Harley
Harley
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February 3rd, 2013 at 1:03:00 PM permalink
This Board has some really great minds with very good thought provoking ideas .... I was wondering if we could take up a little bandwidth here to brainstorm ideas on how to build a better Dice Balancing Caliper ...... The Industry Standard pictured here is very clumsy and a poor excuse for a caliper



Ahigh has spent great time, effort, money and energy to build a prototype that is 100 times better , seen here in this video at minute 3:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3x27QVPfMd0#t=181s

Quote: Ahigh

Yeah, these are good ideas. I definitely would like to challenge some folks to make some better systems to detect off-balance dice.

Another idea I had was to do create a method to spin the die very fast in a controlled way and look for wobble.

If you're good you can do this with your fingers, but I think you could make a machine to do it with some precision such that if it's off balance it will visibly wobble out of the device at a threshold speed that indicates how far out of balance the die is.

In other words, all dice would eventually find a speed where the CG is far enough off center that it would hop out. But the speed at which that happens tells you HOW balanced the die is.

There is absolutely no market for such a device that I know of. So there's no fear of anybody stealing ideas for profit or money motivation to come up with an idea.

But it could be fun if someone could come up with something.

.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
Harley
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February 3rd, 2013 at 1:13:02 PM permalink
.... some thoughts I received in an email from Linaway:

Quote: Linaway

Harley,

You know I spent many years in a test lab. Anything used on our
aircraft that walked, talked or giggled required testing. If we didn't
have the tester, we had to design and build them.

I recall a number of devices we bought from suppliers for aircraft
components required balance testing and RPM. We used a strobe
light and frequency counter. Sometimes an oscilloscope as well.

For the ultimate dice tester, this is what you need. A small DC
motor with rheostat to control speed and a strobe with counter
to test for dice balance. Any number of holding fixtures could be
conjured up.
...

You see, the Bone Chucker he recently came up with was inspired
by the one I built. My idea but I made it common knowledge when
I gave him a picture of it.

Mine cost 1/10th or less of what his did, mine is much smaller,
mine is far more accurate because it responds to weight and not
finger thumping or spring loaded whackem to launch the dice.

So here it is. The Ultimut Dice Balance Tester if you know somebody
that's ... willing to share monetary proceeds from such a devices use.
Something to think about. You do know
such a device would have limited sales appeal for the market probably
would be small.

Something for you to chew on. Comments please.

Linaway

.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
MrV
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February 3rd, 2013 at 2:22:10 PM permalink
What is the point?

A player surely would never be allowed to use the caliper under live casino conditions.

Casinos don't check all the new dice with a caliper before play, do they?

If not, who cares?

If they do, patent it and sell it.

Otherwise, again, what would it matter?
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
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February 3rd, 2013 at 3:17:34 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

What is the point?

A player surely would never be allowed to use the caliper under live casino conditions.



Thats exactly what I'm was going to write. No
casino will let you whip this out to see if their
dice is balanced. Its like whipping out a level
at the roulette table, its pointless. What you
see is what you get in a casino.

Its like the charts and graphs, just more busy
work to get out of throwing the dice. Throwing
the casinos dice in their casino, thats the name
of the game. Throwing your own perfectly
balanced dice on a table you're completely used
to in your own house is fun, but different than
using casino dice on a casino table.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ahigh
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February 3rd, 2013 at 3:37:52 PM permalink
My point is the only motivation to do this is if you're interested to do it for free. There is absolutely not a market for a device.

Harley does get the prize for being the most interested individual on the subject that I know, regardless of how much he knows, he has the most interest in it.

I'm not that interested myself just because I've spent too much time on this already.
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Ahigh
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February 3rd, 2013 at 3:41:33 PM permalink
As far as what Harley is possibly thinking, if you could characterize a biased outcome specific to each type of dice being manufactured, you could see the wrapper as the dice come out and know how to bet for a long-term win.

But I think the possibility is remote of being able to accomplish that myself.

And even if it's not remote, it's going to be a really boring grind.

Pressing the four and ten is something I have found that would be easier to sink your teeth into and take less time to grind.

That strategy blows away every other strategy I know of. It's just damn boring.

Exploiting any bias you could find from Harley's line of thinking, EVEN WHEN SUCCESSFUL, in my opinion is going to be MORE BORING.

My life is too short for such boring quests. That is why I stopped.

I feel that I at least demonstrated how, for perfectly balanced dice, they can show up as unbalanced to the untrained eye on poor equipment.

And now I am done dealing with people who can't tell when a die is balanced enough not to matter.

The corner wear far eclipses the off-balance nature of well manufactured dice (even the cheapest dice!!!)

And in response to Koga, he heard what he wanted to hear, but I do not believe that he heard what I said on the show about the corner wear being more relevant to biased outcome.

I think corner wear is the bigger deal compared to balance, and the quest for balance is a red herring.
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stoneynv
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February 3rd, 2013 at 3:48:52 PM permalink
Quote: Harley

This Board has some really great minds with very good thought provoking ideas .... I was wondering if we could take up a little bandwidth here to brainstorm ideas on how to build a better Dice Balancing Caliper ...... The Industry Standard pictured here is very clumsy and a poor excuse for a caliper



Ahigh has spent great time, effort, money and energy to build a prototype that is 100 times better , seen here in this video at minute 3:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3x27QVPfMd0#t=181s

Just hand dice to DI's and if their SSR drops below 6.5 the dice are rigged
Ahigh
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February 3rd, 2013 at 8:47:35 PM permalink
I think they call it a SRR, and it's still not a proper description (as it should be RSR). Either way if you're going to make a joke about people being wrong, you at least need to be right yourself before it's really funny.
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Ahigh
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February 4th, 2013 at 2:42:14 AM permalink
Back on subject. I went back to the Wynn this morning. Three trips to the Wynn this week. With SuperBowl weekend there was tons of big action. I got to see some really great stuff, and noticed a few things:

* I saw what looked like Alibaba dice on one of the tables. -- I can't be sure, but it looked like them to me!

* I noticed a player grinding the dice in his palm before shooting. I have never seen or heard of this before, but the same player was also throwing and slamming the dice into the mirror as well. I verbalized about squeezing the shit out of the dice to see if Don (the boxman at the table) would care what he was doing to the dice .. as it seemed intentional to me .. and he did not even bother to look at him when he picked up the dice.

* I saw the Wynn personnel getting emotional over losses, which was something I never noticed there before. I saw some don't betters winning on the table that it looked like had the Alibaba dice on it.

I honestly don't believe the "cheep dice" as RuperSick called them were to blame. They just looked like those dice, but I still believe the Wynn only uses dice made in Mexico by GPIC. But who knows what is going on these days!

I need a good way to know for sure how to tell the chinese dice apart from the mexican dice.

I don't think any dice are made in the USA, FWIW.

But the details of this is something that if it's going to be followed up on, it's going to take some help from somebody because I'm just out of energy for that crap.

I can already tell you that betting the don't would be the way to go with heavy 6/1 though. That much is obvious.

I did counts in the casino for heavy 6/1 and generally didn't see it anywhere. I think it's just as likely if not more likely that my throw was off as I am normally light on the 6/1. I could have a variation to my throw that reverses the polarity of my throw bias. I just don't know enough to have the answers for everything yet.

Randomness is the best answer so far for everything, even if it's remote, it could just all be randomness!
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EvenBob
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February 4th, 2013 at 6:46:22 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

* I saw the Wynn personnel getting emotional over losses,
!



Like how. Who, the dealers or the pit. What were they
doing to express this emotion. I've never seen them get
emtional about anything at the Wynn. How much
money was involved.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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February 4th, 2013 at 7:36:56 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I could have a variation to my throw that reverses the polarity of my throw bias.



Huh?

"Polarity?"

You're making this stuff up as you go along, right?
"What, me worry?"
FleaStiff
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February 4th, 2013 at 8:01:46 AM permalink
Expensive calipers?
I once say a cheapie compass, almost a toy, being used at a craps table. It was not some Olympic quality compass or expensive hiking gear, but the Pit Boss walked around the table with it whenever someone with electronic gear wandered by.

Expensive calipers to prove a die is true? All you need to do is look at the serial numbers. If no one has switched new dice in to the game, those original five dice are the truest you will ever have there.
Harley
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February 4th, 2013 at 12:35:41 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

... Expensive calipers to prove a die is true? All you need to do is look at the serial numbers. If no one has switched new dice in to the game, those original five dice are the truest you will ever have there.


WRONG ... FAIL

Quote: MrV

What is the point?



Why would you spend $80,000. on a Corvette plus $2,400. per tire without spending $20. to balance your tires

Try investing $220. inside with balanced dice vs. unbalanced dice .... which would you rather play with ??!!

Try investing that same $220. inside (or whatever your betting preference is) on a craps table in Colorado vs. a craps table in Las vegas on a Saturday night before the Super Bowl

What is the point you ask ..... I will try to answer that after I go take Carmen ...
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
Harley
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March 2nd, 2013 at 11:38:42 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

Regarding Calipers:

They don't always work as they should. You will get false positives because the corners of the dice are easily damaged. Calipers are just about worthless in many dice related situations.



AMEN Keyser !!

that's why we need a better caliper ... but until we get one, we have drafted a "BALANCING DICE FOR DUMMIES" guidelines that is being sent to every State Gaming Commission, every casino, Bill Zender and every Casino consultant we can find to help educate them on how to use a caliper .....

The draft can be found here:
http://www.littlejoecraps.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=209&sid=126aaf6823d51058c7398604870c372e
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
Ahigh
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March 4th, 2013 at 9:24:39 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I don't think any dice are made in the USA, FWIW.



Here are "The only Casino Quality Dice manufactured in U.S.A."

http://midwestgamesupply.com/dice.htm

I don't know that the suspicious dice used at the Gold Coast are in fact Midwest Gaming dice, but here's what I do know:

There are 6 dice to a stick instead of 5 (a bit unusual).

The pips look like pips on 19mm dice instead of pips on 0.75" dice.

The wrapper around the dice they brought out that said "Midwest Gaming" on them looked used. IE: it appeared that the wrapper being used was intended to cover up the fact that they are possibly using 19mm dice. The wrapper had creases that indicated it had previously been used on a stick of FIVE dice, not six.

It was quite comical, and it was all I could do not to say something to Carl about it at the time the table was being opened up.
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Harley
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March 6th, 2013 at 7:02:00 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I'm moving the Ustream videos over to You Tube. One of the more interesting results from the show is how some Paulson branded dice from GPIC looked in my balancer on a show when I was looking for biased dice preceding recording rolls before a show.

http://youtu.be/YNZc4M3yuSk?t=7m21s

The link above goes to the part where I look at two dice out of a brand new stick of dice from Paulson. These are uncancelled dice that mic properly, and are brand new never used. I actually have three cases of these dice, and it's these dice that turned up as producing the 6-1 seven-outs from the previous show, which is why I was balancing these dice prior to this show to avoid the controversy with biased dice.

As far as sharing face results from dice that are observed in the casino, I have no plans to do this. Everything that I am doing takes so much time that I just only have so much time to devote to this stuff. I'm not averse to sharing my own data, but I'm not sharing Harley's data. He's giving me data from the casino and I'm working with him on trying to match strategies to his observations.

But if casinos don't want to look at die balance and leave themselves exposed, I guess that's how it will be for now. This is absolutely evidence that imbalanced dice are out there. I have no idea if this amount of imbalance is detectable from other balance devices, but I doubt it. The $40 calipers are pretty poor in quality and are difficult to use and read, and more often give you misreads.



AMEN AHigh !!
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
RaleighCraps
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March 7th, 2013 at 6:29:16 AM permalink
A question for the physics experts.

If you were to submerge a die in a liquid whose viscosity was just enough to cause the die to rise to the surface of the liquid, but not rise above the surface, would the heaviest part of the die eventually revolve to become the bottom of the suspended die?
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P90
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March 7th, 2013 at 10:03:05 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

If you were to submerge a die in a liquid whose viscosity was just enough to cause the die to rise to the surface of the liquid, but not rise above the surface, would the heaviest part of the die eventually revolve to become the bottom of the suspended die?


No, for two reasons.

1. Weight imbalance in dice is primarily caused by volume imbalance. Since you've put the dice in liquid, its weight is compensated by volumetric displacement, so any volume imbalance except for closed-cell cavities would be undetectable.

2. A dice floating right by the surface is a stable system, so it won't rotate; to do so would require energy. To understand why, imagine the die was a little heavier and was lying flat on the bottom.
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MathExtremist
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March 7th, 2013 at 11:25:11 AM permalink
Quote: P90

No, for two reasons.

1. Weight imbalance in dice is primarily caused by volume imbalance. Since you've put the dice in liquid, its weight is compensated by volumetric displacement, so any volume imbalance except for closed-cell cavities would be undetectable.

2. A dice floating right by the surface is a stable system, so it won't rotate; to do so would require energy. To understand why, imagine the die was a little heavier and was lying flat on the bottom.


That doesn't seem right to me. If you place a die into a liquid of slightly greater density, it will float and part of the die will be out of the liquid. If the center of mass is exactly in the center of the die, it will not rotate regardless of how you place it in the liquid. If the center of mass is not in the center of the die (that is, it's imbalanced), the die should rotate so the heavy side is downward.

An appropriate mixture of corn syrup and water should float an acrylic die. The density of acrylic is ~1.2 g/ml, while corn syrup is denser and water is less dense. Since corn syrup is water soluble, you should be able to mix in a bit of water at a time to some corn syrup until the die floats well.
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Ahigh
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March 7th, 2013 at 11:49:21 AM permalink
Fine tuning could possibly be done with air pressure or by heating and/or cooling the liquid to tune the system out.

But I don't know if the density of corn syrup is as high as the density of a casino die.

However, I'd like to point out that my balance works better than any other balance that I know of, and yet nobody cares about the details of whether a die is balanced or not, in general, except for Harley.

It's a fact that every die is biased towards specific outcomes. The only debates are:

1) Is it enough to matter to the casinos revenue on the long term at all? (can the bias overcome any edges on any bets on the felt, or add to the bias against the player to make the losses more than should be expected?)
2) Are the casinos using biased dice to their own advantage (EG: equally more likely chance to get 6's and 1's than other faces for a given stick of dice, or some other bias that benefits the casino)
3) Should there be more laws relating to the details of how dice are monitored for fairness

There should be ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION THAT EVERY SINGLE DIE EVER MANUFACTURED HAS BIAS. We are only arguing about to what degree the bias exists and whether or not it matters, and if it matters what the casino is doing, if anything, to use the bias to their own advantage.
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P90
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March 8th, 2013 at 3:13:17 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

That doesn't seem right to me. If you place a die into a liquid of slightly greater density, it will float and part of the die will be out of the liquid. If the center of mass is exactly in the center of the die, it will not rotate regardless of how you place it in the liquid. If the center of mass is not in the center of the die (that is, it's imbalanced), the die should rotate so the heavy side is downward.


RaleighCraps suggested just enough density to rise to the surface, but not break surface tension. At that density, the die will not be able to float out of the water, so it can only rotate by floating down. Even if there was a small force trying to cause that, the system is stable enough that it's not going to move in clear water.

A more dense liquid where the die does float up out of the water could actually provide some useful result, though it wouldn't be reliable.
But both of these are only applicable if weight imbalance is caused by density imbalance, rather than volume imbalance. I suspect the real case is virtually always the latter. Volume imbalance will be made irrelevant by immersion.
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FleaStiff
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March 8th, 2013 at 4:28:11 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Expensive calipers to prove a die is true? All you need to do is look at the serial numbers. If no one has switched new dice in to the game, those original five dice are the truest you will ever have there.

Unless you intend to switch in your own new and improved dice that are well balanced, but if so, be prepared to go to jail rather than standing there arguing about better dice.
P90
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March 8th, 2013 at 4:42:38 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Unless you intend to switch in your own new and improved dice that are well balanced, but if so, be prepared to go to jail rather than standing there arguing about better dice.


Mens rea and MPC canceled in Nevada?

Out the door at least is given of course.
Still, that's clearly not the purpose.
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FleaStiff
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March 8th, 2013 at 5:55:07 AM permalink
What I was trying to point out was that your inquiry into calipers and other devices that might be used to analyze some "perfect dice" are of absolutely no value in the real world of a craps game. The casino lists the serial number of five dice and thats it. No statistics you develop with perfect dice will affect a real game. All casinos consider professionally acquired dice to be "good enough for government work". No dice that float to the top of your perfect liquid and display perfect qualities will ever be adopted by a casino.
Harley
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March 8th, 2013 at 8:30:52 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

What I was trying to point out was that your inquiry into calipers and other devices that might be used to analyze some "perfect dice" are of absolutely no value in the real world of a craps game. The casino lists the serial number of five dice and thats it. ... .



FleaStiff - if your statement has any half truth to it, then why does Colorado have a law as follows:

Quote:

47.1-1281 DICE; RECEIPT; STORAGE; INSPECTIONS AND REMOVAL FROM USE

(4)
(A) PRIOR TO USE IN A GAME, THE MANAGER ON DUTY OR PIT SUPERVISOR SHALL INSPECT THE DICE WITH A MICROMETER, BALANCING CALIPER, A STEEL SET SQUARE AND A MAGNET OR ANY OTHER INSTRUMENT APPROVED BY THE DIVISION. A BALANCING CALIPER, A STEEL SET SQUARE AND A MAGNET, SHALL BE KEPT IN A COMPARTMENT AT EACH CRAPS TABLE OR PIT STAND AND SHALL BE AT ALL TIMES READILY AVAILABLE FOR USE BY THE DIVISION UPON REQUEST.

(5) THE LICENSEE SHALL REMOVE ANY DICE FROM USE ANY TIME THERE IS ANY INDICATION OF TAMPERING, FLAWS OR OTHER DEFECTS THAT MIGHT AFFECT THE INTEGRITY OR FAIRNESS OF THE GAME, OR AT THE REQUEST OF THE DIVISION.

.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
TheWolf713
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March 8th, 2013 at 8:37:20 PM permalink
So we're trying to use the words "casino" and "fair" in the same sentence.. We've put the dice in high end calipers, yet the NGC uses one from the 50s... You have also spoke of the buoyancy of the dice in water (water guys.. Specific Gravity.... Really?)

Talk about driving off a cliff..

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Ahigh
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March 8th, 2013 at 9:03:05 PM permalink
A quick test reveals that Corn Syrup is indeed more dense than the material of the dice I tested.

I have not attempted to dilute corn syrup to achieve a die that is suspended in the middle, but the high viscosity of corn syrup is an issue. But who knows? It may end up being a helpful issue as it slows the process of the die moving around, which makes it easier to see what it is doing.

If the average density of the holes filled with resin where the pips are is different enough from the rest of the die, I think we will be able to see it from the orientation that the die prefers as it suspends itself in the middle of the corn syrup.

If the bias is coming from missing material on the corners, it won't show up.

It's possible that glycerine or some other liquid might be less viscous and a better match for matching the density of some of these cubes.

http://physics.info/density/

If you create a closed system with no bubbles like a small jar with an air-tight lid with no bubbles you can rotate the jar slowly enough back and forth to see which side is lighter if any.
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Ahigh
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March 8th, 2013 at 11:02:52 PM permalink
I diluted the corn syrup just the right amount to get dice to float in the middle sinking slowly enough to barely be noticeable. Then using a knife, I rotate the die in place and I have yet to find anything besides a clinging air bubble to affect which side wants to go up.

This is absolutely an experiment that anyone can replicate.

As someone points out, this only will detect density differences in the cube. So if the pips have bubbles in them or if the pip resin is more or less dense than the rest of the cube, that will show up.

But if a corner is shaved off, or if the measurements are different, that won't show up.

So far absolutely no evidence of pips that are the wrong density (or bubbles in the pips, etc).

My die balance has a couple of issues, but I had already gone through the process of determining that dice are not as unbalanced as some people (such as Koga Ninja, and even Harley) have inferred them to be from the use of those $40 balance devices out there.

I am still of the opinion that it's possible we're seeing more six faces and one faces from something else. And I have only tested 3 cubes in corn syrup so far. I will improve the corn syrup test a little more as the days go by and see if I can find anything that looks wrong, but so far nothing.
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