MGM No Vig Up Front
April 17th, 2022 at 4:40:02 AM
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All the MGM properties have finally changed to no charge on vig/juice up front for craps buys and lay bets. They only charge AFTER the win. This reduces the house edge by half and is a big deal.
There has been some confusion on day shift at Park MGM (my casino) where they will charge up front except 4/10. Swing shift won’t charge up front at all. I asked the shift manager on swing to talk to day shift, and he said he did and they are going to fix it.
But this makes their Craps Buys and Lay bets the most competitive on the strip, let alone definitely in all of Vegas. Charging the vig after the win reduces the house edge by slightly more than half.
There has been some confusion on day shift at Park MGM (my casino) where they will charge up front except 4/10. Swing shift won’t charge up front at all. I asked the shift manager on swing to talk to day shift, and he said he did and they are going to fix it.
But this makes their Craps Buys and Lay bets the most competitive on the strip, let alone definitely in all of Vegas. Charging the vig after the win reduces the house edge by slightly more than half.
April 17th, 2022 at 6:53:15 AM
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That is HUGE!
I normally place the inside numbers.
If this rule is still in place when I visit in June, I will definitely switch to the outside. 👍 (Unless I’m mistaken, mathematically, 6/8 place bets are still better than buying them with a late vig, but worse than the late vig 4/10.)
Of course, two months is plenty of time for the bean counters to make some noise and get the rule reversed. 🤯
Is there a minimum bet for this?
I normally place the inside numbers.
If this rule is still in place when I visit in June, I will definitely switch to the outside. 👍 (Unless I’m mistaken, mathematically, 6/8 place bets are still better than buying them with a late vig, but worse than the late vig 4/10.)
Of course, two months is plenty of time for the bean counters to make some noise and get the rule reversed. 🤯
Is there a minimum bet for this?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 17th, 2022 at 7:14:28 AM
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It’s a new rule they just rolled out so I doubt they’ll be rolling it back. I think if anything they’ll keep it as people won’t lose as quickly. I had wondered too if buying the 6/8 was worth it when you pay the juice after? I don’t know for certain.
April 17th, 2022 at 7:34:06 AM
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Clarify: suppose I buy the 10 for $100 under the "only pay commission on the win" rule and it wins. What do I get back - my original $100 plus $190 ($200 minus 5%), which is $290, or 95% of the whole $300, which is $285? And I assume the original rule was, I had to bet $105 against the casino's $200.
April 17th, 2022 at 7:48:08 AM
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Quote: ThatDonGuyClarify: suppose I buy the 10 for $100 under the "only pay commission on the win" rule and it wins. What do I get back - my original $100 plus $190 ($200 minus 5%), which is $290, or 95% of the whole $300, which is $285? And I assume the original rule was, I had to bet $105 against the casino's $200.
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Don’t quote me on this because I am a lay bettor. But I believe it’s 5% of the commission of the flat bet when you Buy. There after you roll a 10, you’d be paid $195 in winnings, unless you wanted to take it down, you’d get $295 total.
April 17th, 2022 at 9:08:13 AM
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This is very important to me because I typically lay a remaining box number when only one is needed for the Bonus Craps (All, Tall, Small) bets.
At Red Rock and Suncoast a $60 lay on 5, 6, 8, 9 would be $2 and a $50 lay on 4, 10 would be $1.
My first question: any change with their Bonus craps bets?
At Red Rock and Suncoast a $60 lay on 5, 6, 8, 9 would be $2 and a $50 lay on 4, 10 would be $1.
My first question: any change with their Bonus craps bets?
April 17th, 2022 at 9:15:48 AM
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When the commission is charged on win only, you never wager the commission amount...it's deducted from the win amount. So if you wager $100 on 4/10 and win then you collect your $100 plus $195 net winnings ($200 minus the $5 commission). If you lose then you lose your $100
Inverse for lay bets. You'd wager $200 to win $95. Same edge of 5/300 = 1.67%
This change makes the buying the 5/9 a much better deal (2%) than placing it (4%), and puts 5/9 in the range of buying the 4/10 (commission on win only, 1.67%) and placing the 6/8 (1.52%). It's still cheaper to place the 6/8 than to buy it
Not that I'd ever make a buy, lay or place bet. All of those edges are still six or seven times the edge of betting don't pass with 3/4/5 odds, so I'll stick with the don't
Caesars should one-up MGM by charging the commission on 6/8 on a hard 6/8 win only. That would bring the buy 6/8 edge to 0.45% and there would be no reason to place any number. Even I would make this bet occasionally
Inverse for lay bets. You'd wager $200 to win $95. Same edge of 5/300 = 1.67%
This change makes the buying the 5/9 a much better deal (2%) than placing it (4%), and puts 5/9 in the range of buying the 4/10 (commission on win only, 1.67%) and placing the 6/8 (1.52%). It's still cheaper to place the 6/8 than to buy it
Not that I'd ever make a buy, lay or place bet. All of those edges are still six or seven times the edge of betting don't pass with 3/4/5 odds, so I'll stick with the don't
Caesars should one-up MGM by charging the commission on 6/8 on a hard 6/8 win only. That would bring the buy 6/8 edge to 0.45% and there would be no reason to place any number. Even I would make this bet occasionally
Last edited by: Ace2 on Apr 17, 2022
It’s all about making that GTA
April 17th, 2022 at 10:07:13 AM
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Quote: Ace2When the commission is charged on win only, you never wager the commission amount...it's deducted from the win amount. So if you wager $100 on 4/10 and win then you collect your $100 plus $195 net winnings ($200 minus the $5 commission). If you lose then you lose your $100
So the commission is 5% of the original bet, but it's only paid if you win? That's a bit of an eye-raiser...especially if they're doing this on the Strip.
April 17th, 2022 at 10:16:21 AM
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Do they really let you buy the 5 and 9 with vig on win? I think my first post on this forum was starting a thread asking if anyone knew a casino in Vegas that let you do that. Funny.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
April 17th, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM
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Buying 5/9? I have basically never seen anybody doing it. Even with a few hundred dollars on it.
April 17th, 2022 at 11:50:39 AM
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Quote: speedycrapBuying 5/9? I have basically never seen anybody doing it. Even with a few hundred dollars on it.
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I’ve seen it. Never in Vegas though.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
April 17th, 2022 at 11:52:03 AM
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Whereabout?
April 17th, 2022 at 11:53:48 AM
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Quote: speedycrapWhereabout?
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Rivers in Pittsburgh. Believe I recall demango said it’s same way in Biloxi.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
April 17th, 2022 at 12:13:10 PM
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Go South young man1 We be buying 5/9 forever in MS! A $10 five even paid $14.50 and %36.50 for a $25 five! then around 2008 they did away with Kennedy halves.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
April 17th, 2022 at 12:22:56 PM
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As mentioned, placing the 6/8 is still better than buying it with commission charged on win only. However, if they let you buy the 6/8 for any amount more than $30 for $1, then buying is a better deal.
I've heard that they will keep the commission at $1 for a $25 buy, but not sure of higher amounts. If you bought the 6 for $35, would they charge $1 or $2? I'd assume $2
I've heard that they will keep the commission at $1 for a $25 buy, but not sure of higher amounts. If you bought the 6 for $35, would they charge $1 or $2? I'd assume $2
Last edited by: Ace2 on Apr 17, 2022
It’s all about making that GTA
April 17th, 2022 at 5:50:10 PM
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Eep! I've never considered buying the 6 or 8 before. Let me try that on WinCraps for a bit.
I made a $240 buy bet on the 8. It pays $288 at 1.2X minus a $12 vig on a win equals $276. If I just made a PB 8 for $240 it would pay $280. So the buy bet shorts me $4 compared to a PB, and shorts me $12 compared to an odds bet..
I made a $240 buy bet on the 9. It pays $360 at 1.5X minus a $12 vig on a win equals $348. If I just made a PB 9 for $240 it would pay $336. So the PB shorts me $12 compared to the buy bet, and shorts me $24 compared to an odds bet.
I made a $240 buy bet on the 10. It pays me $480 at 2.0X minus a $12 vig on a win equals $468. If I just made a PB 10 for $240 it would pay $432. So the PB shorts me $36 compared to the buy bet, and shorts me $48 compared to an odds bet.
I'm betting triple odds on a 3 Point Molly and replacing the winning Come points with 2 PB's. Example: $120 Come bet with $360 odds wins and then I put down two $240 PB's. It saves on the trouble of wasting rolls re-establishing a point.
I'm on a bit of a winning streak today.
Since there's only vig on a bet around my area, I'd just bet PB 6/8, and rebet the Come with odds for other numbers. It's basically turning my game into a 5 Point Molly with $60 Come bets and $180 odds, gah!
My WinCraps luck was just turning when I went to 5 Point Molly with Come bets at half the PL bet and both at triple odds. I'm not getting the runs of hitting PBs replaced by a run of Come with odds bets won because of Come-out 7 winners on the PL and too many short hands.
I'll likely just stick with the 4 PBs and the buy 5/9 won't be available.
I made a $240 buy bet on the 8. It pays $288 at 1.2X minus a $12 vig on a win equals $276. If I just made a PB 8 for $240 it would pay $280. So the buy bet shorts me $4 compared to a PB, and shorts me $12 compared to an odds bet..
I made a $240 buy bet on the 9. It pays $360 at 1.5X minus a $12 vig on a win equals $348. If I just made a PB 9 for $240 it would pay $336. So the PB shorts me $12 compared to the buy bet, and shorts me $24 compared to an odds bet.
I made a $240 buy bet on the 10. It pays me $480 at 2.0X minus a $12 vig on a win equals $468. If I just made a PB 10 for $240 it would pay $432. So the PB shorts me $36 compared to the buy bet, and shorts me $48 compared to an odds bet.
I'm betting triple odds on a 3 Point Molly and replacing the winning Come points with 2 PB's. Example: $120 Come bet with $360 odds wins and then I put down two $240 PB's. It saves on the trouble of wasting rolls re-establishing a point.
I'm on a bit of a winning streak today.
Since there's only vig on a bet around my area, I'd just bet PB 6/8, and rebet the Come with odds for other numbers. It's basically turning my game into a 5 Point Molly with $60 Come bets and $180 odds, gah!
My WinCraps luck was just turning when I went to 5 Point Molly with Come bets at half the PL bet and both at triple odds. I'm not getting the runs of hitting PBs replaced by a run of Come with odds bets won because of Come-out 7 winners on the PL and too many short hands.
I'll likely just stick with the 4 PBs and the buy 5/9 won't be available.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Apr 17, 2022
April 17th, 2022 at 6:45:25 PM
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Making the two $240 place bets saves you trouble but costs you several times the vig as making another $120 come bet with 3x oddsQuote: ChumpChange
I'm betting triple odds on a 3 Point Molly and replacing the winning Come points with 2 PB's. Example: $120 Come bet with $360 odds wins and then I put down two $240 PB's. It saves on the trouble of wasting rolls re-establishing a point.
It’s all about making that GTA
June 8th, 2022 at 9:32:00 AM
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Quote: ThatDonGuyQuote: Ace2When the commission is charged on win only, you never wager the commission amount...it's deducted from the win amount. So if you wager $100 on 4/10 and win then you collect your $100 plus $195 net winnings ($200 minus the $5 commission). If you lose then you lose your $100
So the commission is 5% of the original bet, but it's only paid if you win? That's a bit of an eye-raiser...especially if they're doing this on the Strip.
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Can anyone confirm how they round the vig on a $25 buy bet at MGM properties nowadays? Do they charge $1 or $2?
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things."
- Isaac Newton
June 8th, 2022 at 10:18:15 AM
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Quote: JimRockfordQuote: ThatDonGuyQuote: Ace2When the commission is charged on win only, you never wager the commission amount...it's deducted from the win amount. So if you wager $100 on 4/10 and win then you collect your $100 plus $195 net winnings ($200 minus the $5 commission). If you lose then you lose your $100
So the commission is 5% of the original bet, but it's only paid if you win? That's a bit of an eye-raiser...especially if they're doing this on the Strip.
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Can anyone confirm how they round the vig on a $25 buy bet at MGM properties nowadays? Do they charge $1 or $2?
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Everyone else in town has $1 vig.
June 8th, 2022 at 10:50:01 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: JimRockfordQuote: ThatDonGuyQuote: Ace2When the commission is charged on win only, you never wager the commission amount...it's deducted from the win amount. So if you wager $100 on 4/10 and win then you collect your $100 plus $195 net winnings ($200 minus the $5 commission). If you lose then you lose your $100
So the commission is 5% of the original bet, but it's only paid if you win? That's a bit of an eye-raiser...especially if they're doing this on the Strip.
link to original post
Can anyone confirm how they round the vig on a $25 buy bet at MGM properties nowadays? Do they charge $1 or $2?
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Everyone else in town has $1 vig.
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Sorry Alan, I don’t follow. Are you including or excluding MGM properties in “everyone else “?
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things."
- Isaac Newton
October 21st, 2022 at 10:33:45 PM
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I'm heading to Park MGM in Nov. I am still a novice when it comes to betting strategies, and I have never bought the 5/9 before. Usually a $5-$10 player.
Can anyone verify if buying the 5/9 with vig after (aka "on win") still applies at MGM? At a $25 table, which seems more common now on the Strip, do they "auto buy", or do you need to specify you want to buy? And if buying, would it be tacky to bet $26, or just go to $30?
Anyone know if other casinos in Vegas are doing this (ie Caesars, Stations, Downtown, etc) as well?
Can anyone verify if buying the 5/9 with vig after (aka "on win") still applies at MGM? At a $25 table, which seems more common now on the Strip, do they "auto buy", or do you need to specify you want to buy? And if buying, would it be tacky to bet $26, or just go to $30?
Anyone know if other casinos in Vegas are doing this (ie Caesars, Stations, Downtown, etc) as well?
October 22nd, 2022 at 9:06:33 AM
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Buy it for $38 if you must buy
It’s all about making that GTA
October 22nd, 2022 at 9:22:12 AM
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There might be a minimum bet requirement for a Buy Bet on the 5,9 of $100 or $200 so it's worth a red chip or two for starters. Need to bet in $20 increments that pay $29 instead of $28.
October 22nd, 2022 at 5:21:36 PM
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When I was there a few months ago the vig was after on the 4/10 only. One craps pit boss let me bet the 5/9 with vig after once (which I did to see if I could) then later told me it wasn’t allowed and he shouldn’t have.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
October 22nd, 2022 at 10:50:16 PM
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But/Lay the 2 for $39/$234 instead. Commission on win only. Most importantly, don’t make any HardEight bets
It’s all about making that GTA
October 23rd, 2022 at 4:51:06 AM
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Quote: Ace2But/Lay the 2 for $39/$234 instead. Commission on win only. Most importantly, don’t make any HardEight bets
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If I recall every casino charges the vig on lay bets up front.
Do you play at a casino that doesn't? What's the casino name?
And what casino allows a lay on horn numbers?
October 23rd, 2022 at 10:48:20 AM
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All MGM casinos charge vig on win only for buy and lay bets.
I have not found a Vegas casino that allows lay bets in a Crapless Craps game but I didn’t search much. But I believe there are casinos that allow it
I have not found a Vegas casino that allows lay bets in a Crapless Craps game but I didn’t search much. But I believe there are casinos that allow it
It’s all about making that GTA
October 23rd, 2022 at 3:56:51 PM
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Quote: Ace2All MGM casinos charge vig on win only for buy and lay bets.
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I think all casinos now charge the vig when a buy bet wins... though years ago you paid the vig when you bought the 4 and 10.
But this is a surprise to me that the vig is paid only when a lay bet wins??
I haven't played at an MGM property in years... and I can't play craps at MGM Grand and NYNY... but other casinos I play at I must pay the vig when laying a number. This includes Red Rock and Suncoast.
October 23rd, 2022 at 5:33:36 PM
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Learn something new everyday...
I just called the craps pit at Bellagio and they confirmed they just switched over to charging the vig on winning lay bets.
I don't know when the other MGM casinos started this but if I returned to MGM it would be at Bellagio.
Now I'm going to ask Red Rock if they'll follow??
I just called the craps pit at Bellagio and they confirmed they just switched over to charging the vig on winning lay bets.
I don't know when the other MGM casinos started this but if I returned to MGM it would be at Bellagio.
Now I'm going to ask Red Rock if they'll follow??
October 23rd, 2022 at 5:50:52 PM
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The first post of this thread, stating no more up-front vig on buy/lay at MGM properties, is dated Apr-17. That same day you commented: “This is very important to me because I typically lay a remaining box number when only one is needed for the Bonus Craps (All, Tall, Small) bets.”Quote: AlanMendelson
I don't know when the other MGM casinos started this but if I returned to MGM it would be at Bellagio.
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Are you sure this is “new news”?
It’s all about making that GTA
October 23rd, 2022 at 7:14:42 PM
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Quote: WABJ11All the MGM properties have finally changed to no charge on vig/juice up front for craps buys and lay bets. They only charge AFTER the win. This reduces the house edge by half and is a big deal.
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Sorry for the late arrival.
First, it's my understanding as someone who very rarely plays craps that most casinos do the following:
6 and 8 -- pay the 7/6 place bet odds
5 and 9 -- pay the 7/5 place bet odds
4 and 10 -- charge 5%, based on the bet amount, after a win only, for bets of $20 or more. For less, they pay 9/5 place bet odds.
I see this policy affecting the 5 and 9 only.
The 7/5 place bet odds have a house edge of 4.00%.
If the commission were always charged, the house edge would be 4.76%.
If the commission were charged on wins only, the house edge would be 2.00%.
I'll try to verify this my next visit to an MGM property, but until then, who can confirm that MGM properties charge the Vig after a win only on the 5 and 9?
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
October 23rd, 2022 at 8:24:24 PM
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Note to Dieter:
See how Wizard's post appears twice.
See how Wizard's post appears twice.
October 23rd, 2022 at 9:22:52 PM
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I believe all casinos would automatically convert a place bet on 4/10 to a buy bet. Even when the commission is collected up front, buying has a lower edge (4.76%) than placing (6.67%).
With commission on win only, it’s also more favorable to buy the 6/8 for amounts >$30 and <$40. The same would go for laying the 6/8 for between $36 and $48
Place bets are mostly obsolete at casinos that charge commission on win only. And it’s easier math than using the awkward 7:6 ratio for place bets on 6/8
With commission on win only, it’s also more favorable to buy the 6/8 for amounts >$30 and <$40. The same would go for laying the 6/8 for between $36 and $48
Place bets are mostly obsolete at casinos that charge commission on win only. And it’s easier math than using the awkward 7:6 ratio for place bets on 6/8
Last edited by: Ace2 on Oct 23, 2022
It’s all about making that GTA
April 5th, 2023 at 1:24:33 AM
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The policy at MGM properties remains the same that you pay the commission ONLY on wins for all numbers. Definitely helps as a dont bettor for some insurance on the come out roll.
After it being in place now for about a year this is probably a strategy all casinos should implore. It keeps the game moving faster, people lose slower, and it just makes it easier all around. Whoever thought this up was smart to roll it out. I assume it’s working out well for them too since they have not rolled it back.
After it being in place now for about a year this is probably a strategy all casinos should implore. It keeps the game moving faster, people lose slower, and it just makes it easier all around. Whoever thought this up was smart to roll it out. I assume it’s working out well for them too since they have not rolled it back.
April 5th, 2023 at 10:58:51 AM
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Place bets should be eliminated from the table. Buys are lower vig, even on the 6/8 with a $35 bet. No more funny payout ratios of 7/6, 7/5 and 9/5.
It’s all about making that GTA
April 5th, 2023 at 1:58:37 PM
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I forget what the payout on a buy 6,8 is but it's one of the bets that I still do place instead of buy on the bubble craps machine. I buy the 4,5,9,& 10 to get better payouts on a win. The buy 4,10 pays $1.95 (instead of $1.80) for a $1 bet & the buy 5,9 pays $1.45 (instead of $1.40) for a $1 bet, basically a nickel vig per win at that level. 20 wins of that and I'm already down one $1 bet. So betting PL & odds would take out the vig excluding the PL vig. But it always seems like I'm trying to hit the number twice for the payoff before a 7-out when trying to win an odds bet on a line bet.
If I place the 6 for $6 after the point gets established, and I put $1 on the PL with $5 odds (if it was a 5X odds table, which it isn't) and establish a point of 6, I'd have to hit the 6 a second time to win the $7 on the PB 6 and a second time to win the $7 on the PL + Odds bet. But if I also had a PB 8 up for $6, I'd only have to hit the PB 8 once to win on that, but I'd be $1 ahead if a 7-out came before a 2nd hit, if I wasn't pressing my bet. I usually half-press my 6 & 8 bets, so to come out even with them compared to flat betting, I have to hit one number twice anyway.
If I place the 6 for $6 after the point gets established, and I put $1 on the PL with $5 odds (if it was a 5X odds table, which it isn't) and establish a point of 6, I'd have to hit the 6 a second time to win the $7 on the PB 6 and a second time to win the $7 on the PL + Odds bet. But if I also had a PB 8 up for $6, I'd only have to hit the PB 8 once to win on that, but I'd be $1 ahead if a 7-out came before a 2nd hit, if I wasn't pressing my bet. I usually half-press my 6 & 8 bets, so to come out even with them compared to flat betting, I have to hit one number twice anyway.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Apr 5, 2023
April 5th, 2023 at 3:48:40 PM
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Quote: Ace2Place bets should be eliminated from the table. Buys are lower vig, even on the 6/8 with a $35 bet. No more funny payout ratios of 7/6, 7/5 and 9/5.
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Last time I was there it was only vig on win for the 4 and 10 buys. Not on 5/6/8/9. Has that changed?
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
April 5th, 2023 at 4:25:24 PM
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Read the thread
It’s all about making that GTA
April 5th, 2023 at 4:33:12 PM
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Quote: Ace2Read the thread
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Boring
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
