FrancisCheung
FrancisCheung
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February 26th, 2022 at 10:06:12 PM permalink
I've noticed interesting behavior with my come bets after the pass line point has been rolled. My come bets seem to be "working" since I get paid even on the pass line come out roll. The interesting behavior I've seen is that if a 7 is rolled on the pass line come out roll, the dealer takes the flat portion of my come bets, but returns to me the odds portion of my come bets.

I play lots of come bets and noticed this behavior in many casinos.

If this is correct, this should mean a noticeable advantage of come bets over pass line and place/buy bets.

Has anyone else seen this or agree/disagree?
ChumpChange
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February 26th, 2022 at 10:31:59 PM permalink
Come bets lose on a Pass Line Come-out 7 winner. The odds on the Come bets are not working on come-out rolls, so if they lose they are returned to you. If your Come bet wins on a Come-out roll, you'll be paid an even money win on the Come bet, but the odds bet will be returned to you without a win.

If you know how to press your odds, odds bets might be a better bet than place bets. I just lose all patience with a Come-out 7 knocking all my Come bet points down.
The maths persons here recommend betting Come bets over placing Place bets because there's a lower house edge, but Pass Line and Come bets have the same house advantage.

The Don't Pass & the Don't Come bets have a slightly lower house edge.

The odds bets for either side of the line have no house edge. It's just that you'll win 40% of the time on the Do side and 60% of the time on the Don't side with the odds bets.
AlanMendelson
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February 26th, 2022 at 11:48:28 PM permalink
To answer your basic question this is the standard way come bets with odds are treated by casinos.
odiousgambit
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February 27th, 2022 at 2:55:50 AM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

Come bets lose on a Pass Line Come-out 7 winner.
link to original post

you can't make a come bet when the shooter is coming out. I think you mean to say if your come bet became a point to resolve, it loses when a 7 is rolled. You could name this bet a "traveled come bet" for short.

Because the shooter wants to roll a 7 when coming out, the house allows any bets to be turned off or removed that can be. That does not include the traveled come bet which is a contract bet. The odds though are not contract bets, and it is standard to turn them off without asking. They are thus assumed to be off. You instead can ask to have them turned on.

There is no advantage to the player in turning off these free odds bets assuming random rolling. If there was, the thing to do would be to not make these bets at all, since they are vulnerable to a 7 being rolled at all times [unless turned off]. Simply, they cannot lose or win if off. The Wizard recommends telling the dealer to have your free odds bets on instead of off. I have found the dealer likes a player to use the expression "odds always working"

PS: that the dealer returns those bets to you like the OP describes, is a statement. It is not to the advantage of the house for that bet to exist, even though the next roll is a come-out by rule. If the house benefited, they'd figure out a way to keep them up for you.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DeMango
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February 27th, 2022 at 6:02:26 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

To answer your basic question this is the standard way come bets with odds are treated by casinos.
link to original post


Why do people play a game, they know not the rules of?
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
AlanMendelson
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February 27th, 2022 at 8:58:30 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

Quote: AlanMendelson

To answer your basic question this is the standard way come bets with odds are treated by casinos.
link to original post


Why do people play a game, they know not the rules of?
link to original post



Every day there are new players in casinos who have no idea about video poker paytables or odds bets at craps or how to split 8s in blackjack.

Every day there must be people who do a Google search for gambling info and end up here.
billryan
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February 27th, 2022 at 9:18:49 AM permalink
I don't play craps at all but someone asked me this so this seems like a good place to ask.
There are three employees at a craps table. Two standing, one sitting. As I understand it, the standing workers handle bets. Is this correct? Do they split the table 50-50 or does the sitting guy handle bets in front of him?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AlanMendelson
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February 27th, 2022 at 9:24:00 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

I don't play craps at all but someone asked me this so this seems like a good place to ask.
There are three employees at a craps table. Two standing, one sitting. As I understand it, the standing workers handle bets. Is this correct? Do they split the table 50-50 or does the sitting guy handle bets in front of him?
link to original post



The box man sits and supervises the game and is in charge of the bank.

At a full table three dealers stand and one boxman sits.

The third standing dealer has the stick and handles center table bets.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
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February 27th, 2022 at 12:10:01 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

I don't play craps at all but someone asked me this so this seems like a good place to ask.
There are three employees at a craps table. Two standing, one sitting. As I understand it, the standing workers handle bets. Is this correct? Do they split the table 50-50 or does the sitting guy handle bets in front of him?
link to original post



Hi billryan, and welcome to the forum.

Everyone starts as a rookie.
May the cards fall in your favor.
tuttigym
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February 27th, 2022 at 12:42:02 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

I don't play craps at all but someone asked me this so this seems like a good place to ask.
There are three employees at a craps table. Two standing, one sitting. As I understand it, the standing workers handle bets. Is this correct? Do they split the table 50-50 or does the sitting guy handle bets in front of him?
link to original post


So how do you KNOW that betting systems and/or strategies do not work at craps? Apparently, you have no first-hand knowledge and those you might be listening to apparently do not profit often. Why not do some real research; observe, document, plot, and detail the myriad and scope of wagering, and then summarize the actual results?

tuttigym
Vegasrider
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pwcrabb
February 27th, 2022 at 1:22:17 PM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Quote: billryan

I don't play craps at all but someone asked me this so this seems like a good place to ask.
There are three employees at a craps table. Two standing, one sitting. As I understand it, the standing workers handle bets. Is this correct? Do they split the table 50-50 or does the sitting guy handle bets in front of him?
link to original post


So how do you KNOW that betting systems and/or strategies do not work at craps? Apparently, you have no first-hand knowledge and those you might be listening to apparently do not profit often. Why not do some real research; observe, document, plot, and detail the myriad and scope of wagering, and then summarize the actual results?

tuttigym
link to original post



I've been betting all my life, from Bingo, Playing live poker, sports, UTH, etc. Always looking for and edge. What I have not pursued is the game of craps. Last month I watched dozens of Youtube video on how to play craps, mostly on the Don't side because it provides a slightly lower house edge and I like the contrarian route, because that just who I am. I also practiced on the computer. I have now played a total of ten live sessions, and I have posted 7 wins, 2 losses and one push. Of my two losses I lost $1000 each. But after each loss, I go home and figure out what I could have done differently. I have asked questions on this forum and have received some solid advice. The last three weekends, I have now posted a $1800, $2500, $2800, $100, $1100 and $2700 win. On an $8200 run using my system. Crazy, there are times at the table we have more players playing the Don't Pass. Players who asked for help I tell them to do what I do and even the new players walk out as winners, But they were very lucky, my system requires a large bankroll to withstand long rolls. I won $2700 last night and that includes surviving multiple 20 plus rolls and one 43 Roll!
AlanMendelson
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February 27th, 2022 at 2:43:26 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

I won $2700 last night and that includes surviving multiple 20 plus rolls and one 43 Roll!
link to original post



I havent been at a table with 43 rolls by one shooter in over a year and I play almost every day.

I cant even imagine a table with multiple 20+ rolls and 43 rolls by one shooter.

And you still won on the don't?
Ace2
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ChumpChange
February 27th, 2022 at 4:17:15 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Vegasrider

I won $2700 last night and that includes surviving multiple 20 plus rolls and one 43 Roll!
link to original post



I havent been at a table with 43 rolls by one shooter in over a year and I play almost every day.

I cant even imagine a table with multiple 20+ rolls and 43 rolls by one shooter.

And you still won on the don't?
link to original post

43 rolls is no big deal..,takes about 26 minutes assuming 100 rolls per hour. Such a roll (or longer) will occur about every 412 shooters. If you average five hours of play per day, you should see a roll of this length (or longer) about once per week.
It’s all about making that GTA
ChumpChange
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February 27th, 2022 at 4:22:13 PM permalink
Only tourists are throwing at Alan's tables, lol.
Vegasrider
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February 27th, 2022 at 6:37:45 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Vegasrider

I won $2700 last night and that includes surviving multiple 20 plus rolls and one 43 Roll!
link to original post



I havent been at a table with 43 rolls by one shooter in over a year and I play almost every day.
I cant even imagine a table with multiple 20+ rolls and 43 rolls by one shooter.

And you still won on the don't?
link to original post



I only play one number, which is the point so I always have the math on my side on every roll, once the point has been established. I believe the fire bet came in so I lost at least three full bets at various units. I always lay 6X. How do I keep track of the rolls? I always get a stack of white ($1 chips) and I use them to keep track of the rolls, stacking them from one end of the rack after each roll. For me, it's important to know how many rolls has been rolled W/O a 7 or how long a shooter has been rolling. And it gives me something to do because the Don't is my ONLY bet. My sessions are at least 6 hrs long, I normally like to play for 8 hrs, but I have played up to 12 hrs.
unJon
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February 27th, 2022 at 7:54:35 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Vegasrider

I won $2700 last night and that includes surviving multiple 20 plus rolls and one 43 Roll!
link to original post



I havent been at a table with 43 rolls by one shooter in over a year and I play almost every day.
I cant even imagine a table with multiple 20+ rolls and 43 rolls by one shooter.

And you still won on the don't?
link to original post



I only play one number, which is the point so I always have the math on my side on every roll, once the point has been established. I believe the fire bet came in so I lost at least three full bets at various units. I always lay 6X. How do I keep track of the rolls? I always get a stack of white ($1 chips) and I use them to keep track of the rolls, stacking them from one end of the rack after each roll. For me, it's important to know how many rolls has been rolled W/O a 7 or how long a shooter has been rolling. And it gives me something to do because the Don't is my ONLY bet. My sessions are at least 6 hrs long, I normally like to play for 8 hrs, but I have played up to 12 hrs.
link to original post



So your system is don’t pass with full odds? No don’t come and nothing else?

I’m just curious more than anything. I thought it would be something more complicated based on the comments you got from dealers.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Vegasrider
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February 27th, 2022 at 8:33:33 PM permalink
@Unjohn, Y, but there are other factors that comes into play. But to be honest, 10 live sessions is not large enough sample size.

But let me ask someone who has played craps a lot? How often do you see fire bets come in during your hours of play and if they do hit, has it gone past 4 points? This is the only way I could go broke.
AlanMendelson
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February 27th, 2022 at 8:40:48 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

@Unjohn, Y, but there are other factors that comes into play. But to be honest, 10 live sessions is not large enough sample size.

But let me ask someone who has played craps a lot? How often do you see fire bets come in during your hours of play and if they do hit, has it gone past 4 points? This is the only way I could go broke.
link to original post



I only play at casinos that offer Bonus Craps. The ALL hits about once per session that I'm there. Never has a shooter hit the all twice in a row at my table.

You only need ten rolls to hit the ALL. Its been hit in 15-17 rolls typically.

I dont think I've been on a table with 20+ rolls in months.

I need to find some DIs to play with.
Ace2
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February 27th, 2022 at 9:17:03 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson


You only need ten rolls to hit the ALL. Its been hit in 15-17 rolls typically.

I don't have time to work out the math right now, but I estimate the probability of winning the ALL in <18 rolls would be VERY remote.

You should see a 20+ roll about every 80 minutes, so you must be playing exclusively with tourists. I arrive to Vegas next week for a few days so you should come to my table...in all my years of shooting, the shortest roll I ever had was 28
It’s all about making that GTA
AlanMendelson
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February 27th, 2022 at 10:09:32 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson


You only need ten rolls to hit the ALL. Its been hit in 15-17 rolls typically.

I don't have time to work out the math right now, but I estimate the probability of winning the ALL in <18 rolls would be VERY remote.

You should see a 20+ roll about every 80 minutes, so you must be playing exclusively with tourists. I arrive to Vegas next week for a few days so you should come to my table...in all my years of shooting, the shortest roll I ever had was 28
link to original post



PLEASE. PLEASE. PLEASE. Please invite me. Oh how I would love to be at the table of a shooter who says "the shortest roll I ever had was 28."

In fact, I will be so appreciative of this opportunity I promise to share my profits with you.

Please give me 24 hours notice. You can PM me. I will meet you anytime at the casino of your choice.
unJon
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February 28th, 2022 at 2:29:51 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

@Unjohn, Y, but there are other factors that comes into play. But to be honest, 10 live sessions is not large enough sample size.

But let me ask someone who has played craps a lot? How often do you see fire bets come in during your hours of play and if they do hit, has it gone past 4 points? This is the only way I could go broke.
link to original post



I’ve only ever played at a place with a fire bet once, and only for an hour. I would assume more than four points happens as often as the odds would predict it does.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AlanMendelson
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February 28th, 2022 at 4:02:02 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: Vegasrider

@Unjohn, Y, but there are other factors that comes into play. But to be honest, 10 live sessions is not large enough sample size.

But let me ask someone who has played craps a lot? How often do you see fire bets come in during your hours of play and if they do hit, has it gone past 4 points? This is the only way I could go broke.
link to original post



I’ve only ever played at a place with a fire bet once, and only for an hour. I would assume more than four points happens as often as the odds would predict it does.
link to original post



While I haven't played at a casino with the Fire Bet in the last four years I used to play it all the time at Caesars and Rio.

I never threw all six points but I threw 5 points about four or five times -- i dont really remember. I never even set the sixth point.

I hit all six numbers only twice. Once at Rio with another shooter. And once at Harrah's Rincon playing card craps.

I've hit four points with other shooters and shooting myself many times.

But I really look forward to playing with a shooter who says he's never thrown fewer than 28 times when holding the dice.

I'll amend my offer: I'll split my profits 50/50 with such a shooter (Ace2).
odiousgambit
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February 28th, 2022 at 4:16:23 AM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson


You only need ten rolls to hit the ALL. Its been hit in 15-17 rolls typically.

I don't have time to work out the math right now, but I estimate the probability of winning the ALL in <18 rolls would be VERY remote.

You should see a 20+ roll about every 80 minutes, so you must be playing exclusively with tourists. I arrive to Vegas next week for a few days so you should come to my table...in all my years of shooting, the shortest roll I ever had was 28
link to original post

Surely you mean "the longest roll, of all my rolls, has never been less than 28 in a session" ... but of course typically shorter. sometimes point and seven out like everybody else too. ... otherwise you'd own the casino by now
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Vegasrider
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February 28th, 2022 at 9:00:26 AM permalink
To clarify, since fire bets does not include duplicate points, shooter shooting more than 4 points, I COULD go broke in my session. The longest roll I have had was around 35, unfortunately as. Don’t player. That was one of my $1000 losses, but actually lost more since I had more than 1k to begin the roll. But that was when I was loading the bases, I have tweaked my strategy to only having one number going against my 7.
AlanMendelson
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February 28th, 2022 at 9:03:39 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

To clarify, since fire bets does not include duplicate points, shooter shooting more than 4 points, I COULD go broke in my session. The longest roll I have had was around 35, unfortunately as. Don’t player. That was one of my $1000 losses, but actually lost more since Inhad more than 1k to begin the roll. But that was when I was loading the bases, I have tweaked my strategy to only having one number going against my 7.
link to original post



Do you stick with your Dont strategy if the DC lands on a 6 or 8, or do you decline that bet and wait for the next DC roll?
Vegasrider
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February 28th, 2022 at 9:16:31 AM permalink
@AlanM, Y, I realize there is a greater probability to roll a 6 or 8 but the math is still on my side. Plus those numbers provide the largest payouts when a 7 does roll so it is essential for me to play them. I also don’t get suckered in hedging my bets on a hard 6 or 8 bet either. Like I said, my system is very boring until a long roll comes along in which 3 or 4 points has hit, then it gets incredibly scary.
AlanMendelson
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February 28th, 2022 at 9:44:22 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Plus those numbers provide the largest payouts when a 7 does roll so it is essential for me to play them.
link to original post



Is it really essential when you're betting six to win 5?
I wouldn't call that the largest payouts.
unJon
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February 28th, 2022 at 10:26:29 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Vegasrider

Plus those numbers provide the largest payouts when a 7 does roll so it is essential for me to play them.
link to original post



Is it really essential when you're betting six to win 5?
I wouldn't call that the largest payouts.
link to original post



Larger than 6:4 or 6:3 he gets on the other numbers.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Vegasrider
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February 28th, 2022 at 10:33:48 AM permalink
Y, because it’s better than winning 2 when betting 3 or winning only 1 when you bet 2. I grew up playing live poker , grinding it out at the Bellagio for over a decade. I am use to putting in long sessions. I apply the same principles in craps, it’s a slow grind. I am willing to put in the hours. Most players don’t have the luxury of time, they either have a friend or wife with them so there sessions are limited. When I play, my sessions are open ended. That’s the approach I have to take WHEN you live in a city in which the games are available 24/7. My longest poker session was 36 hrs, but that will not happen again. Too old for that now. But I remember when I got stuck in a poker game at the Bellagio and was getting very tired, I use to put all my chips in my backpack and take it home with me, come back the next day and sit down with the same chips and just turned it into the same game, but a long break. Okay, players and seat might have been different but it’s the mindset.
AlanMendelson
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February 28th, 2022 at 11:26:32 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Vegasrider

Plus those numbers provide the largest payouts when a 7 does roll so it is essential for me to play them.
link to original post



Is it really essential when you're betting six to win 5?
I wouldn't call that the largest payouts.
link to original post



Larger than 6:4 or 6:3 he gets on the other numbers.
link to original post



With 4 and 10 you have fewer ways to lose.

I guess I look at betting differently.
AlanMendelson
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February 28th, 2022 at 11:29:57 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

I use to put all my chips in my backpack and take it home with me, come back the next day and sit down with the same chips and just turned it into the same game, but a long break.
link to original post



What poker game allowed you to do that?

When you leave a $200 game you are limited to a $200 buyin when you return.
Vegasrider
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February 28th, 2022 at 11:36:06 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Vegasrider

I use to put all my chips in my backpack and take it home with me, come back the next day and sit down with the same chips and just turned it into the same game, but a long break.
link to original post



What poker game allowed you to do that?

When you leave a $200 game you are limited to a $200 buyin when you return.
link to original post



This was when I was playing $30-60 Limit-Hold ‘’Em. I’m old school.
unJon
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February 28th, 2022 at 11:58:44 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Vegasrider

Plus those numbers provide the largest payouts when a 7 does roll so it is essential for me to play them.
link to original post



Is it really essential when you're betting six to win 5?
I wouldn't call that the largest payouts.
link to original post



Larger than 6:4 or 6:3 he gets on the other numbers.
link to original post



With 4 and 10 you have fewer ways to lose.

I guess I look at betting differently.
link to original post



Same way to look at it. True odds are true odds.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AlanMendelson
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February 28th, 2022 at 11:59:44 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Vegasrider

I use to put all my chips in my backpack and take it home with me, come back the next day and sit down with the same chips and just turned it into the same game, but a long break.
link to original post



What poker game allowed you to do that?

When you leave a $200 game you are limited to a $200 buyin when you return.
link to original post



This was when I was playing $30-60 Limit-Hold ‘’Em. I’m old school.
link to original post



I'm not familiar with limit. What is the buyin? Is it capped or is it unlimited what you bring to the table?
Vegasrider
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February 28th, 2022 at 1:50:32 PM permalink
Seriously? You don’t known the conventional limit hold ‘em? Minimum buy in is usually 10X the minimum bet, some places more with no cap. But you can’t go broke in one hand like No Limit. Has a structured round of betting based on the table limits. $20~$40 Hold ‘em would require a minimum of $200, starting with 10-20 blinds and the betting rounds would be $20, $20 pre and flop with raises in increments of $20 each and $40 for the turn and river, with a max raise of 4x or 5x per round depending on the room. Great game with $5 chips! Lots of chips on the table. Same goes for $40-80 Hold ‘em with $10 chips or even $4-8 with $1 chips. Most I have won in a $40-80 game back in the Mirage, prior to Bellagio Poker Room opening was $10k. I was running good as the poker world calls it.
AlanMendelson
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February 28th, 2022 at 2:08:28 PM permalink
Sorry Vegasrider, but I missed the lessons on limit poker when I was rewriting the books on counting the phantom unemployed for the Labor Dept.
daveyandersen1
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March 1st, 2022 at 12:57:28 PM permalink
really? Really?? REALLY??? your not bending the truth?? ACE2about the 28 r0lls
AlanMendelson
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March 1st, 2022 at 1:28:50 PM permalink
Quote: daveyandersen1

really? Really?? REALLY??? your not bending the truth?? ACE2about the 28 r0lls
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I certainly hope not. I offered Ace 50% of my profit when he's the shooter. He only needs to make a passline bet.

I think that's a darn good AP move for a shooter who says his shortest roll had 28 throws. If only 20 throws are non horn numbers, and we're at a $15 table, the gross on 20 throws could be:

20 X $21 = $420

The net could be $420 - $96 = $324
MrV
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March 1st, 2022 at 3:50:01 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

. I arrive to Vegas next week for a few days so you should come to my table...in all my years of shooting, the shortest roll I ever had was 28.



Whoa, Nelly!

Gotta put hip boots on, the manure is getting really deep and odoriferous.
"What, me worry?"
AlanMendelson
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March 3rd, 2022 at 2:42:55 PM permalink
I guess we'll never hear about this again.
MrV
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March 3rd, 2022 at 3:11:51 PM permalink
"What, me worry?"
daveyandersen1
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March 3rd, 2022 at 4:07:41 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

I guess we'll never hear about this again.
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I I think ACE2 should be careful what he says about LONG ROLLS at craps.... Craps players are both gullible and asperational .... Its easy to get our hopes up...
AlanMendelson
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March 3rd, 2022 at 4:25:36 PM permalink
I'm reminded of an incident at Caesars many years ago. At the time I was checking my watch for every shooter to time their rolls.

A shooter got the dice and had a long roll, and a profitable one. When he finally severed out our base dealer said it was probably a half-hour roll.

I looked at my watch: it was 12 minutes.
Vegasrider
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March 4th, 2022 at 10:25:20 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm reminded of an incident at Caesars many years ago. At the time I was checking my watch for every shooter to time their rolls.

A shooter got the dice and had a long roll, and a profitable one. When he finally severed out our base dealer said it was probably a half-hour roll.

I looked at my watch: it was 12 minutes.
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It’s more about the number of rolls you roll, not time. Depending on how many players and what they are betting, the time between rolls can be as long as over a minute or less than 5-10 seconds. This is why I keep track of the rolls vs using time
Ahigh
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DieterDeMango
March 4th, 2022 at 11:59:54 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm reminded of an incident at Caesars many years ago. At the time I was checking my watch for every shooter to time their rolls.

A shooter got the dice and had a long roll, and a profitable one. When he finally severed out our base dealer said it was probably a half-hour roll.

I looked at my watch: it was 12 minutes.
link to original post



It’s more about the number of rolls you roll, not time. Depending on how many players and what they are betting, the time between rolls can be as long as over a minute or less than 5-10 seconds. This is why I keep track of the rolls vs using time
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I had a long roll one time, and I chopped into half and made two 6-inch subs.
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