Crapsphanatic
Joined: Mar 26, 2017
• Posts: 2
March 26th, 2017 at 6:47:31 AM permalink
I have been wondering about whether pit bosses would allow this strategy but since I am at least six months from my next trip to Vegas I thought I would ask the experts on this forum.

The concept is: Do absolutely nothing on comeout roll until point is established. Therefore you would place no bets but just observe. If point is anything but 4 or 10 also do nothing. If point is 4 or 10 place Dont Pass Line bet with maximum odds plus lay with maximum odds the other number. So if point is 4 lay the 10 and viceversa.

I am not stating that this is a "system" but only an enquiry as to whether the casino would allow it.

I know that many casinos dont like observers with only sporadic bets, so in that case would it then be allowed to place a Pass and Dont Pass Line bet at the same time?

Konbu
Joined: Apr 20, 2012
• Posts: 299
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March 26th, 2017 at 7:36:29 AM permalink
Please let us all know if you find a place where they let you place a dont pass after the point is established.

With this betting pattern even if a dont pass is allowed after the point, the dice goddess will smile upon you and the shooter will throw your non-point 4/10 then make the point.
I CD-ROM.
Doc
Joined: Feb 27, 2010
• Posts: 6958
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March 26th, 2017 at 7:41:52 AM permalink
Quote: Crapsphanatic

... If point is 4 or 10 place Dont Pass Line bet with maximum odds plus lay with maximum odds the other number.

Once the point is established, you are not allowed to bet the Don't Pass. You are allowed to lay either number and pay a commission on that wager. Given that there is a commission, the casino has an advantage over you, but that is an expected part of the game.

It is not meaningful to refer to "maximum odds" on a lay bet; it is just a lay bet. Odds bets are for Pass, Don't Pass, Come, or Don't Come wagers and may be added after the number for that base wager is established.

On related matters, you are allowed to add a Pass wager after the point is established, because that is to the house's benefit -- you have missed out on your advantage on the come out roll and are at a disadvantage from then on. You are also allowed to take down a Don't Pass wager or a Don't Come wager after the number is established, since that is to the house's advantage also. In summary, they allow you to change Pass/Come/Don't wagers (after the point is established) only in cases where it would be stupid for you to do so.
WatchMeWin
Joined: May 20, 2011
• Posts: 1533
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March 26th, 2017 at 8:30:45 AM permalink
I know a casino
Where the dice are ice cold
All the dealers are angry
And the servers are old

Yea, I know a casino
Where the players all lose
They hang out there all day
Just to get some free booze

Try playing the Pass
Then switch to the Don't
You can lay all you want
But they still say you won't
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
ahiromu
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
• Posts: 2101
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March 26th, 2017 at 9:36:01 AM permalink
As mentioned, your "dont pass line bet" after an established point would need to be a lay bet. So lay both the point and the other 3/36 number when one of them is the point. Casino shouldn't get on you for sitting around, but I wouldn't be surprised if the supervisor gives you a rating of \$0.

Lots of people sit around and only bet/shoot for themselves, I don't see how this is any different. Of course, all it takes is one supervisor having a bad day...
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
Crapsphanatic
Joined: Mar 26, 2017
• Posts: 2
March 26th, 2017 at 7:45:51 PM permalink
Thanks to all for the replies. I can certainly understand the "problems" with this approach and I may have misspoken when dealing with Lay odds. So let's look at it this way:

1) Place a Pass and Don't Pass Bet each time on the come-out roll. This will avoid the questioning of whether you can place the Don't Pass after point is established. Yes, I know that they will cancel each other out but that's the whole idea. Yes, I also know, good luck getting the pit boss to let you get away with that for too long but you might be able to make a good argument... before they throw you out.
2) Go Lay the 4 and 10 when one of them is the point.
3) Then go to maximum odds on the Don't Pass. Understandably it's 1:2 but if I am not mistaken Main Street Station goes to 20x Odds and Casino Royale and Eastside Cannery go to 100x Free Odds, so if you load up it "might" work (if Lady Luck is smiling...)

Thoughts?
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
• Posts: 3416
March 26th, 2017 at 8:20:17 PM permalink
Quote: Crapsphanatic

1) Place a Pass and Don't Pass Bet each time on the come-out roll. This will avoid the questioning of whether you can place the Don't Pass after point is established. Yes, I know that they will cancel each other out but that's the whole idea. Yes, I also know, good luck getting the pit boss to let you get away with that for too long but you might be able to make a good argument... before they throw you out.

To figure the house advantage on doey-don't, multiply 1.41 X 2.

The Wizard has it all laid out in the defnitive detail at:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/#toc-DefiningtheHouseEdge
Look at the section on Multi-Roll Bets
Last edited by: SanchoPanza on Mar 26, 2017
ahiromu
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
• Posts: 2101
March 26th, 2017 at 10:39:01 PM permalink
I'm all for money management strategies, but when you start exposing yourself to more HE because of it, it becomes a problem. Doey-don't is a problem. Just play the don't and only add odds if 4/10. This also allays any fear of being kicked out for not having enough action on the table... if you're happy to go max odds then I have to imagine flat betting \$5-10 won't change your outcome by much. Otherwise...

Other than some weird looks, I would be surprised if anyone gave you trouble. Casinos really don't make it a habit to stop allowing people to put money on the table. Just steer clear from being that a-hole that cheers loudly during a seven out.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
BlueEagle
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
• Posts: 249
March 26th, 2017 at 11:40:02 PM permalink
Quote: Crapsphanatic

1) Place a Pass and Don't Pass Bet each time on the come-out roll
2) Go Lay the 4 and 10 when one of them is the point.

1) I don't know that any casino will not allow you to bet on both Pass and Don't Pass. The house still has an advantage because you lose when a 12 is rolled.

2) Why not Lay 4 & 10 every time?
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 8220
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March 27th, 2017 at 4:16:42 AM permalink
Quote: Crapsphanatic

Thoughts?

Take this to the bank: something on the order of billions of players since Bank Craps was introduced have studied every angle, pondered every nook and cranny, poured over every fact and fallacy, just absolutely bled all over the table in gargantuan efforts to beat the house. So when you come up with the bright idea of hedging the main bets, you can be sure, absolutely sure, that millions of guys have thought of that before and yet they go home just as broke as everybody else.

That's why coming to this site is an opportunity to get educated. You will have to be able to be selective; when it comes to Craps, there are members here who will post wildly incorrect stuff. But you will also hear it said that no combination of bets that have a house edge can result in a bet that favors the player. Each bet has an undefeatable Expected Value, and if you combine these bets, you add the EVs into a sum that is the total EV.

Pass and Don't Pass each have a house edge. If you make both bets, you are betting twice as much with not much chance at variance either - the house loves it. Each bet - each - has an undefeatable negative expectation. That you only play the odds on one side [I hope so!] does not make this smarter, instead you are paying more to play.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder