Overcoming table minimums - can you bet the Pass and Don't Pass line on the come out roll?

I'll admit I am still rather new to craps, thus the questions...

...and because I am rather new, I always hunt for the $5 tables.

Question 1: Rather than hunt the strip for $5 tables, couldn't I overcome the $10 minimum by just betting $10 on the Pass and $10 on the Don't Pass in order to establish the point? I realize there would be a $10 loss on a 12, but aside from that it actually seems to favor my plays.

What I mean is that on a $5 table I would normally max out on my odds bet (let's just say $25 on the 6 or 8), in which case, if I hit, I would win $35 (risking a total of $30 to win $35). However, if I was on a $10 table and played $10 on the Pass and $10 on the Don't Pass and 6 or 8 was established, then I could bet that same $30 that I would bet on the $5 table AS ODDS, thus winning $36 off of a $30 risk (because the PASS/DON'T PASS cancel themselves out). Am I wrong on that?

Question 2: Do the odds bets on a $10 minimum table start at $10, or can you bet a $5 odds bet?

Thanks,

Ballfour

I have never seen a casino refuse doey-dont, BUT there's a chance you will get a rating of $0 on your pass and DP bets.

Regarding question two, it depends. It's not something you see too often, but I have seen it allowed. Simply ask, this is not an embarrassing question.

Please just accept the $10 PL, not betting max odds. Betting both ways is just foolish and that extra $5 on the PL is as good as any independent bet you will find on the craps layout.

You typically can't bet $5 odds on a $10 table, but I've heard you can in some places.

Yes you can bet $10/$10 on P/DP. But you're much better off betting $10 pass + odds, even if you have to bet a little less on odds. But the extra $5 on pass shouldn't be a big problem, unless you have a very limited budget.

Hey Ballfour, and welcome to the forums. Everyone who gets introduced to craps eventually thinks about this, because they think that 12 is really rare... but it isn't rare enough.

If you bet $10 on the Pass Line your Expected Value (EV) = 10*(-0.0141) = -$0.141
If you bet $10 on the Don't Pass your Expected Value (EV) = 10*(-0.0136) = -$0.136

Now, if you bet BOTH, what is your EV? Well, you CAN'T WIN either initial bet since one will win and the other will lose, so they're a wash. The only thing that can happen to your initial bets is you can get hit with a come out 12... which happens 1/36 rolls. Thus, your EV = -10*(1/36) = -10*(-0.0278) = -$0.278

So you see, betting both will actually lose you TWICE the amount you're expected to lose on just betting either one individually. The flaw here is people don't understand that even though it's 1/36... that 1/36 = 2.8%, where as the House Edge (HE) on the Pass is 1.41% and the Don't Pass is 1.36%... much lower.

A good thing to learn really quick, Ballfour, is that you can't do yourself any good by combining bets that have a house edge, and both of these bets are up against that. It seems brilliant at first blush that one hedges against another, but the EV of each bet is undefeatable ...... plus stop and think, now you are betting twice as much. That you can also do the odds? That is granted to you already.

I say learn this quick because there are a lot of guys who'll try to convince you to combine various bets - it just means putting more into action against that house edge.

Plus, as Ahiromu points out, some pit bosses don't like it [tho they should!].... so you risk playing for no comps.

Quote: odiousgambit

Plus, as Ahiromu points out, some pit bosses don't like it [tho they should!].... so you risk playing for no comps.

If you are going to do this, and I'm not recommending it, get a friend to play the other side and use separate cards.

If you're just starting out and also don't have a huge bankroll, the book called No Nonsense Craps would be good to check out. It's an easy read, and one chapter outlines a pretty conservative betting strategy (seems like you're looking for that) involving the best bets (pass, come, odds (in some cases), and placing 6/8) that can usually at least extend your time at the table quite a bit even during losing sessions. I still play this way most of the time.

Odds only increase variance, and they don’t improve your chances of winning.

No matter what odds multiple you use, you are always expected to lose the same amount.

WinCraps simulation for a $10 Pass Line bet on the come out. Results after same 10,000 dice rolls and 4,987 wagers:


Zero Odds

Total $ Wagered = $29,130
HE = 1.414 %
Expected Loss = (-.01414 x $29,130) = - $411.89


2X odds

Total $ Wagered = $72,930
HE = .5648 %
Expected Loss = -$411.90


10X odds

Total $ Wagered = $227,510
HE = .1811%
Expected Loss = -$412.02

It is very rare that hedging bets is a good idea. Your best bet is to choose between Pass and Don't Pass (mathematically Don't is better, but in essence it's a wash) and just make fewer bets at $10 than you would at a $5 table.

You have to accept that your money will last half the time betting $10 than $5+$5 odds (or $10+$10 / $5+$15). If you want to increase your variable then by all means make the odds bets, but on a good day you'll make more money and on a bad day you'll lose more.

Question 1: Rather than hunt the strip for $5 tables


Go downtown, plenty of $5 options