been recovered.
Interestingly enough, the photo on that page shows the caliper being used incorrectly:Quote: DieterPossibly of interest:
https://www.kardwell.com/dice-tools
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When I did an image search, the second hit had the dice correctly inserted, and was from a WoV thread from 2013!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/12853-quest-for-the-worlds-best-dice-balancing-caliper/#post215953
Note: when inserted correctly, balanced dice can be spun freely, with no back & forth settling when the stop. If there’s back & forth, or repeated spins stop on the same area, their weighted.
So have I--in Harrahs Philadelphia, back when it was called Harrahs Chester, they used to test each dice ON THE TABLE every time they changed dice. This was shortly after they added table games to the former racino's all-slots offering. That sort of time sink lasted about three months, when they moved it all back to the back room.Quote: DJTeddyBearBTW - Yes. I’ve seen the caliper being used at a craps table, once.
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Seems to me that if a casino wanted to demonstrate transparency, they'd test the dice on an unused craps table, with the Eye in the Sky watching, so the public can see them doing it. You certainly don't want to slow down play on a working table, but the tests must be done, so why not do them out in the open?
I believe it's every four hours in a Strip casino, but Ellis Island (off-strip) changes theirs every twelve hours.Quote: WABJ11How often are the dice changed on a table in Las Vegas? Is it possible since they are just cubes they can be bias?
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Quote: BillHasRetiredI believe it's every four hours in a Strip casino, but Ellis Island (off-strip) changes theirs every twelve hours.Quote: WABJ11How often are the dice changed on a table in Las Vegas? Is it possible since they are just cubes they can be bias?
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That hasn’t been my experience. They seem to change them starting on day shift on the strip from what I have seen, or a game that just opens. I have seen them measure the dice using one of those calipers before placing new dice on a new game. I think in Vegas they are measured with the caliper before, and placed in a golden wrapper for easier access to change. One of the Maloof brothers plays craps at Bellagio, and I’ve seen him request new dice and they oblige since he’s down over 1 million dollars. They take the golden wrapper and unwrap them onto the table.
My question is after 16 hours on the table, and being thrown against a rubber wall, thrown off the table, hitting the floor, hitting slot machines, hitting foreign objects off the table, surely after 16 hours racked up and off the table they have to become bias at some point. And maybe even bias towards the player? Maybe that’s why we call it “going on a roll?”
There's really no Bias towards the house or players in craps since you can make various different bets. If the dice are biased enough you can tailor your bets accordingly and do well. Most people bet on the pass line so if it's biased toward the pass line the house would tend to lose more in that situation.Quote: WABJ11Quote: BillHasRetiredI believe it's every four hours in a Strip casino, but Ellis Island (off-strip) changes theirs every twelve hours.Quote: WABJ11How often are the dice changed on a table in Las Vegas? Is it possible since they are just cubes they can be bias?
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That hasn’t been my experience. They seem to change them starting on day shift on the strip from what I have seen, or a game that just opens. I have seen them measure the dice using one of those calipers before placing new dice on a new game. I think in Vegas they are measured with the caliper before, and placed in a golden wrapper for easier access to change. One of the Maloof brothers plays craps at Bellagio, and I’ve seen him request new dice and they oblige since he’s down over 1 million dollars. They take the golden wrapper and unwrap them onto the table.
My question is after 16 hours on the table, and being thrown against a rubber wall, thrown off the table, hitting the floor, hitting slot machines, hitting foreign objects off the table, surely after 16 hours racked up and off the table they have to become bias at some point. And maybe even bias towards the player? Maybe that’s why we call it “going on a roll?”
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dice will strike an abrasive and harder-than-wood object that could remove any
mass or deform the dice and/or its edging enough to cause noticeable bias.
Unless the dice get thrown rather forcefully at an abrasive and/or harder
material, the dice will scarcely show it is worse for the wear...if it
clearly shows a ding/flaw, the boxman should see it and deal with it the
next time they inspect the dice for stickiness, numbering, etc.
For a die to be biased, it would most likely become that way from poor
manufacturing and/or quality-control from where they were produced rather
than the likely use at a casino for a day. If a skilled caliper-check is done
prior to use at a casino craps table, it should prevent that.
So from what I’ve seen MGM properties change the dice about every 16 hours. Does anyone else know how often other strip properties change them, and other places around Vegas?
Quote: WABJ11Not possible to have bias dice
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i agree with todays laws
Quote: WABJ11or control them in my opinion
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my rule is if there is a law against something then its real... PA has laws specifying what a throw or toss is and the one thing you cant do is slide the dice... so i disagree with your opinion and will tell you that it is of my opinion that sliding is a form of control
Quote: heatmapQuote: WABJ11Not possible to have bias dice
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i agree with todays lawsQuote: WABJ11or control them in my opinion
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my rule is if there is a law against something then its real... PA has laws specifying what a throw or toss is and the one thing you cant do is slide the dice... so i disagree with your opinion and will tell you that it is of my opinion that sliding is a form of control
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Yes sliding constitutes cheating. An old trick is throwing one die and sliding a 6 so you’re almost guaranteed to get paid on the field. You’ll only lose if the genuinely thrown die against the wall land on 1, (for 7) 2 (for 8), while the rest pay the field. Though this is a common chest that many casinos are aware of sliding one die to make it look like a roll to a 6.
Quote: WABJ11How often are the dice changed on a table in Las Vegas? Is it possible since they are just cubes they can be bias?
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We change ours every 8 hours. They are micrometered before, but not after.
If I'm in that area of the floor tonight or tomorrow, I'll micrometer them after and see how they compare. There is usually no dead time during the 8 hours before I get there, so they are used continuously for 8 hours.
ZCore13
Every 8 hours? So what do you do on a game that’s in the middle of play, and the 8 hours is up? You take the dice off the game, and stop play to change the dice?
You don’t have to say the property but can you say approximately where you work and what shift?
Quote: WABJ11On a game let’s say is open during the day, I do not see them change dice again until the next day.
Every 8 hours? So what do you do on a game that’s in the middle of play, and the 8 hours is up? You take the dice off the game, and stop play to change the dice?
You don’t have to say the property but can you say approximately where you work and what shift?
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You change at the 7 out. I'm at the largest casino in Az. Swing Shift, 5pm - 1am.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Quote: WABJ11On a game let’s say is open during the day, I do not see them change dice again until the next day.
Every 8 hours? So what do you do on a game that’s in the middle of play, and the 8 hours is up? You take the dice off the game, and stop play to change the dice?
You don’t have to say the property but can you say approximately where you work and what shift?
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You change at the 7 out. I'm at the largest casino in Az. Swing Shift, 5pm - 1am.
ZCore13
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So this is specific to this tribal casino? That’s interesting. I don’t think that’s the norm in the business
Quote: WABJ11Quote: Zcore13Quote: WABJ11On a game let’s say is open during the day, I do not see them change dice again until the next day.
Every 8 hours? So what do you do on a game that’s in the middle of play, and the 8 hours is up? You take the dice off the game, and stop play to change the dice?
You don’t have to say the property but can you say approximately where you work and what shift?
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You change at the 7 out. I'm at the largest casino in Az. Swing Shift, 5pm - 1am.
ZCore13
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So this is specific to this tribal casino? That’s interesting. I don’t think that’s the norm in the business
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Every casino makes their own policies and procedures. I'll ask a couple craps people from other casinos what they did.
ZCore13
I expect the boss can order new dice at any time.
If they order new dice mid-hand, they may allow unresolved bets to be taken down, as a courtesy to the superstitious.
Quote: DieterWaiting for a 7-out sounds like a customer service courtesy.
I expect the boss can order new dice at any time.
If they order new dice mid-hand, they may allow unresolved bets to be taken down, as a courtesy to the superstitious.
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I can't speak for other places, but we would never change mid shooter unless we had proof of the dice being altered or unfair.
ZCore13
The felt sported a long gouge in it for a couple of days until they could get in the guy who replaces the table covering.
I still can't figure what the original roller thought to accomplish, nor how he figured he'd get away with it.
Quote: WABJ11Thanks I’m very curious what the standard (If there is one). Your casino changing the dice every eight hours seems to be an exception not the rule.
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I checked with a few people at work. Some of these could have changed since they left but,
Patawani Casino, Milwaukee - Every 4 hours
Foxwoods Casino, Connecticut- Every 8 hours
Luxor Casino, Las Vegas - Every 4 hours
Osage Casino, Tulsa - Every 8 hours
Morongo Casino, California - Every 8 hours
I put a micrometer on dice that had been used for 8 hours. They were still within the "square" range. All corners were noticeably less sharp, but seemed about the same on each corner. My guess is at some point they could have been slightly unbalanced, but after 8 hours the corners all equal out and are balanced.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Quote: WABJ11Thanks I’m very curious what the standard (If there is one). Your casino changing the dice every eight hours seems to be an exception not the rule.
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I checked with a few people at work. Some of these could have changed since they left but,
Patawani Casino, Milwaukee - Every 4 hours
Foxwoods Casino, Connecticut- Every 8 hours
Luxor Casino, Las Vegas - Every 4 hours
Osage Casino, Tulsa - Every 8 hours
Morongo Casino, California - Every 8 hours
I put a micrometer on dice that had been used for 8 hours. They were still within the "square" range. All corners were noticeably less sharp, but seemed about the same on each corner. My guess is at some point they could have been slightly unbalanced, but after 8 hours the corners all equal out and are balanced.
ZCore13
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That’s really interesting information. Thank you. So the corners were noticeably squared down, eventually they are somewhat beaten down after being on the game for only eight hours. I play at a property on the strip, and they don’t change the dice every 8 hours. Obviously they put new dice on a game that is just opened. The continuous day game they have going seems to have the dice on the table for 16 hours, until the next day shift comes on.
Are these dice expensive? What material are they exactly made out of? I personally have never seen dice changed on a live game, and I play A LOT. I would also notice if they changed dice on a game while I was away.
Quote: WABJ11Quote: Zcore13Quote: WABJ11Thanks I’m very curious what the standard (If there is one). Your casino changing the dice every eight hours seems to be an exception not the rule.
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I checked with a few people at work. Some of these could have changed since they left but,
Patawani Casino, Milwaukee - Every 4 hours
Foxwoods Casino, Connecticut- Every 8 hours
Luxor Casino, Las Vegas - Every 4 hours
Osage Casino, Tulsa - Every 8 hours
Morongo Casino, California - Every 8 hours
I put a micrometer on dice that had been used for 8 hours. They were still within the "square" range. All corners were noticeably less sharp, but seemed about the same on each corner. My guess is at some point they could have been slightly unbalanced, but after 8 hours the corners all equal out and are balanced.
ZCore13
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That’s really interesting information. Thank you. So the corners were noticeably squared down, eventually they are somewhat beaten down after being on the game for only eight hours. I play at a property on the strip, and they don’t change the dice every 8 hours. Obviously they put new dice on a game that is just opened. The continuous day game they have going seems to have the dice on the table for 16 hours, until the next day shift comes on.
Are these dice expensive? What material are they exactly made out of? I personally have never seen dice changed on a live game, and I play A LOT. I would also notice if they changed dice on a game while I was away.
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I dont know how much they cost. At the amounts casinos buy, I'd guess two or three dollars a stick. I believe they are a super hard plastic called cellulose acetate.
Each die has a serial number on it that matches the other 5. It would be easy to look at it and then when you return later, see if it's still the same. If you look very carefully there will usually also be tiny initials on each from the person that inspected and micrometered the dice before being put in play. We do ours on the 3.
ZCore13
Quote: WABJ11Can you ask others what’s the longest they’ve seen dice on a table before being changed? Eight hours seems too short and specific to your casino, but I could be wrong.
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I listed 5 other casinos a few posts earlier.
ZCore13
Why do you think there’s such a discrepancy among places about changing the dice? Things like this would seem to me to be more universally uniform considering it’s an integral part of game protection. But it does seem to vary greatly among casinos on when to change them.
Why do you think that is?
Quote: WABJ11Yes, thank you for that. I was just at a tribal casino and they said they open the game at 9 AM and they never change the dice. I spoke to the shift manager and it was 3 AM and he said they had the same dice on the table the entire day. I thought that was quite interesting. He said it depends on traffic but usually close the game between 1-4am.
Why do you think there’s such a discrepancy among places about changing the dice? Things like this would seem to me to be more universally uniform considering it’s an integral part of game protection. But it does seem to vary greatly among casinos on when to change them.
Why do you think that is?
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Maybe they don't change the dice is because the dice have been very profitable for the casino.
Quote: WABJ11Yes, thank you for that. I was just at a tribal casino and they said they open the game at 9 AM and they never change the dice. I spoke to the shift manager and it was 3 AM and he said they had the same dice on the table the entire day. I thought that was quite interesting. He said it depends on traffic but usually close the game between 1-4am.
Why do you think there’s such a discrepancy among places about changing the dice? Things like this would seem to me to be more universally uniform considering it’s an integral part of game protection. But it does seem to vary greatly among casinos on when to change them.
Why do you think that is?
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They obviously believe it's not an issue for game protection. After 8 hours our dice were still flat on all sides. Corner slightly unhappy, but who's gonna be able to figure out if they are minimally bias and towards what number(s)?
Card changing on poker based table games varies by casino as well. Many change after 2 hours. We change after 4 hours. The last casino I worked at used them all day and night unless they caused a shuffling issue.
ZCore13
Yes, some of this could have happened post-retirement. But think about it for a bit. Every time the die leaves the table, it can bang up against something harder than it is: a chair leg, a slot machine, or a security cart. Some casinos aren't fully carpetted, and there's the dice, skittering across tile or terrazzo, wearing unevenly. Eight hours of that is more than enough to add bias to a die, but how much? Who knows?
Quote: BillHasRetiredWhen I was last in Vegas, I signed up for a players card at the Station chain of casinos, they gave me a pair of used casino dice. Dug them out. They had been used for eight hours and retired. I put them under one of those desk-mounted giant illuminated magnifying glass. The corners are worn, but not uniformly, both intra-die and inter-die. There's a notable gouge along one edge, and there are random scuffs on some but not all faces. These dice are worn, and not evenly along all six faces. I wonder how dice twice as used look.
Yes, some of this could have happened post-retirement. But think about it for a bit. Every time the die leaves the table, it can bang up against something harder than it is: a chair leg, a slot machine, or a security cart. Some casinos aren't fully carpetted, and there's the dice, skittering across tile or terrazzo, wearing unevenly. Eight hours of that is more than enough to add bias to a die, but how much? Who knows?
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If they go off the table they are immediately examined to make sure the actual die/dice get returned and there is no damage that would cause them to be off balance. Sometime you'll see the box person put one between the thumb and first finger and spin it to look for balance. At minimum they will be visually inspected..
I'm not sure how you know those specific dice were used for 8 hours rather than being removed early due to wear?
ZCore13
Station, IIRC, changes dice every 8 hours. I could be wrong. The dice came in a screw-top plastic bottle with sticker proclaiming "These Dice Were Used in Actual Play in This Fabulous Casino" [sic]. They did not seem grossly damaged, therefore I assumed that they were, in fact, used for eight hours and removed from play in the regular rotation.Quote: Zcore13{snip to specific point}
I'm not sure how you know those specific dice were used for 8 hours rather than being removed early due to wear?
ZCore13
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Hey, I really appreciate your specific information regarding precision casino dice. These don't have the tiny initials that your post-calipered dice have, but they do have the letters "SC" under the center pip of the 3 face. They are right-handed dice, red with white pips and a matte finish.
Quote: BillHasRetiredStation, IIRC, changes dice every 8 hours. I could be wrong. The dice came in a screw-top plastic bottle with sticker proclaiming "These Dice Were Used in Actual Play in This Fabulous Casino" [sic]. They did not seem grossly damaged, therefore I assumed that they were, in fact, used for eight hours and removed from play in the regular rotation.Quote: Zcore13{snip to specific point}
I'm not sure how you know those specific dice were used for 8 hours rather than being removed early due to wear?
ZCore13
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Hey, I really appreciate your specific information regarding precision casino dice. These don't have the tiny initials that your post-calipered dice have, but they do have the letters "SC" under the center pip of the 3 face. They are right-handed dice, red with white pips and a matte finish.
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Ok. We hand "scribe" ours each shift. They maybe just use that SC as their scribe. If you look into the dice from each side, you might also find a security feature built in to each one. I believe most places do it through the 4. You might see a logo or letter or number. Or it may have nothing.
ZCore13
It's probably hard to photograph without fancy equipment, but my curiosity would like a look if practical.
The circular 'punch' or cancellation mark is on the 4 side, and also does a good job obscuring the SC too.
