History Question

A couple nights ago I was watching an old movie: Flame of the Barbary Coast. John Wayne is a rancher-turned casino owner in 1906 San Francisco. I noticed the craps tables didn't have the little pyramids on the walls which got me wondering when they were added. I couldn't find any info on-line so I figured maybe somebody whose been playing the game longer than I have might know.

Quote: TumblingBones

A couple nights ago I was watching an old movie: Flame of the Barbary Coast. John Wayne is a rancher-turned casino owner in 1906 San Francisco. I noticed the craps tables didn't have the little pyramids on the walls which got me wondering when they were added. I couldn't find any info on-line so I figured maybe somebody whose been playing the game longer than I have might know.

I don't know the answer, but when it comes to historical technology, or even basic gambling stuff, it is hard to know for sure, sometimes movies are just to lazy to be historically accurate. For example maybe they did have the liners in that movie, but the movie people just did not know how to properly assemble the table. I know when you buy tables online you often have to add those side walls on (if you are talking about what I think you are), so maybe they simply assembled it wrong or didn't know better. But, any gambling movie, that was not filmed in the time period in which it takes, I would not regard as historically accurate. Really most movie genres for that matter.

I have never seen a craps table without them, but I am 26, and I almost never play craps, so my observations are of little value.

Movies often are as realistic as possible given time and budget constraints, but if the public expects poker in the movie its hard to force them to watch a Faro game.

If a scene is shot on location a window with 'established 1950" painted on it may be sprayed out with water soluble black ink, but they won't construct a building just for a realistic shot.

Craps is legally known in Vegas as 'bank craps' because the house takes all bets. Originally even a constructed craps layout was only a Right Way game. Along San Francisco's Barbary Coast a pyramid studded table would be of little concern. Nobody would fuss with those pyramid shaped studs, a Mickey Finn and a Knife would be more likely.

Quote: FleaStiff

Movies often are as realistic as possible given time and budget constraints , but if the public expects poker in the movie its hard to force them to watch a Faro game.

If a scene is shot on location a window with 'established 1950" painted on it may be sprayed out with water soluble black ink, but they won't construct a building just for a realistic shot.

Craps is legally known in Vegas as 'bank craps' because the house takes all bets. Originally even a constructed craps layout was only a Right Way game. Along San Francisco's Barbary Coast a pyramid studded table would be of little concern. Nobody would fuss with those pyramid shaped studs, a Mickey Finn and a Knife would be more likely.

That is simply not true.

I am working on my Masters in Military History, and am also in the military. So to keep strictly within my area of knowledge, I have yet to see a film that is accurate (some do a far better job), most get many minor logistical things wrong from certain units wearing certain patches at certain times, to the type of weapons various people use and carry (some being off by decades).

As for gambling, another topic I know a lot about (specific historical periods not so much), many movies get it wrong, not so much because its hard to do the research, but because its boring. Nobody is going to make a movie about somebody counting cards for 12 hours a day making about a 10 dollar an hour return.

But. the bigger point is for any historical scenario. I also have a lot of family in the movie industry, and their goal is to maximize entertainment while minimizing expenses. For example on one Vietnam Film (I am not going to say which one) I know somebody who was an Advisor, He pointed out that M16s they were using for a past scene (something like 10 years before the main story), did not actually exist then, it was an earlier version of that rifle they would be using. The producers basically said, why would we spend millions getting and altering weapons on a scene that will probably only pop up for a few mins, and that 99.9999% of the population will not notice or care about.

I like Military History (and gambling), but you like gambling and you know a lot about it, you noticed something that 99.9999999% of people would not notice, why would they spend thousands of dollars finding and buying that component for several historic craps tables if they did not need to?

Now with CGI it is easier, you can have an actor hold a stick and add in any weapons you want. In the 1940s making movies, they had far more limited options, if their table was missing something, you cannot simply add it in with Computers. So of you were making a movie in the 1940s that took place 50 years earlier, when it comes to a lot of things, it would not be worth trying to acquire the exact year replica, especially for a piece that most of the audience did not know or care about, gambling was far more restrictive then, so the vast majority of Americans probably had no clue what a craps table looked like,

I was under the impression that the casinos introduced the pyramids on a craps table within the last 20 years or so. I'd be fairly confident the pyramids weren't around in 1906.

Quote: RS

I was under the impression that the casinos introduced the pyramids on a craps table within the last 20 years or so. I'd be fairly confident the pyramids weren't around in 1906.

Comment I saw from Frank.Scoblete's craps book implied they came in around the 60s or 70s, but he didn't give a date.

Anybody heard from him lately?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Anybody heard from him lately?

At Amazon sorted by 'newest arrivals' he hasnt had a book out since 2015.

He has quite a list there. I've never read any of his books, one glance at the "type" they seem to be from the title and cover art just means I'd never give them a chance. Could be they are entertaining. Give him credit for being able to sell a book.

Quote: TumblingBones

I noticed the craps tables didn't have the little pyramids on the walls which got me wondering when they were added.

One photo in this collection shows an early craps table, circa 1910-1020, with pyramids.

Museum of Gaming History

Quote: Tanko

One photo in this collection shows an early craps table, circa 1910-1020, with pyramids.

... and another photo shows a 1940’s table without.

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

... and another photo shows a 1940’s table without.

Everything takes time to spread and catch on. I did an image search for "vintage craps table" and the impression I get is that the pyramids started to appear around 1920 and were pretty well adopted by all casinos by the mid-50s (maybe earlier).
As side note... I came across this 1945 photo of Bogart which is IMHO a classic!

The Museum's website doesn't provide any more info than the approx. date of
the craps table's structural build. Any layouts and pyramids are suspect.
For example, some of these tables may have been resurfaced with pyramids
added in order to promote their sale at an auction, long before the Museum
obtained the item.
Some interesting wall ribbings look much more vintage than our pyramids which
would have to have withstood almost no modifications for 100 years??!

Quote: Tanko

Museum of Gaming History

in the 4th photo, a "beat my shake" bet?

I have no idea what that means. The only other bets seem to be Line, Field, and Over/Under 7. Simple for the dealer and perhaps boring for the players?

Bogart has 6 and 9 rather than six and nine.

It is always interesting to browse thru archives and see how things really were. Divorces usually meant Reno, not Las Vegas. Originally the 'eye in the sky' were just that... eyes, not cameras. And they were the eyes of expert crossroaders who learned their trade by cheating or getting cheated.
My first trip to Vegas involved headlines about high temperatures and bodies showing up in the dessert from the swing shift where blackjack crews could cheat using "sleeves" that were hollow stacks painted red on the outside but filled with black chips from the table's blackjack bank.

I understand a total of five bodies showed up. It was second swing shift because otherwise there would be customers around who might have noticed and spoken up.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Comment I saw from Frank.Scoblete's craps book implied they came in around the 60s or 70s, but he didn't give a date.

Anybody heard from him lately?

He was on one of the Vegas/gambiling podcasts a few months ago.

I'm still not sure I believe his particular brand of bull, but he was an entertaining guest.

Anyone who has access to "Exhibit CAA", just read the very bottom of page 24. That's all you need to know about FS.

antiquegamblingchips.com has a bunch of photos of actors (famous and otherwise) gambling in old movies. One interesting one is of the Ritz Brothers at a craps table in a 1946 film:

Not much there in the way of prop bets. Blackjack and roulette haven't changed much in the last 100 years but craps seems to keep evolving.

BJ, as a game hasn't really been around 100 years in this country. It also has gone thru tremendous changes. Used to be single deck dealt to last card, used to be able to split Aces more than once, a 21 on split Aces was a Blackjack, dealer used to stay on all 17s, BJ used to pay 3-2 at all times, many side bets have been introduced. A have various offshoots of BJ- Spanish21, SuperFun, Double Exposure and many more.

Wow, I didn't know the pyramids were introduced so long ago. I would'a been sure they weren't around in the 70's or 80's, although, I don't think I was even alive yet.

The special collections area of UNLV's Library has digitized many (but not all) of their photos. Here's an image from the Las Vegas Club circa 1930's:



Note that I have also come across images from the first decade of the 20th century as well as mid-century showing smooth walled craps tubs, so designs varied (early tubs only had one dealer).

By the 70's I'm pretty sure the design was standardized. Here's an image from the UNLV Library of the interior of the Stardust in the first half the 1970's that shows the modern tub with pyramids:

My guess is that the tub design actually standardized in the late 50's when the "modern" game became the standard, but I don't have any documentation. I'll bet the Paulson Company archives (if they exist) would be an interesting topic to research regarding the development of craps tables and equipment.

ADDENDUM: Here's an image of the interior of the Flamingo from the second half of the 40's that shows craps tables with pyramids in use at the first "modern" casino resort.

This image is also from the digital collection at UNLV.

The UNLV collection is a great resource (not to mention a great time-waster when you don't feel like working). All sorts of good stuff like this photo of a craps game in a swimming pool circa 1954. Guess I misunderstood the meaning of "floating craps game" :)

Quote: TumblingBones

The UNLV collection is a great resource (not to mention a great time-waster when you don't feel like working). All sorts of good stuff like this photo of a craps game in a swimming pool circa 1954. Guess I misunderstood the meaning of "floating craps game" :)

perfect, now I have something to do for my last hour.

Quote: TumblingBones

The UNLV collection is a great resource (not to mention a great time-waster when you don't feel like working). All sorts of good stuff like this photo of a craps game in a swimming pool circa 1954. Guess I misunderstood the meaning of "floating craps game" :)

Off topic but Cosmo has some great historical photos along with a short video loop in the hallways of the 2nd floor. Worth checking out if there and you have a few minutes.

I thought craps gained it popularity during World War II, played among soldiers. However, its roots come from the very similar game of Hazard, which dates back hundreds of years in England.

Great archives find, Aye! Interesting that the Ritz Bros movie still is smooth walled, and yet that 30's pic and the 40's pic both have the pyramids.

Google has many images of craps history. It has enough to adequately answer questions regarding equipment and eras.

Quote: RS

I was under the impression that the casinos introduced the pyramids on a craps table within the last 20 years or so. I'd be fairly confident the pyramids weren't around in 1906.

I have been in the business for 33 years. The pyramids (we call it the alligator) were there before I started dealing.

Quote: Wizard

I thought craps gained it popularity during World War II, played among soldiers. However, its roots come from the very similar game of Hazard, which dates back hundreds of years in England.

That certainly seems to be the source of many of the rules of the modern game but as far as I can tell, the oldest forms of gambling known to man are dice-based. Wikipedia mentions dice games dating back to 3000 BC. My user image for this forum is of a Roman-era die that looks identical in design to the ones used today:

Quote: TumblingBones

My user image for this forum is of a Roman-era die that looks identical in design to the ones used today:

Identical, perhaps, except for the specific arrangement of the numbered faces and the orientation of the pips on each face. It is very unlikely that you can find in play in a legitimate U.S. casino a die that you can orient like the one in your image: with the 3 on top and the 2 to the right of the 6. And any die you find in a legitimate casino should have the two rows of pips for the 6 pointing toward the 3 and 4 faces, not toward the 2.

Yes, minor items from a historic perspective, but they might help you recognize some bogus modern dice.

BTW, I have two items I received as gifts, a brass paperweight and a small storage box, both of which are designed to look a bit like dice. The paperweight has the same error in the direction of the pip rows for the 6, and the box doesn't even have opposite faces totalling seven.

Damn! I never noticed the discrepancies. Good eye and attention to detail!

I believe it was mid 60's that they all started using the pyramids although they had been around forever.....i dealt in the underground in early 70's on tables that still didn't have them.

“When Caesar made the critical decision to take his victorious army across the Rubicon against the edict of Rome, he took his retort from the lexicon of the dice player “Tacta alea est” The die is cast.”

“Sophocles reported that dice were invented by Palamedes, who taught the soldiers at the seige of Troy three thousand years ago. “

From Scarne on Dice, by John Scarne

The definitive book on the subject of dice, covering everything from the origin of dice games, to modern games, math, crooked dice, cheaters and more.

Quote: Tanko

“... he took his retort from the lexicon of the dice player “Tacta alea est” The die is cast.”

Once again, I'm making a trivial comment in regard to the topic at hand, but hey, I'm nerdy. I think the Latin in the quote should be, "Alea iacta est." (Typo of T for I and using non-standard word order.)

Quote: TumblingBones

Damn! I never noticed the discrepancies. Good eye and attention to detail!

Now you know why mirrors are in the craps table. It lets the crew check for "tops' which are misnumbered dice.