Is this Lay strategy allowed?

I have been wondering about whether pit bosses would allow this strategy but since I am at least six months from my next trip to Vegas I thought I would ask the experts on this forum.

The concept is: Do absolutely nothing on comeout roll until point is established. Therefore you would place no bets but just observe. If point is anything but 4 or 10 also do nothing. If point is 4 or 10 place Dont Pass Line bet with maximum odds plus lay with maximum odds the other number. So if point is 4 lay the 10 and viceversa.

I am not stating that this is a "system" but only an enquiry as to whether the casino would allow it.

I know that many casinos dont like observers with only sporadic bets, so in that case would it then be allowed to place a Pass and Dont Pass Line bet at the same time?

Thank you in advance for your replies.

Please let us all know if you find a place where they let you place a dont pass after the point is established.

With this betting pattern even if a dont pass is allowed after the point, the dice goddess will smile upon you and the shooter will throw your non-point 4/10 then make the point.

Quote: Crapsphanatic

... If point is 4 or 10 place Dont Pass Line bet with maximum odds plus lay with maximum odds the other number.

Once the point is established, you are not allowed to bet the Don't Pass. You are allowed to lay either number and pay a commission on that wager. Given that there is a commission, the casino has an advantage over you, but that is an expected part of the game.

It is not meaningful to refer to "maximum odds" on a lay bet; it is just a lay bet. Odds bets are for Pass, Don't Pass, Come, or Don't Come wagers and may be added after the number for that base wager is established.

On related matters, you are allowed to add a Pass wager after the point is established, because that is to the house's benefit -- you have missed out on your advantage on the come out roll and are at a disadvantage from then on. You are also allowed to take down a Don't Pass wager or a Don't Come wager after the number is established, since that is to the house's advantage also. In summary, they allow you to change Pass/Come/Don't wagers (after the point is established) only in cases where it would be stupid for you to do so.

I know a casino
Where the dice are ice cold
All the dealers are angry
And the servers are old

Yea, I know a casino
Where the players all lose
They hang out there all day
Just to get some free booze

Try playing the Pass
Then switch to the Don't
You can lay all you want
But they still say you won't

As mentioned, your "dont pass line bet" after an established point would need to be a lay bet. So lay both the point and the other 3/36 number when one of them is the point. Casino shouldn't get on you for sitting around, but I wouldn't be surprised if the supervisor gives you a rating of $0.

Lots of people sit around and only bet/shoot for themselves, I don't see how this is any different. Of course, all it takes is one supervisor having a bad day...

Thanks to all for the replies. I can certainly understand the "problems" with this approach and I may have misspoken when dealing with Lay odds. So let's look at it this way:

1) Place a Pass and Don't Pass Bet each time on the come-out roll. This will avoid the questioning of whether you can place the Don't Pass after point is established. Yes, I know that they will cancel each other out but that's the whole idea. Yes, I also know, good luck getting the pit boss to let you get away with that for too long but you might be able to make a good argument... before they throw you out.
2) Go Lay the 4 and 10 when one of them is the point.
3) Then go to maximum odds on the Don't Pass. Understandably it's 1:2 but if I am not mistaken Main Street Station goes to 20x Odds and Casino Royale and Eastside Cannery go to 100x Free Odds, so if you load up it "might" work (if Lady Luck is smiling...)

Thoughts?

Quote: Crapsphanatic

1) Place a Pass and Don't Pass Bet each time on the come-out roll. This will avoid the questioning of whether you can place the Don't Pass after point is established. Yes, I know that they will cancel each other out but that's the whole idea. Yes, I also know, good luck getting the pit boss to let you get away with that for too long but you might be able to make a good argument... before they throw you out.

To figure the house advantage on doey-don't, multiply 1.41 X 2.

The Wizard has it all laid out in the defnitive detail at:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/#toc-DefiningtheHouseEdge
Look at the section on Multi-Roll Bets

I'm all for money management strategies, but when you start exposing yourself to more HE because of it, it becomes a problem. Doey-don't is a problem. Just play the don't and only add odds if 4/10. This also allays any fear of being kicked out for not having enough action on the table... if you're happy to go max odds then I have to imagine flat betting $5-10 won't change your outcome by much. Otherwise...

Other than some weird looks, I would be surprised if anyone gave you trouble. Casinos really don't make it a habit to stop allowing people to put money on the table. Just steer clear from being that a-hole that cheers loudly during a seven out.

Quote: Crapsphanatic

1) Place a Pass and Don't Pass Bet each time on the come-out roll
2) Go Lay the 4 and 10 when one of them is the point.

1) I don't know that any casino will not allow you to bet on both Pass and Don't Pass. The house still has an advantage because you lose when a 12 is rolled.

2) Why not Lay 4 & 10 every time?

Quote: Crapsphanatic

Thoughts?

Take this to the bank: something on the order of billions of players since Bank Craps was introduced have studied every angle, pondered every nook and cranny, poured over every fact and fallacy, just absolutely bled all over the table in gargantuan efforts to beat the house. So when you come up with the bright idea of hedging the main bets, you can be sure, absolutely sure, that millions of guys have thought of that before and yet they go home just as broke as everybody else.

That's why coming to this site is an opportunity to get educated. You will have to be able to be selective; when it comes to Craps, there are members here who will post wildly incorrect stuff. But you will also hear it said that no combination of bets that have a house edge can result in a bet that favors the player. Each bet has an undefeatable Expected Value, and if you combine these bets, you add the EVs into a sum that is the total EV.

Pass and Don't Pass each have a house edge. If you make both bets, you are betting twice as much with not much chance at variance either - the house loves it. Each bet - each - has an undefeatable negative expectation. That you only play the odds on one side [I hope so!] does not make this smarter, instead you are paying more to play.

Quote: SanchoPanza

To figure the house advantage on doey-don't, multiply 1.41 X 2.

The house edge for pass / don't pass bettor (assuming equal bet amounts) cannot be 1.41 x 2 -- that makes no sense.

A quick approximation is 1 bet out of 72 bets since you lose 1 bet, on average, in 36 rolls but since you are making 2 opposing bets at the same time, the edge is 1 in 72 bets as a guesstimate.

35 times (or 70 bets) that are non-box cars are a wash or net to zero. One bet wins, the other bet loses. It's the box car where one bet loses and one bet pushes, thus losing one bet in 72 bets.

I had a guy at my table doing this the other night. He was laying the 4 and 10 for $100+ each he did have a min bet on the don't pass with 0 odds. He went up over 1k at first when the table was point 7 out a multiple times in a row. Then proceeded to get crushed to $0 after a nice lady went for a nice long roll and a few points.

Just lay the 4 OR the 10.

Laying both - you have the same chance of a 4 or a 10 hitting as you do a 7.

Chance of a 4 hitting = 3/36.
Chance of a 10 hitting = 3/36

Chance of either of them hitting = 6/36.

Chance of a 7 rolling = 6/36

Chance of a 7 rolling before a 4 OR a 10 is twice as great.

I worked on a strategy that I ended up not liking -

But basically, you lay 4 and 10, then one hits, you triple the bet (you have to triple in order to cover the loss since it pays only 50%), but you split the increase between the 4 and 10.

Example, $100 on each 4 and 10 lay. a 4 rolls. You triple it it to $300, but since $100 is still on the 10, total is $400 - you split that and so now you have $200 on 4/10 lay. Then another 4 rolls, you triple it ($600), but spread out the total between the two so now you have $400 each. You have now lost $300. If a seven hits, you will win $400. It's kind of a fun martingale variant that spreads the increase and lessons the impact of an exponential increase with each doubling - but maintains the value of martingale system because assuming you still have head room (table limits) and bankroll, you always stay ahead.

Assuming the Lay limit is $5000, you would need to roll six 4/10's before a 7 rolls before running out of room. I guess that is a 2% chance of happening (on the next series) and 99% chance after 1000 rolls.

Quote: VideoBJ

The house edge for pass / don't pass bettor (assuming equal bet amounts) cannot be 1.41 x 2 -- that makes no sense.

not only does it make sense, but it is more or less correct...1.41 x 2 = 2.82 but the correct calculation is actually 1.41 + 1.36 since the HE for the dp is 1.36 or 2.78 (with rounding), iow the poster you were responding to had it pretty much correct as both results are of minuscule practical difference...

Quote: VideoBJ

A quick approximation is 1 bet out of 72 bets since you lose 1 bet, on average, in 36 rolls but since you are making 2 opposing bets at the same time, the edge is 1 in 72 bets as a guesstimate.

35 times (or 70 bets) that are non-box cars are a wash or net to zero. One bet wins, the other bet loses. It's the box car where one bet loses and one bet pushes, thus losing one bet in 72 bets.

but 12 loses on average 1/36 not 1/72 ...1/36 = ta dah! 2.78 (percent)

as others have also pointed out, the doey-don't is two bets, not one thus increasing the overall EV.

tom p