90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 22nd, 2019 at 10:38:55 PM permalink
I should know this answer by now, but I'm not sure I do.....need your help please--Here's the scenario:

I put $30 on the Don't Pass. Next is the Come Out roll. A 6 rolls and becomes the point.
Next I put $30 on the Don't Come. The next roll is a 5--I move the Don't Come $30 to the 5.
Again I put $30 on the Don't Come and the next roll is a 4, so I move the $30 to the 4.
So now I have three numbers in play.

The next roll is 6 (the point) so I lose my $30 on the 6, and the Puck goes to off. Now I've only got two numbers in action and I want a third. So I put another $30 on the Don't Come, and the next roll is a 7. I know I lose my Don't Come $30, but my confusion has to do with the 4 and the 5, each with $30.

Do I lose these, or do I win $30 on the 4, and $30 on the 5? I think I win these because even though the Puck is off, those numbers are active, and the Come Out 7 came before the 4 and the 5.
Am I thinking correctly?

Thanks for your imput---
Dick
sodawater
sodawater
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October 22nd, 2019 at 10:52:36 PM permalink
DC bets moved against numbers are always working unless called off -- and you should never call them off. They win on any 7, including the come-out roll.

By the way, you can't bet DC on the come-out roll as in your example. The bet would be on the DP and would lose on the winner-7 at the same time your bets against the 4 and 5 would win on that same roll.
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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90crapsplayer66
October 22nd, 2019 at 11:18:03 PM permalink
I'd only have 2 Don'ts up, and add odds if the 7's are hitting your DP or DC for a loss too much. Like I wait until the 2nd roll after the point gets established before I make a DC bet yet I still get slaughtered with 7's. I'll have to rely more on winning odds on points already established on the Don'ts because I keep getting whiplashed by 7's before the Don't point gets established.

I realize some tables have a $10 minimum so double odds would be good, yet other tables will have a $25 minimum so you may not have a budget for odds.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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October 22nd, 2019 at 11:37:50 PM permalink
Quote: 90crapsplayer66


Am I thinking correctly?

Probably not since you are still not being precise in your terminology.

You are still not differentiating between a bet and an additional sum you wager as an odds bet.

You seem to be confused between turning the odds bets off and on and turning the underlying bets off and on.

7 is ALWAYS most likely to roll. Once your Don'tBet survives its initial roll, it is in your advantage.

Contract bets are just that, contracts,

Odds bets can be turned on and off but rarely should be.
7craps
7craps
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October 23rd, 2019 at 7:42:24 AM permalink
Quote: 90crapsplayer66

I put $30 on the Don't Pass. Next is the Come Out roll. A 6 rolls and becomes the point.
Next I put $30 on the Don't Come. The next roll is a 5--I move the Don't Come $30 to the 5.
Again I put $30 on the Don't Come and the next roll is a 4, so I move the $30 to the 4.
So now I have three numbers in play.
The next roll is 6 (the point) so I lose my $30 on the 6, and the Puck goes to off.


I see this:
 New game started
Beginning bankroll: $1000
------New shooter coming out----------
$30 bet on Don't Pass
Roll #1: 6
Point established
$30 bet on Don't Come
Roll #2: 5
$30 Don't Come bet moved to Don't Come 5
$30 bet on Don't Come
Roll #3: 4
$30 Don't Come bet moved to Don't Come 4
Roll #4: 6
Pass (point rolled)
Don't Pass bet lost $30
Bankroll decreased to $970 ($30 loss)
so far so good. JUST ONE LARGE ERROR
The DC (don't come bet) is a SELF-SERVICE bet. You make the bet yourself (or ask the dealer for help placing it)
once a point number is then rolled on the very next roll, the DEALER moves the DC bet to the don't come #, you are NOT ALLOWED to move that bet.
sure you can call 'no action' on it IF the number rolled is NOT a {2,3,7,11,12}
Quote: 90crapsplayer66

Now I've only got two numbers in action and I want a third.
So I put another $30 on the Don't Come,

as pointed out THIS IS AN ERROR.
on the come out roll one can NOT make a don't come bet. the Dealer should be correcting you right there (IF paying attention the layout instead of looking someplace else. BIG Boobs comes to mind)
Quote: 90crapsplayer66

and the next roll is a 7.
I know I lose my Don't PASS $30,

correct
Quote: 90crapsplayer66

but my confusion has to do with the 4 and the 5, each with $30.

a DC4 and a DC5 will win on ANY 7.
many get these 2 bets confused and think they are ONE bet, and they aint.
the DC (don't come) is a different bet then the DC4, DC5, DC6, DC8, DC9, DC10 bet.
think about it and what is the difference.

Quote: 90crapsplayer66

Do I lose these, or do I win $30 on the 4, and $30 on the 5? I think I win these because even though the Puck is off, those numbers are active, and the Come Out 7 came before the 4 and the 5.

winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 23rd, 2019 at 9:09:34 AM permalink
Thanks sodawater---and, the other question you answered for me (even though I didn't ask) had to do with after a 7 rolled followed by a new Come Out, where my new $30 bet goes--to the Don't Pass (not the DC).
Thanks
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 23rd, 2019 at 10:39:56 AM permalink
FleaStiff,
You addressed my "terminology" issue again. Let me clarify for you that when playing the Don't , you wrote "an additional sum you wager as an odds bet." This terminology in incorrect. You should have said "an additional sum you wager as a LAY bet" --not odds bet.

Also, you really are not addressing my question. No where in my question am I asking about making a "Lay" bet. No where in my question am I asking about "turning the odds bet (should be lay bet) off and on and turning the underlying bets off and on."

"7 is ALWAYS most likely to roll. Once your Don't bet survives its initial roll, it in your advantage. " I didn't ask this question but I do agree with you that I'm ahead on the Come Out roll when I get any number other than a 7 or 11.

My question has to do with what happens to the 4 and 5 Don't bets when on the Come Out roll the Point 6 rolls, so I lose the 6 bet, and the Puck goes to the off position. Now the question: On the next Come Out roll the 7 rolls...Do I win both the $30 on the 4, and on the 5, or do I lose these bets

Dick
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 23rd, 2019 at 11:19:57 AM permalink
Thanks 7craps,
Very clear and helpful.

I'm thinking about your question. You said " think about it and what is the difference." Well, I see the DC bar is a non-specific "number-to be" dependent on the Come Out roll. The DC4, DC 5, DC 6, DC 8, DC9, DC10, are specific numbers which all will win if a 7 rolls before they roll.
We don't want the 7 or 11 to roll when we're on the DC bar. After a point is set, we want to see a 7 roll. (I'm thinking you're looking for a different answer---not sure I've answered your question)
sodawater
sodawater
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90crapsplayer66
October 23rd, 2019 at 1:55:14 PM permalink
Quote: 90crapsplayer66

FleaStiff,
You addressed my "terminology" issue again. Let me clarify for you that when playing the Don't , you wrote "an additional sum you wager as an odds bet." This terminology in incorrect. You should have said "an additional sum you wager as a LAY bet" --not odds bet.

Also, you really are not addressing my question. No where in my question am I asking about making a "Lay" bet. No where in my question am I asking about "turning the odds bet (should be lay bet) off and on and turning the underlying bets off and on."

"7 is ALWAYS most likely to roll. Once your Don't bet survives its initial roll, it in your advantage. " I didn't ask this question but I do agree with you that I'm ahead on the Come Out roll when I get any number other than a 7 or 11.

My question has to do with what happens to the 4 and 5 Don't bets when on the Come Out roll the Point 6 rolls, so I lose the 6 bet, and the Puck goes to the off position. Now the question: On the next Come Out roll the 7 rolls...Do I win both the $30 on the 4, and on the 5, or do I lose these bets

Dick



You still seem to be a little confused.

When you make a Don't Come bet and a point number is rolled, you have the opportunity to "lay the odds" against that number if you choose. Your original post didn't mention odds, but laying the odds is different than a lay bet.

Say you make a DC bet of $30 and the next roll is 4. On a standard 3-4-5 odds table, you can now lay the odds with a maximum of $180 to win $90.

Note that if instead of making the DC bet, you simply wanted to lay the four. This is the opposite of a buy bet and if you wanted to win $90 you'd have to lay $184. If you do win and want to leave the bet up, it would be another $4. Some casinos only charge commission on winning lay bets; in that case you would lay $180 to win $86.

The lay bet and laying the odds are not related, although they are similar.

Your original question is very simple. Any DC bets moved to numbers win on ANY 7, regardless of whether it's a come-out roll.
Calder
Calder
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October 23rd, 2019 at 4:48:47 PM permalink
He is neither laying odds, nor making a lay bet. The only time he even mentioned them was in a subsequent post pointing out Fleastiff's error.
Quote: 90crapsplayer66

...I think I win these because even though the Puck is off, those numbers are active, and the Come Out 7 came before the 4 and the 5.
Am I thinking correctly?

Dick



Yes.
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 23rd, 2019 at 7:15:56 PM permalink
Thanks FleaStiff,
Your last sentence answers my question exactly.

I appreciate you trying to educate me on other related issues because at sometime or other, I'm apt to run into this situation.
When I play Craps at the Casino my usual bankroll is $300. So I wouldn't normally lay more than $30 to win $15, on my Don't Pass or Don't Come. Maybe I'd go as high as $50 to win $25 on the 4 or the 10,

I'm not inclined to Buy the 4 and/or the 10. Why? I don't know other than I prefer to keep my Right Way Place bets to one to two units.

Here's a question I have---Can I Buy bets when playing a Don't strategy? I don't see myself doing that.

Thanks for your ideas on these different subjects.
Dick
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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October 23rd, 2019 at 11:36:00 PM permalink
If I lose 2 Don't Pass with triple odds bets in a row on one shooter, I'll go rightside and bet PL with triple odds until the next shooter.
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 24th, 2019 at 5:29:25 PM permalink
ChumpChange,
I think your strategy is good to get out from under a shooter who keeps throwing "numbers." That 7 is supposed to roll every 5, 6, or 7 rolls, but sometimes it goes on forever, and you can widdle a nice bankroll away real fast. I find any strategy I use can be fabulous one day, and lousy the next---so being able to make adjustments in our play is critical.

I typically start with a bankroll of $300.

You mentioned triple odds with Don't play, and triple odds with "Rightside" play. Any particular reason for triple odds, or you feel you just need to make your bets payoff better. or you've had good luck in the past with triple odds.
Do you start off with triple odds or press your way up to triple odds? At some point then do you regress your odds?

Let me share a strategy I like

After I've built my bankroll up to say $400 - $425 I've got sufficient nerves to play this strategy:
Start with $10 on the Pass Line.
Come Out roll is 4 (example)
Place odds on Pass Line of $10 on Come Out 4. and also a $10 Place bet on the number 10 (just sort of token bets because I don't have much faith in these two numbers, although they roll more than I think they would)
Next, Place bet $30 on each of the 5, 6, 8, & 9. ($18 profit on 4 & 10, $42 profit on 5 & 9, and $35 profit on 6 & 8).
I'll play these bets about 4 rolls and then regress these bets down to a basic one unit bet, and just coast till the 7 rolls.

Of course, if the 7 appears right after the point is established you're out $150.....ouch!! and that does happen once in a while...
Depending on what numbers roll you'll even out your losses, break even, with 5 rolls. I also will take back $25 of the $30 bet as I hit each number--which limits my liability.

Practice Games
Game one First roll, 7 (bad start) Win Zero Reclaim from $30 Place bets lose $150.
zero


Game two 1st roll, 9 Reclaim from $30 Place bets
2nd thru 15th roll (good rolls) Win $312 $125 lose $50
7'd out on roll 16

Total Profit on two games------------------------------------------$112



Hope I haven't taken all your night deciphering this system

Dick
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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October 25th, 2019 at 12:08:20 AM permalink
My Don't Pass system involves increasing the odds bets. My odds progression is 3x, 3x, 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x, stay at 6x until a loss. I'm trying to be 3x, 4x, 5x table compatible with a max of 6x Don't odds. On WinCraps I've gotten 9 DP odds bets wins in a row a few times.
If I start with $480, I'll have 10x ($12 DP with $36 odds) bets. If I win to 5 bets ahead after a loss (+$240), I'll raise my bets to $18 DP with $54 odds.
If I win another 5 bets ahead after a loss (+$360 more), I'll raise my bets to $24 DP with $72 odds. I'll reduce my bets if I fall below those balance points, after a loss.
When I bet rightside, I don't progress the odds, I progress the PL bet. Maybe I'll learn a better way to progress PL odds, but I'm betting on 7-winners at that point.
If I win to 40 bets ahead, I might surpass $9,000 and quit. I've got a DP progression of $12, $18, $24, $36, $48, $60, $90, $120 with 5 bets ahead balances.

I saw somebody at the tables yesterday betting $305 on the DP and $900 odds. He had a rail of black and purple chips...that he bought in with. Somebody else kept whipping the dice down the table prompting dealers to say "cover your eyes!" and there'd be the endless throws of dice off the table. But he hit the 5 out of 6 numbers fire bet, that nobody bet on. That's not good to be Don't Passing on for long. I was betting Don't Come and came out about even on that shooter. If I bet the PL I would have made up what I was down, but nooo.

I'm playing on the $5-$1,000 table that has a $3,000 maximum odds bet. When the $15-$2,000 table is open, they allow odds bets to $6,000. At 10 times my strategy values, my highest DP odds bet would be $7,200 which pays $6,000 on the 6/8 which I assume is OK but I don't know. I could get to over $90,000 with +40 bets on that chart.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Oct 25, 2019
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 25th, 2019 at 9:59:57 AM permalink
ChumpChange,
Wow! You're in a bigger league than I. But I appreciate your words because it introduces me to thinking on a bigger scale. I might just practice your ideas at home where it's not going to cost me. I'll have to re-read your comments a couple more times.
Thanks for getting back to me,
Dick

PS--I'm sorry that the information on my two practice games at the bottom of my note got extremely hard to decipher because the numbers all ran together when I hit "Post."

and--

I noticed you responded to me after midnight......what dedication!
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 25th, 2019 at 4:33:06 PM permalink
ChumpChange,
Let me ask you, what usually is your opening DP bet. It sort of makes sense to me to start out with a reasonable/conservative DP bet ($10 to $30) so as not to jeopardize my entire bankroll. So, let's say your face DP bet is $30. You would lay $90 to earn 75 (3x), lay $120 to win $100 (4x), or lay $150 to win $125 (5x). I'm not following you on being table compatible for a max of 6x. I know different Casinos have different odds/lay rules. The Casino where I play has a 5x rule on all numbers.

Also, I'm not familiar with "WinCraps." You said on WinCraps you've gotten 9 DP odds bets wins in a row occasionally. That's excellent.
Do you dice set? I do and I think it gives me an advantage.

I have other questions but I'll let you address these so it doesn't get to forbidding a task to respond to me.
Thanks
Dick
unJon
unJon
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October 25th, 2019 at 5:20:32 PM permalink
Quote: 90crapsplayer66

ChumpChange,
Let me ask you, what usually is your opening DP bet. It sort of makes sense to me to start out with a reasonable/conservative DP bet ($10 to $30) so as not to jeopardize my entire bankroll. So, let's say your face DP bet is $30. You would lay $90 to earn 75 (3x), lay $120 to win $100 (4x), or lay $150 to win $125 (5x). I'm not following you on being table compatible for a max of 6x. I know different Casinos have different odds/lay rules. The Casino where I play has a 5x rule on all numbers.

Also, I'm not familiar with "WinCraps." You said on WinCraps you've gotten 9 DP odds bets wins in a row occasionally. That's excellent.
Do you dice set? I do and I think it gives me an advantage.

I have other questions but I'll let you address these so it doesn't get to forbidding a task to respond to me.
Thanks
Dick



x3 x4 x5 refers to the max odds for PL. on the donít the max is calculated not on the odds size but on the win size. So the max DP odds would be the amount that would win x3 x4 x5. That means a x6 odds bet on DP (since 6 times odds bet pays x3 x4 x5).
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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October 26th, 2019 at 2:47:37 AM permalink
3X odds: $30 DP + $90 odds pays $30 + $60 = $90 on the 5/9 average.
4x odds: $30 DP + $120 odds pays $30 + $80 = $110 on the 5/9 average
5x odds: $30 DP + $150 odds pays $30 + $100 = $130 on the 5/9 average
6x odds: $30 DP + $180 odds pays $30 + $120 = $150 on the 5/9 average

Buy-in = 10x ($30 +$90 = $120) = $1200
If I'm trying to win 5 bets ahead to get to the next level, it'd be 5x ($30 + $90 = $120) = +$600
If all my points were 5/9: a 6 in a row winning streak of $90 + $90 + $90 + $110 + $130 + $150 = $660 and I'd have enough to cover the overage for 2 higher bets at $40 DP with $120 odds (+$40 to original $120 bet).

I've got a DP progression of $12, $18, $24, $36, $48, $60, $90, $120 with 5 bets ahead balances. I don't have to think about offsetting odds bets because the payouts aren't even. For instance, a $40 DP odds bet can't be made on the 5, 6, 8, 9 because it won't payout in an even dollar amount. When I bet DP in $6 increments, a multiple odds bet will be divisible by $6 so it will pay a whole dollar number. When I switch over to the rightside after two "DP with odds" losses, I may have to offset the triple odds bet so the payout is OK, like rounding to the nearest $5 on the 6/8.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Oct 26, 2019
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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90crapsplayer66
October 26th, 2019 at 3:24:09 AM permalink
I try to set the dice, but it seems to not do what I want it to. I set for a 7 and get an 11. I set for a hard 6 and get a 7.
I was trying to set for a 5 (my point) and hit about ten 9's instead. So I spent yesterday trying to figure out my progression on that at home, $15 minimum though.

If you google WinCraps you can probably download it. There's an autobet feature which some pros around here use. I thought I registered my copy but that computer died so now I'm running an unregistered version. The game will start you with $1000, but that can be adjusted with another start point, like $100,000. When you press bets, it gives you a button to "press by a certain amount" which varies by the size of the bet. Like if the bet is under $50, a press is +$5/$6. If the bet is over $50, a press is +$25/$30; and on it goes. Around a $250/$300 bet the "press button" goes to +$100 PL/$125/$150 on the 6,8. Get to $1000/$1200 bet and the "press button" goes to +$500/$600. You could just fill in how much you want to press by on another edit box button below.
I find WinCraps likes to indulge me in winning streaks when I'm trying out a new strategy, then it goes dead cold forever. There's a ghost in the machine, and your results may vary. So when I won big on a Don't Pass strategy, that just feeds in to how dead the dead cold table was, not that the machine was indulging me on a winning streak, but what's the difference? I really have a hard time trying out strategies on WinCraps because I don't trust that the machine isn't just being totally oppositionally defiant disordered on me. I'd have to play on real tables to see if my luck changes.
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 26th, 2019 at 7:04:11 PM permalink
ChumpChange,
Thanks for spelling this out clearly in detail.....I do understand.

For my self, so I can see it, I've written this out including cost and wining values for numbers 4 & 10 and 6 and 8 as well. As I said my bankroll typically starts at $300, I could up that to a starting bankroll of $600, but I think I'll not be as aggressive in my odds/lay betting which will limit me to max out at the 3x odds/lay level. That make sense to you?

On another subject, I think winning numbers or losing numbers seem to rolls in cycles of threes. That being the case, what do you think of playing the Center Field as an auxiliary strategy--along with your Right Way or Don't system?

Appreciate your comments,
Dick
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 26th, 2019 at 7:33:56 PM permalink
ChumpChange,
Oh! I do know what WinCraps is---too impersonal. I'll skip this in favor of the old fashion Craps table---more comraderie (spell that), more fun and laughs.
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 26th, 2019 at 7:39:43 PM permalink
unJon,
Thanks for getting back to me. Between you and ChumpChange I feel confident understanding the Odds/Lay betting.

Dick
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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October 27th, 2019 at 5:52:35 AM permalink
I've tried betting the Field and it's possible to double-up a $300 buy-in with 7 wins ahead on a $15 table. However, I'd only try that if I was throwing 2's and 12's. The House Advantage on a double-double payout is too high in most parts; a double-triple payout is recommended. The numbers that don't win will bring you down faster, so the Field Bet is typically a bad play because you'll go through your money faster. I'd rather spend an hour at the table betting the line or the PB 6/8 than 10 minutes betting the Field.
90crapsplayer66
90crapsplayer66
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October 27th, 2019 at 11:04:02 AM permalink
ChumpChange,
On youtube I watched a video called "Pass, No Pass" by Al Kaufman ("The Professor"). I think you'd find this interesting--maybe you've seen this already.
I took this strategy and transferred it to playing Center Field. Check it out and see what you think.
Dick
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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October 27th, 2019 at 12:47:27 PM permalink
One thing that I'm being reminded of more and more is to keep the HA down by taking odds on bigger bets. Maybe my progressions can beat that in the short term. A lot depends on how the numbers hit, but the HA is always there and will nibble at your bankroll the longer you play. I'm not a fan of semi-Martingales that go to the table limit, because that sometimes leads to a total bust in 8 throws. I'm a fan of trying to win 10+ bets ahead in a day. If I buy-in for 25 units, I still run a real risk of going bust before I ever get far into positive numbers. If I lose 25 bets one day, but win 10 bets ahead the next day, I'll be even using my progression.

Other players at the table buy-in for far more than me and make many more bets per shooter. If I'm down to my last $100 in the rail, I could get reckless and try to double-up on the Field on a $5 table when it's my turn to shoot, if I'm not throwing point-7's like I'm cursed. It's certainly something I should think about since I'm already down 10 units. I've won 3 sets of 7 bets on the DC in an hour a few times so that's my initial go-to bet when the PL doesn't pan out right away.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Oct 27, 2019

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