ChallengedMilly
• Posts: 291
Joined: Jul 25, 2021
September 4th, 2022 at 6:21:20 AM permalink
Going to the casinos this week and plan on bringing about \$2500 for some craps shooting. I've been successful with various basic dark side strategies so far, but this trip I wanted to try something different. Does anyone have any particularly interesting, novel, or outlandish dark side strats they'd like for me to try?
OnceDear
• Posts: 7496
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
Thanked by
September 4th, 2022 at 6:34:30 AM permalink
I can't recommend any strategies, but have fun and I look forward to reading your trip report.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
AlanMendelson
• Posts: 5937
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
September 4th, 2022 at 6:37:06 AM permalink
Quote: ChallengedMilly

Going to the casinos this week and plan on bringing about \$2500 for some craps shooting. I've been successful with various basic dark side strategies so far, but this trip I wanted to try something different. Does anyone have any particularly interesting, novel, or outlandish dark side strats they'd like for me to try?

Yes. Find a table with only dark side players and be the shooter.

Then report back.

Why is it most dark siders don't shoot?
tuttigym
• Posts: 1981
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
September 4th, 2022 at 8:56:18 AM permalink
Quote: ChallengedMilly

Going to the casinos this week and plan on bringing about \$2500 for some craps shooting. I've been successful with various basic dark side strategies so far, but this trip I wanted to try something different. Does anyone have any particularly interesting, novel, or outlandish dark side strats they'd like for me to try?

\$10 table: DP = \$10 + \$18 odds + \$15 on the hard number point, i.e., 4, 6, 8, or 10. Results: 7 out = net \$10 win; soft point winner = \$28 loss or hard number point winner = \$122 win including bring down the hard number bet.

The last three times I played, I hit the hard point winner.

tuttigym
Last edited by: tuttigym on Sep 4, 2022
Vegasrider
• Posts: 963
Joined: Dec 23, 2017
September 4th, 2022 at 9:43:27 AM permalink
I'm a Darkside player, and my buy ins range from \$1500-2000 per session. I simply play one number buying full odds. So if I start off at \$20, I'm putting down another \$120 behind the number and that's it. Why one number, If I play another number, I'm no longer the favorite. There are more combinations that can be rolled that can beat me. Very boring and kind of a grind, but I put in long sessions. If I lose, I place the same bet, Now if 2 points are rolled, I will double my bet by betting \$40. If I win I go back to my initial bet. I generally don't double my bets until I lost two of the same bets. Long story short, I'm hoping for many 7 outs w/o any points. It's streaky in both ways. If a shooter rolls 5 points, I will pretty much lose my buy in unless I build up my initial buy-in up to withstand up to 6 points. So my question, what are the odds a shooter will roll 5 or 6 points? My strategy is betting against that number.

To help kill the boredom I keep track of how many rolls the shooter has rolled, how many points they have rolled or if they 7 out right away. I also keep track of what numbers has rolled so I have a live visual graph of the frequencies for each number. It helps visualize how the table is going. Favoring the P or DP.
charliepatrick
• Posts: 2997
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
September 4th, 2022 at 10:00:33 AM permalink
Personally I make DP then two DCs. Hopefully there are three numbers and the 7 comes right out. The best result is missing all three. The worst is taking sometime to establish three different numbers.

If I'm trying to stay a while I'll only make a DC, that way I can catch a 7 on a come out as well as the 7-out.
odiousgambit
• Posts: 9691
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
September 4th, 2022 at 10:31:46 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: ChallengedMilly

Going to the casinos this week and plan on bringing about \$2500 for some craps shooting. I've been successful with various basic dark side strategies so far, but this trip I wanted to try something different. Does anyone have any particularly interesting, novel, or outlandish dark side strats they'd like for me to try?

Yes. Find a table with only dark side players and be the shooter.

Then report back.

A table with only Darksiders would be great!

Quote:

Why is it most dark siders don't shoot?

Real Craps Players know the answer to that one. If you roll a 7-out [a Darkside winner] the dealers take the dice from you and give it to the next guy. But if you remain the shooter, it's because you are killing yourself by hitting the points Rightside winner, Darkside loser, and Lo the dice keep coming right back to you again and again.

If the whole table was Darksiders we could agree to pass the dice back to the guy who is a good shooter our style!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Vegasrider
• Posts: 963
Joined: Dec 23, 2017
September 4th, 2022 at 10:45:47 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Personally I make DP then two DCs. Hopefully there are three numbers and the 7 comes right out. The best result is missing all three. The worst is taking sometime to establish three different numbers.

If I'm trying to stay a while I'll only make a DC, that way I can catch a 7 on a come out as well as the 7-out.

I use to play that way, playing with multiple numbers. Laying six times behind the number gets damn expensive and again, there will be more combinations to roll to beat you. I’d rather bet big and remain the favorite. Plus you are really risking your bet putting your bet back on the DC. Once I survive that roll, I don’t want to risk doing it again.

Another strategy I’ve used is stop playing once 2 pts are rolled and just wait until a 7 out and start over again. That way you are not risking playing the opposite side when a shooter going to roll 4-6 points
odiousgambit
• Posts: 9691
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
September 4th, 2022 at 10:53:34 AM permalink
As for a good strategy, avoid some mistakes.

* The biggest one I ever made was thinking it was good to pile up points to resolve. As a Rightsider I would realize a 3 point Molly was the most you should go, otherwise you're putting too much in action. But at the same table, I felt it was good to go even more, and constantly make DP/DC bets to get there. It's an illusion that it's a good idea! It's putting too much in action!

* I'm going to get disagreement possibly, but just because you can go with a higher free odds bet Darkside than you can Rightside doesn't mean you have to! At 3x4x5x in particular this can lead to that kind of thinking. Don't go any higher than you would Rightside approximately. I've recently discovered the HE and the Variance both are lower.

* If the shooter is right next to you, play the DC. That might mollify them a bit, but you'll probably notice they don't like it. On the East Coast nobody will probably say anything, but I did have that happen in Indiana. You have to be ready for it. If you enjoy the group spirit thing, it's going to be gone. But you knew that.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
ChallengedMilly
• Posts: 291
Joined: Jul 25, 2021
September 4th, 2022 at 11:03:34 AM permalink
Alan, I do it because I'm new to craps and understand that playing dark side is frowned upon by most players even though it is ultimately fighting against the casino more than any particular player that is shooting. I have shot from the dark when I had a table all to myself(and ironically threw 33 rolls in a row from the dark... yeah I lost a lot on that lol!) In general though if you're playing dark it seems to get you less negative stares and shittalk at the table if you pass.
100xOdds
• Posts: 4442
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
September 4th, 2022 at 11:06:47 AM permalink
Quote: ChallengedMilly

Going to the casinos this week and plan on bringing about \$2500 for some craps shooting. I've been successful with various basic dark side strategies so far, but this trip I wanted to try something different. Does anyone have any particularly interesting, novel, or outlandish dark side strats they'd like for me to try?

min bet, max odds and press:
- if you win twice in a row, press every win thereafter by 1/3.
so \$15,15,20,25,30.40,50, 70, 100 (yeah, i know 65 and 85 but keep it dealer friendly)

Winning @ \$15 twice pays for your \$20 bet.
rinse/repeat

i've reached the \$100 mark a few times over the years by never won :(
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
ChallengedMilly
• Posts: 291
Joined: Jul 25, 2021
September 4th, 2022 at 11:09:09 AM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Quote: ChallengedMilly

Going to the casinos this week and plan on bringing about \$2500 for some craps shooting. I've been successful with various basic dark side strategies so far, but this trip I wanted to try something different. Does anyone have any particularly interesting, novel, or outlandish dark side strats they'd like for me to try?

\$10 table: DP = \$10 + \$18 odds + \$15 on the hard number point, i.e., 4, 6, 8, or 10. Results: 7 out = net \$10 win; soft point winner = \$28 loss or hard number point winner = \$122 win including bring down the hard number bet.

The last three times I played, I hit the hard point winner.

tuttigym

Are you saying to go across on the light side while hedging your DP with odds?
100xOdds
• Posts: 4442
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
September 4th, 2022 at 11:09:50 AM permalink
Quote: ChallengedMilly

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: ChallengedMilly

Going to the casinos this week and plan on bringing about \$2500 for some craps shooting. I've been successful with various basic dark side strategies so far, but this trip I wanted to try something different. Does anyone have any particularly interesting, novel, or outlandish dark side strats they'd like for me to try?

\$10 table: DP = \$10 + \$18 odds + \$15 on the hard number point, i.e., 4, 6, 8, or 10. Results: 7 out = net \$10 win; soft point winner = \$28 loss or hard number point winner = \$122 win including bring down the hard number bet.

The last three times I played, I hit the hard point winner.

tuttigym

Are you saying to go across on the light side while hedging your DP with odds?

-Wizard
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
ChallengedMilly
• Posts: 291
Joined: Jul 25, 2021
September 4th, 2022 at 11:35:35 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

I'm a Darkside player, and my buy ins range from \$1500-2000 per session. I simply play one number buying full odds. So if I start off at \$20, I'm putting down another \$120 behind the number and that's it. Why one number, If I play another number, I'm no longer the favorite. There are more combinations that can be rolled that can beat me. Very boring and kind of a grind, but I put in long sessions. If I lose, I place the same bet, Now if 2 points are rolled, I will double my bet by betting \$40. If I win I go back to my initial bet. I generally don't double my bets until I lost two of the same bets. Long story short, I'm hoping for many 7 outs w/o any points. It's streaky in both ways. If a shooter rolls 5 points, I will pretty much lose my buy in unless I build up my initial buy-in up to withstand up to 6 points. So my question, what are the odds a shooter will roll 5 or 6 points? My strategy is betting against that number.

To help kill the boredom I keep track of how many rolls the shooter has rolled, how many points they have rolled or if they 7 out right away. I also keep track of what numbers has rolled so I have a live visual graph of the frequencies for each number. It helps visualize how the table is going. Favoring the P or DP.

This is kind of how I played last time and 4x my initial bankroll doing so on a cold and choppy table. Looking for something less passive this time around.
ChumpChange
• Posts: 5019
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
September 4th, 2022 at 2:21:49 PM permalink
I'd break it up into \$300 sessions and buy-in for ten \$30 bets and see if I can run a PL or DP progression of \$30, \$40, \$50, \$60, \$80, \$100, \$60, \$80, \$100, stay at \$100 until a loss. \$25 tables may have space that \$15 tables don't. Cut that in half for a \$15 table and more shooters who may or may not suck. Each session may only last 30-90 minutes, and the win goal is a simple doubling of the buy-in or higher. Six wins in a row pays 10X the base bet; 9 wins and down, or 10 wins and continuing pays 20X the base bet.
I'd bring 3-4 buy-ins for 3-6 hours of play.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Sep 4, 2022
unJon

• Posts: 4700
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
September 4th, 2022 at 3:23:54 PM permalink
Quote: ChallengedMilly

Quote: Vegasrider

I'm a Darkside player, and my buy ins range from \$1500-2000 per session. I simply play one number buying full odds. So if I start off at \$20, I'm putting down another \$120 behind the number and that's it. Why one number, If I play another number, I'm no longer the favorite. There are more combinations that can be rolled that can beat me. Very boring and kind of a grind, but I put in long sessions. If I lose, I place the same bet, Now if 2 points are rolled, I will double my bet by betting \$40. If I win I go back to my initial bet. I generally don't double my bets until I lost two of the same bets. Long story short, I'm hoping for many 7 outs w/o any points. It's streaky in both ways. If a shooter rolls 5 points, I will pretty much lose my buy in unless I build up my initial buy-in up to withstand up to 6 points. So my question, what are the odds a shooter will roll 5 or 6 points? My strategy is betting against that number.

To help kill the boredom I keep track of how many rolls the shooter has rolled, how many points they have rolled or if they 7 out right away. I also keep track of what numbers has rolled so I have a live visual graph of the frequencies for each number. It helps visualize how the table is going. Favoring the P or DP.

This is kind of how I played last time and 4x my initial bankroll doing so on a cold and choppy table. Looking for something less passive this time around.

Why don’t you three point dolly?
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
ChallengedMilly
• Posts: 291
Joined: Jul 25, 2021
September 4th, 2022 at 4:19:53 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

I'd break it up into \$300 sessions and buy-in for ten \$30 bets and see if I can run a PL or DP progression of \$30, \$40, \$50, \$60, \$80, \$100, \$60, \$80, \$100, stay at \$100 until a loss. \$25 tables may have space that \$15 tables don't. Cut that in half for a \$15 table and more shooters who may or may not suck. Each session may only last 30-90 minutes, and the win goal is a simple doubling of the buy-in or higher. Six wins in a row pays 10X the base bet; 9 wins and down, or 10 wins and continuing pays 20X the base bet.
I'd bring 3-4 buy-ins for 3-6 hours of play.

Sort of did that with my baccarat gamble last year but I found that it made my blood pressure go sky high. Will definitely try this with one \$300 chunk and report back! Likely do this on my first run at the table in the hopes the pitboss sees a decently large wager and rates me higher for comp value(i know this is less likely now a days but can't hurt to try.)
ChallengedMilly
• Posts: 291
Joined: Jul 25, 2021
September 4th, 2022 at 4:19:57 PM permalink

Why don’t you three point dolly?

Three point Dolly could be interesting yeah, was watching the ColorUp guy on youtube talk about it.
tuttigym
• Posts: 1981
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
September 5th, 2022 at 12:52:39 PM permalink
Quote: ChallengedMilly

Alan, I do it because I'm new to craps and understand that playing dark side is frowned upon by most players even though it is ultimately fighting against the casino more than any particular player that is shooting. I have shot from the dark when I had a table all to myself(and ironically threw 33 rolls in a row from the dark... yeah I lost a lot on that lol!) In general though if you're playing dark it seems to get you less negative stares and shittalk at the table if you pass.

Being an old, short, fat, dumpy dude, I never concern myself with what others feel about me or my play. Just look straight ahead and enjoy.

tuttigym
ChallengedMilly
• Posts: 291
Joined: Jul 25, 2021
September 8th, 2022 at 5:17:50 AM permalink
So far up \$800 using a progression dark side strategy, hedging a lay against the come out 7s. Essentially every roll I'm adding 1x, 2x, or 3x to the lay while maximizing odds. Biggest loss was \$240, biggest win in the \$500s. Ironically i bet against myself on that \$240 loss... ended up making 9 and come out 7/11 points in a row... yup. Come out 7, then point 9, then 9 again, then 11, then point 4(and I did the classic "oh shit let's martingale this lay on 4...") yup point 4. The \$500 win was a sweat against a shooter that had done back to back 20+ rolls, but he couldn't hit his point to save his life.

This casino allows place to lose bets, but I'm assuming those are worse than just laying correct? In terms of payout. Vig only on wins.
ChumpChange
• Posts: 5019
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
September 8th, 2022 at 5:27:14 AM permalink
On bubble craps there's place to lose bets, but I've been assured that since it's vig after a win, it's only advantageous over laying the 6 or 8.
unJon

• Posts: 4700
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
September 8th, 2022 at 8:17:07 AM permalink
Quote: ChallengedMilly

So far up \$800 using a progression dark side strategy, hedging a lay against the come out 7s. Essentially every roll I'm adding 1x, 2x, or 3x to the lay while maximizing odds. Biggest loss was \$240, biggest win in the \$500s. Ironically i bet against myself on that \$240 loss... ended up making 9 and come out 7/11 points in a row... yup. Come out 7, then point 9, then 9 again, then 11, then point 4(and I did the classic "oh shit let's martingale this lay on 4...") yup point 4. The \$500 win was a sweat against a shooter that had done back to back 20+ rolls, but he couldn't hit his point to save his life.

This casino allows place to lose bets, but I'm assuming those are worse than just laying correct? In terms of payout. Vig only on wins.

If the place to lose bets work as described on the wizard of odds site (https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/) and comparing it to the lay bets with commission paid on win only:

House edge per bet resolved
6/8
Lay: 2.27%
PTL: 1.82%

5/9
Lay: 2.00%
PTL: 2.5%

4/10
Lay: 1.67%
PTL: 3.03%

So better to place to lose the 6/8 and lay the others. Though better house edge wise to don’t pass and don’t come with odds!
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
pwcrabb
• Posts: 185
Joined: May 15, 2010
September 11th, 2022 at 11:51:43 AM permalink
Dark Side play per Panos Andreas

Bet DP, get Point, and then Lay large Odds for only one roll. Calculate the net amount that a winning DP with Odds would return. Bet large DC for that net amount. If Red occurs next roll then DP win equals DC loss.

If instead large DC bet travels to behind separate Point then remove DP Odds Laid against Line Point. Now no Odds are Laid against either Point. Advantage for Darkside Player on both bets, one of which is large. No dilution of advantages. Few targets for mishaps. Enjoy both advantages and await results.

Example \$15 DP Comeout Point 9. Lay \$90 against 9 for total possible net win of \$60 plus \$15. Bet \$75 DC, get Point 6. Remove Lay Odds against Point 9. No more bets.
"I suppose I was mad. Every great genius is mad upon the subject in which he is greatest. The unsuccessful madman is disgraced and called a lunatic." Fitz-James O'Brien, The Diamond Lens (1858)
odiousgambit
• Posts: 9691
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
September 11th, 2022 at 2:19:05 PM permalink
Quote: pwcrabb

Dark Side play per Panos Andreas

Bet DP, get Point, and then Lay large Odds for only one roll. Calculate the net amount that a winning DP with Odds would return. Bet large DC for that net amount. If Red occurs next roll then DP win equals DC loss.

If instead large DC bet travels to behind separate Point then remove DP Odds Laid against Line Point. Now no Odds are Laid against either Point. Advantage for Darkside Player on both bets, one of which is large. No dilution of advantages. Few targets for mishaps. Enjoy both advantages and await results.

Example \$15 DP Comeout Point 9. Lay \$90 against 9 for total possible net win of \$60 plus \$15. Bet \$75 DC, get Point 6. Remove Lay Odds against Point 9. No more bets.