JustLuke27
JustLuke27
Joined: Nov 9, 2017
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November 9th, 2017 at 4:28:00 AM permalink
Hey - I am not as advanced in the world of craps as you guys are - so my question should be quite simple..

So that me and my wife can roll dice I have tried to engineer a more competitive version of two player of street craps - but I just wanted to get some expert advice on the chances / if the game is stacked in favour of one side..?

This is how it goes- (basically the same as usual but with a roll each)

One dice each and one roll each to decide who starts.. highest number starts.

On the first roll - if you hit a 7 or 11 you automatically win.
2, 3 or 12 you automatically loose.
If you hit any other number, thats your point
If you hit a 7 on any roll after that / after your first roll you loose.

You take it in turns to roll until someone hits their number to win or 7 to loose.

I get that the deciding roll is a 1/6 chance for both players- so that’s fair..

After that it’s a 17% chance of hitting the 7 on the first roll- but what does that do to the second rollers chances and how could I effect the following rolls. /does taking turns completely mess the whole thing up?

Obviously its preferable to win the 1/6 roll to get the advantage but if you both roll a point on your first roll - is it just the case that whoever rolls first just has a way better chance?

Apologies if this has been covered somewhere else on the forum too - i did have a look but couldn't get the info

Thanks ever so

Luke

London, UK
odiousgambit
odiousgambit 
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November 9th, 2017 at 5:08:27 AM permalink
all the previous is fine [edit: though I don't get what it is that you changed]

Quote: JustLuke27

how could I effect the following rolls. /does taking turns completely mess the whole thing up?

The dice have no memory, previous rolls have no affect.

Quote:

Obviously its preferable to win the 1/6 roll to get the advantage but if you both roll a point on your first roll - is it just the case that whoever rolls first just has a way better chance?

I don't get your question here.

Just as a PS, it is player advantage to never be the shooter and then accept as much action as possible in Street Craps.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Joeman
Joeman
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Thanks for this post from:
JustLuke27
November 9th, 2017 at 5:55:30 AM permalink
Welcome to the Forums, Luke!

Quote: JustLuke27

You take it in turns to roll until someone hits their number to win or 7 to loose.

I get that the deciding roll is a 1/6 chance for both players- so that’s fair..

After that it’s a 17% chance of hitting the 7 on the first roll- but what does that do to the second rollers chances and how could I effect the following rolls. /does taking turns completely mess the whole thing up?

Do you mean you are alternating shooters after every single roll (not decision)? So, let me see if I understand...

After determining the first shooter, let's say it is you, you roll and establish 8 as a point. Then, does Mrs. Luke shoot? If she rolls an 8, she wins, a 7 and you win, any other number she passes the dice back to you? Sounds like a fair game to me.

Now, in this scenario, the first shooter definitely has an advantage since he is more likely to win than to lose on the come out roll, and the second player is more likely to lose than win rolling for the point. However, since the shooting order is determined fairly, the overall game has no edge to either participant.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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Thanks for this post from:
JustLuke27
November 9th, 2017 at 6:43:02 AM permalink
That sounds exactly like the pass bet in craps. 1.41% house edge.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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November 9th, 2017 at 6:52:33 AM permalink
How does the wagering work Luke? Does each player put up the same amount prior to the come-out, or does one player "Bank"?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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JustLuke27
November 9th, 2017 at 7:05:40 AM permalink
If it is just taken in turns, with no wagering or payoffs based on the point, I think the player going second actually has an advantage:
- The most likely outcome of the first roll is a "point" (26/36 outcomes).
- The most common outcome of the next (and subsequent) roll is a "7",
- If the first roller in each round craps out, the second roller wins without rolling.

However, since the first roller is determined randomly, the game is fair (if this is how is works).
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Joeman
Joeman
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Thanks for this post from:
JustLuke27
November 9th, 2017 at 7:06:07 AM permalink
To me it sounds like both participants put up an equal wager, and alternate who is the "bank" after each roll of the dice. As I understand the description... after shooting order is determined, the Player A rolls his come out roll, and Player B is the bank. If a 7 or 11 is rolled, Player A wins. If 2, 3, or 12 is rolled, Player B wins. If a point is rolled, the dice are passed to Player B.

Player B must now roll for the point that Player A had just established, and Player A is the bank. If Player B rolls the point he wins, and if he rolls a 7 Player A wins. If he throws any other number, the dice are passed back to Player A and Player B is now the bank. Lather, rinse, repeat until either the point or 7 is rolled.

Is that correct, Luke?

In this case, I maintain that whoever shoots 1st has a decided advantage, but since the shooting order is determined fairly, the overall game is fair.

EDIT: Aw, man, Looks like Aye & I are on different sides of the fence as to which shooter has the advantage. Now someone has to do the math!

2nd EDIT: After a 2nd read, it looks like perhaps Aye & I differ in our understanding of the rules. Hopefully OP will chime in with a bit of clarification.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
JustLuke27
JustLuke27
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November 9th, 2017 at 8:00:06 AM permalink
Wow - thank you all for the warm welcome.. its nice here..

So the way we have been running it is as AYE thought

(words taken and adapted from JOEMANs post)

Both participants put up an equal wager, and alternate who is the "bank" after each roll of the dice. After shooting order is determined, the Player A rolls his come out roll, and Player B is the bank. If a 7 or 11 is rolled, Player A wins. If 2, 3, or 12 is rolled, Player B wins. If a point is rolled, the dice are passed to Player B.

Player B now rolls as if its a new game - so aiming to hit the 7, 11 to win or a point. or 2…loose….etc

So If they win or loose on that roll - its done and decided -
If they hit a point - its basically a race for the point, taking it in turns

as opposed to

Player B must now roll for the point that Player A had just established, and Player A is the bank. If Player B rolls the point he wins.

Would it make it fairer to play as JOEMAN suggests with both players aiming for the same number…? for example - on the roll to decide who goes first - those numbers are added together to determine the point (assuming its not 2,3,12,7,11) then its taken in turns?

Re: betting - we have been playing small one pound a play / both in for the same amount - (the benefit of this is those pound coins don’t blow away in the wind haha)


Thanks again for everyones help !
Joeman
Joeman
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November 9th, 2017 at 8:07:57 AM permalink
Thanks, Luke. I understand it now. It is a fair game either way you play it by virtue of the fact that the shooting order is determined in a fair way.

Although, it might be an interesting math exercise to determine which player has the advantage once the order is determined.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
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November 9th, 2017 at 4:27:15 PM permalink
Quote: Joeman

Thanks, Luke. I understand it now. It is a fair game either way you play it by virtue of the fact that the shooting order is determined in a fair way.

Although, it might be an interesting math exercise to determine which player has the advantage once the order is determined.



P1 first rollP2 first rollP1 winP2 win
7,11 2/9
Craps 1/9
Point7,11 4/27
PointCraps2/27
4,104,101/36 x 10/211/36 x 11/21
4,105,91/27 x 5/111/27 x 6/11
4,106,85/108 x 10/235/108 x 13/23
5,94,101/27 x 50/991/27 x 49/99
5,95,94/81 x 15/314/81 x 16/31
5,96,85/81 x 150/3235/81 x 173/323
6,84,105/108 x 110/2075/108 x 97/207
6,85,95/81 x 165/3235/81 x 158/323
6,86,825/324 x 30/6125/324 x 31/61


The first player has a 51.183729% chance of winning.


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