Craps in Oklahoma
EDIT: Okay, I've read August 2nd in one or two places, but then I just found this article saying it won't be until October, so I don't know.
Dealers have been trained, tables are in the casinos, all that's left is final approval from Department of the Interior. Unfortunately that could still be a couple more months.
This is Oklahoma House Bill 3375, which is what allows Craps to take place inside of Tribal Casinos:
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2017-18%20ENR/hB/HB3375%20ENR.PDF
The first thing we know is that the game may not be house banked:
Quote:"Non-house-banked table games" means any table game, including
but not limited to those table games involving a wheel, ball or
dice, operated in a nonelectronic environment in which the tribe has
no interest in the outcome of the game, including games played in
tournament formats and games in which the tribe collects a fee from
the player for participating, and all bets are placed in a common
pool or pot from which all player winnings, prizes and direct costs
are paid. As provided in this section, administrative fees may be
charged by the tribe against any common pool or pot in an amount
equal to any fee paid the state; provided, that the tribe may seed
any pool or pot as it determines necessary from time to time.
In other words, it seems like the tribe can charge whatever percent of the prize pool that it wants (similar to a rake in poker) provided they are paying the State of Oklahoma the same amount, or more.
This paragraph really confuses me:
Quote:B. The Tribe agrees, subject to the enforcement and exclusivity
provisions of its Compact, to pay to the State ten percent (10%) of
the monthly net win of the common pool(s) or pot(s) from which
prizes are paid for non-house-banked table games. The Tribe is
entitled to keep an amount equal to State payments from the common
pool(s) or pot(s) as part of its cost of operating the games. For
all purposes, such payment shall be deemed an exclusivity and fee
payment under paragraph 2 of subsection A of Part 11 of the StateTribal
Gaming Compact between the electing Tribe and the State.
Reports claim that the state expects to generate over twenty million dollars in revenue as a result.
It uses the language ten percent of the monthly, "Net Win," so I don't really know what that could mean if it's not house banked. I can't tell if it means 10% of what the players themselves win or if it means 10% of what the house rakes. I'm guessing the former because the bill then goes on to state that The Tribe is allowed to keep an amount equal to the payments to the state.
If I had to guess, the tribe has to pay the state 10% of whatever players win and are themselves entitled to keep as much as 10% of what players win, thereby resulting in a 20% rake. I don't know how you would really apply that to Craps, though. I might try to call the casinos and see if I can get more information on Monday.
The only thing I know is that it's player-banked, but beyond that, I can't wrap my head around how you can apply that to Craps. That's especially true when it comes to center action type bets.
Sounds like the California card room situation, where there’s a big player at the table who acts as the banker.Quote: OkieBlake7I'm hearing that the craps and roulette in Oklahoma will not be against the house but will be against the other players.
Quote: DJTeddyBearSounds like the California card room situation, where there’s a big player at the table who acts as the banker.
Indeed, but don't the players in California pay a straight fee of $1 per hand to the house? I don't think the casino rake has anything to do with the amount won on either side, does it? This seems like it might be more like a poker rake.
Some casinos wave the ante, which basically means they are paying it for you. They still have to account for that. By doing that it works like a constant promotion, they are basically taking your money from the player pool, and putting it in the ante money.
Not sure if that all makes sense.
I think the state is trying to get its money rather than let the casino get it. This appears to be a "the money goes into a pool, the state takes its cut and then the casino can do any math it wants to do". This avoids letting the casino be 'creative' prior to the state's getting its pint.
I'll be there in a couple weeks for an event, and I'll try to get some more info on how it will all work (if no one here gets there before me).
I'm going to one of the casinos to check it out this weekend.
Quote: TigerWuCraps and Roulette are now live in Oklahoma.
I'm going to one of the casinos to check it out this weekend.
Roulette is live at Riverwind Casino, but craps isn't. I only observed for a few seconds as I walked by but I didn't notice any 50-cent chips which was unusual as I've never seen any Chickasaw gaming property waive the ante. (Perhaps there is a loophole and the ante only applied when their version of roulette was card based?)
I'll be at Winstar (another Chickasaw property) the 22nd and 23rd and will check on what is available there if anyone is interested.
Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette
Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20
Max Bets
$500 on outside 1 to 1 bets
$250 on outside 2 to 1 bets
$10 any way to the number inside
The following sign was at Riverwind only -
"Any spin that does not complete 4 rotations around the wheel will be considered a No Spin"
Winstar was the only one of the group that was setting up for craps and I saw 3 tables.
If after paying the ante, the player has a winning 7/11 or losing 2,3,12, then the player must pay another ante to post the next pass line or DP bet.
A push on the DP is a decision and will require another ante.
After the ante is paid, if a point is established, the bettor may make any additional bets, whether the bets be Come bets, place bets, Hardways, field, etc, and may continue to post additional wagers, without paying another ante, until the player has a 7 out.
The game will be house banked, not player banked.
I have spoken to quite a few players from central Texas and surrounding areas who will not be deterred by this ante requirement. Their logic is that they would spend more money than the ante by flying to Las Vegas or driving to Shreveport, LA.
Quote: Puckerbutt
Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette
Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20
Those minimums aren't bad at all for Roulette, even with the ante. Still terrible odds, but at least it's cheap.
Doesn't sound promising for the $5 bettor - an even-money bet becomes 5-6, with a house edge (assuming a double-zero wheel) of 13.16%. $10 bets (10-11) drop it to 9.57%, and $25 bets (25-26) drop it to 7.09%.Quote: PuckerbuttNewcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette
Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20
Max Bets
$500 on outside 1 to 1 bets
$250 on outside 2 to 1 bets
$10 any way to the number inside
You think that's bad? $5 on a single number (the payout is now 175-6, or just over 29-1) has a house edge of 20.61%.
Keep in mind that these numbers are based on making only one bet per spin.
Or does "ante" not mean what I think it means - a fee for the privilege of betting, since this is how the casino makes its money?
Questions:Quote: klimate10According to the person in charge at Winstar, there will be an ante per come out roll. The ante is $1.
If after paying the ante, the player has a winning 7/11 or losing 2,3,12, then the player must pay another ante to post the next pass line or DP bet.
A push on the DP is a decision and will require another ante.
After the ante is paid, if a point is established, the bettor may make any additional bets, whether the bets be Come bets, place bets, Hardways, field, etc, and may continue to post additional wagers, without paying another ante, until the player has a 7 out.
1. Does everybody pay the ante on the comeout, or just the shooter?
2. If (1) is "everybody," then can somebody avoid the ante by not betting on comeout rolls?
3. If (2) is "no," then how do they enforce this? Do the dealers put markers in front of the players that have paid the ante?
Quote: ThatDonGuy
Or does "ante" not mean what I think it means - a fee for the privilege of betting, since this is how the casino makes its money?
Yes, you have to pay the ante/fee with every coup.
Quote: ThatDonGuy
Questions:
1. Does everybody pay the ante on the comeout, or just the shooter?
2. If (1) is "everybody," then can somebody avoid the ante by not betting on comeout rolls?
3. If (2) is "no," then how do they enforce this? Do the dealers put markers in front of the players that have paid the ante?
1. Everybody pays the ante.
2. No.
3. Not explained.
if that is true then if the dice roll slowly,Quote: NoncompeteHave all of the Oklahoma converted to real craps and roulette? Also, IIRC the casinos only charge a $1 ante on the come out roll,
say 1 roll per minute = 60 rolls per hour
then one should, on average, expect to lose about $18 just from that fee.
IF the dice roll faster, say 90 rolls per hour, the average loss jumps to about $27 per hour just from that fee.
*****
I doubt that will last long.
Casino Morongo, in SoCal, had a losers pool and that went away
as did the $1 to play idea...
and I hear that was many years ago.
they been there done that. and the state of CA is RICH!!
maybe the type of players in that part of the country (USA)
have lots o money to burn
makes complete sense
well, no luck needed
Sally
Quote: mustangsally
I doubt that will last long.
Casino Morongo, in SoCal, had a losers pool and that went away
as did the $1 to play idea...
and I hear that was many years ago.
they been there done that. and the state of CA is RICH!!
Oklahoma has had ante games for several decades now. They're not going anywhere unless they change the laws. California probably got rid of it because they were so close to Vegas and the competition was too strong. Oklahoma has no decent competition unless you want to fly somewhere or drive halfway across the country.
Getting screwed in Oklahoma must be more valuable to them than a trip to a real casino offering decent odds.Quote: klimate10
I have spoken to quite a few players from central Texas and surrounding areas who will not be deterred by this ante requirement. Their logic is that they would spend more money than the ante by flying to Las Vegas or driving to Shreveport, LA.
Quote: TigerWuOklahoma has had ante games for several decades now. They're not going anywhere unless they change the laws. California probably got rid of it because they were so close to Vegas and the competition was too strong. Oklahoma has no decent competition unless you want to fly somewhere or drive halfway across the country.
Is Las Vegas the only decent competition? The closest "real craps/bj" casino from OKC is only 2.5 hours away (Wichita). Of course there is no competition nearby, but it does give you the games smarter gamblers are actually looking for. The nearest markets with some competition look to be closer to 5 hours away.
Quote: NoncompeteOne thing that really irritates me is the dealers at one casino in OK tell players that OK is a “pay to play state” and the ante is a tax that goes to the state. Total BS.
I had understood this to be correct, that the state does get the ante money, that they do audit the games to ensure it's collected. State laws and gaming compacts do set the rates. The dealers where I played kept track with dummy chips each hand, and when they reached a round number, dropped a counting chip worth that in the bill box (about every 3 hands on a full table).
So what part of this is BS and the casino keeps the money? The activity of taxing the games itself, the amount, gaming tracking compliance, something else?
It's definitely a ripoff, in that a percentage of profits from casino wins in other jurisdictions goes to the govt of that jurisdiction, and yet the casino still SOMEHOW (sarcasm) manages to keep the lights on.
So the surcharge effectively raises the HE on all games, not just for the players, but also the profit expectation for the casino, because they're not taking the govt cut out of the win like most others.
The craps tables were packed elbow to elbow all the way around. I couldn't get close enough to see the minimums or how the ante worked.
Roulette tables were $5 minimum, $1000 maximum, and a little less crowded. I stood there watching for about ten minutes and still couldn't figure out the ante. I think the dealer was somehow keeping track and you paid it upon coloring up maybe?
Quote: tringlomaneIs Las Vegas the only decent competition? The closest "real craps/bj" casino from OKC is only 2.5 hours away (Wichita). Of course there is no competition nearby, but it does give you the games smarter gamblers are actually looking for. The nearest markets with some competition look to be closer to 5 hours away.
Fair enough, but I don't think most casual gamblers are going to put in a 3-5 hour car ride to save a couple points on the house edge.
ngQuote: TigerWuYes, you have to pay the ante/fee with every coup.
What if a point is won with other bets are still working (Come or DC with odds, place bets or hard ways)? Will an ante have to be paid again even if no further wagering is made? If the ante is not payed, what happens to the working bets already up?
What about making strictly prop bets w/o Pass/DP line bets after the come-out?
I'm going this weekend and would like to play craps, but if this ante business is really $1 per come-out, I'll be sticking to poker.
I get around this steep vig (20% on $5 pass line bet) by only playing place bets. I use the $10 Table Strategy shown by Color Up on youtube. Sure, I don't get to roll but, I'm a crappy roller anyway. Also, while everybody is pitching in their $1 chips for every come out pass line winner / loser, I'm cooling my jets with those chips safely in my rail. Putting $36 in play at once makes the vig go down to 2.7% - which I can live with.
How have I done with this strategy? First few times - at casinos without the ante - up & down. Busted my $300 bankroll once - usually in the + or - $150 range. First time I tried it an Winstar, two bad shooters then caught a hot shooter & walked away + $900!
