Wynn did it again part 2..
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Quote: mds
WYNN has done it again.
Zowie! I hope the table is being set up for some kind of old-time cowboy movie, or some-such.
Does NV have things called "rules" about how table games are structured and played? This news article from today seems to suggest the state does provide oversight:
Vetting Nevada’s casino games
But, with all the "piling on" about paid parking, I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't collusion amongst Vegas casinos about how to stick it to the gaming public more and more. Oxford dictionary declared the "Word of the Year" for 2016 is "post-truth," meaning something like, "not true, but we want it to be taken as true." As to the "post" part, that's just another word for "shaft," and I know who's gonna get the shaft -- you and me!
And, I would think, against the rules. On the other hand, Crapless Craps doesn't have a Don't bet either.
I have found tables in and around Tahoe and Reno that do not have Don't Come bets on their layouts. So far, I haven't found that in Clark County.Quote: DJTeddyBearIncredible. And, I would think, against the rules. On the other hand, Crapless Craps doesn't have a Don't bet either.
Alas, its probably being set up as a way to speed things up and provide fewer opportunities for dealer error. Seldom used bets are seldom scanned by neophyted dealers; surveillance can get confused by the dealer 'proving' his chip payout for the camera when a player on the don't side speaks up about an overlooked don't bet. And if its really really simple you don't need to retain dice crews or try to keep them happy.Quote: LuckyPhowZowie! I hope the table is being set up for some kind of old-time cowboy movie, or some-such.
You don't need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind blows; you just need an MBA.
He did not like being yelled at for missing the box on his eye scan and it was used so seldom that he just solved his problem the easy way. I think some MBA may have been watching and copied it.
In street craps much of the action was booked between players. In Bank Craps the house takes ALL bets both Do and Don't, but since most bets are always Right Way bets, it makes sense to an MBA to change the layout and dealer training to simplify, simplify, simplify and speed up the shearing process.
Not the way NJ does. The NJ rules are codified by law; the NV rules are either regulations or looser. Also the NGCB tech lab only deals with EGMs; table games aren't "gaming devices" under NV law. A table game with multiple bets may be approved but that does not mean those bets must always be spread. Historically in craps, there were a series of bets called "don't place" bets. But you never see those -- they're approved but not offered. The passline is an approved wager, so there's nothing preventing a casino from setting up a dice table with just a pass/come area and literally no other wagers, as long as the actual rules for pass and come were the same. That'd be allowed in NV without further approval (if I'm interpreting the process correctly), but in NJ it would need government action. According to the NGCB agent who used to be in charge of table game approvals, the switch to 6:5 naturals on blackjack should have been formally approved (it wasn't) because it's a real rule change. But simply erasing don't pass or the entire prop box isn't a rule change, it's just the casino choosing not to spread those bets.Quote: LuckyPhowZowie! I hope the table is being set up for some kind of old-time cowboy movie, or some-such.
Does NV have things called "rules" about how table games are structured and played? This news article from today seems to suggest the state does provide oversight:
Technically, I guess that means a Nevada casino could also carve off the "13" spot on the roulette table for a high roller with triskaidekaphobia...
Quote: SanchoPanzaI have found tables in and around Tahoe and Reno that do not have Don't Come bets on their layouts. So far, I haven't found that in Clark County.
Their layouts make a lot more sense because the DP/DC is the same area. No more tossing cheques across to the DC and all don't bets travel.
What's funny is there is still a place on the layout for the traveled DC bets (box behind the numbers).
That could also be for lay bets, but I agree with you that it's weird.Quote: RSWhat's funny is there is still a place on the layout for the traveled DC bets (box behind the numbers).
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Stephen Alan Wynn - Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
And, for example, last June we held 32% on a couple hundred million dollars. This year, our casino is behaving normally at over $21 million, but we made $60 odd million last year. We have these – we get the benefit of these tremendous big players. But when you have one of these giant months where you win all the money, the next year it always looks a little funny. In the end it all evens out, but we see these volatility fluctuations. But, our base business tends to be pretty steady. And Shaun, I guess that's the best way to explain it. We had more Chinese play last year than we did this year, and I mean a place like our own, we can make $60 million in a month in this hotel or $70 million. We can also make $25 million, and as I say, it evens out at the end. But when you look at it, short term, as we do every six or eight hours a day, I do at least, I'm in the casino every day and on the phone with my people. We've readjusted our floor on the Fourth of July and interestingly enough, many of the games in Las Vegas have become marginally profitable. Years ago down at Binion's, they started at the crap table of giving ten times odds. If you bet $100 on the line, you could bet $1,000 on the free odds behind the line if you bet the pass line. I'm getting a little technical. But in the old days in dice, whatever you bet on the line you could bet the same amount behind the line, and that was a hold percentage of a little under 1%.
Then they started giving double odds compared to the amount of money you bet on the pass line, and that lowered the house percentage to 0.57%. Then there became a pattern on the strip of what's called the three, four, five. Depending on what numbers you were betting on the crap table to come up before number seven came up, you could get three times odds, four times odds, or five times odds. There are pairs of numbers on a dice table. Four and ten have two to one odds, five and nine have a different set of odds, and six to eight or six to five.
Well, depending on what number you were trying to get, you could get three, four, or five times odds. That became a house advantage of 0.37%. With three dealers and a box man and a half of a floor man for every table, craps is not a really profitable game at that level.
So I changed the casino. In effect, I raised the price, and I went to double odds only except for extremely high play with $1,000 minimum bet. I also rearranged the floor in the casino to put our specialty games that are very popular with the public that have a higher margin and I put them in the 100% location and I moved my games with less of a margin to secondary locations. Those changes have worked out favorably to us in the past three weeks, and that kind of re-examination – our slot floor has been redone. We win more money with less games now. These are some of the reasons why we make more money than anybody else in Las Vegas.
Now some of the operators will copy us. We're not allowed to talk to one another because of obvious legal implications of price-fixing, but we don't really care what the other guys do. We run our own business the way we see we should, and we're not in business to offer games that don't make money, and I don't mind saying that publicly. So, we've done quite a bit of work in tightening up the way the casino works, and I know our competitors are on the call and they probably – everybody knows that the minute you make a change like that in Las Vegas, it goes around town like a wildfire. But those are some of the things we're doing and it touches every aspect.
We're constantly re-examining everything we do here. We sit in my office and discuss the most fundamental aspects of this industry every single week, and we take nothing. We are not so much concerned of what has been or what is as we are concerned about what might be, and that's a principle truth of our company, whether it's in China or in Las Vegas or Boston or wherever. Next question?
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Quote: LuckyPhow
But, with all the "piling on" about paid parking, I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't collusion amongst Vegas casinos about how to stick it to the gaming public more and more. !
Maybe one problem with oligopolies is that you don't need to explicitly collude.
MGM charges for parking. CET follows. Now, it's pretty much done. Anybody who holds out will have their parking structures overflowing with people trying to save $10.
Has anywhere on the strip copied this move? Casino Royale went down to 3x4x5x but we know they didn't do that in response to Wynn.Quote: Ahighand I know our competitors are on the call and they probably – everybody knows that the minute you make a change like that in Las Vegas, it goes around town like a wildfire. But those are some of the things we're doing and it touches every aspect.
Quote: TheoHuxtableHas anywhere on the strip copied this move? Casino Royale went down to 3x4x5x but we know they didn't do that in response to Wynn.
Not yet. Probably because it was a marginal gain at the expense of patrons' happiness. Now slashing the "Small/Tall/All" that was over a double HA gain at likely a lower expense of patrons' happiness. All the other strip casinos converted in a couple of weeks over that one.
Quote: AhighFrom Wynn Resorts (WYNN) Stephen Alan Wynn on Q2 2015 Results - Earnings Call Transcript
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Stephen Alan Wynn - Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
And, for example, last June we held 32% on a couple hundred million dollars. This year, our casino is behaving normally at over $21 million, but we made $60 odd million last year. We have these – we get the benefit of these tremendous big players. But when you have one of these giant months where you win all the money, the next year it always looks a little funny. In the end it all evens out, but we see these volatility fluctuations. But, our base business tends to be pretty steady. And Shaun, I guess that's the best way to explain it. We had more Chinese play last year than we did this year, and I mean a place like our own, we can make $60 million in a month in this hotel or $70 million. We can also make $25 million, and as I say, it evens out at the end. But when you look at it, short term, as we do every six or eight hours a day, I do at least, I'm in the casino every day and on the phone with my people. We've readjusted our floor on the Fourth of July and interestingly enough, many of the games in Las Vegas have become marginally profitable. Years ago down at Binion's, they started at the crap table of giving ten times odds. If you bet $100 on the line, you could bet $1,000 on the free odds behind the line if you bet the pass line. I'm getting a little technical. But in the old days in dice, whatever you bet on the line you could bet the same amount behind the line, and that was a hold percentage of a little under 1%.
Then they started giving double odds compared to the amount of money you bet on the pass line, and that lowered the house percentage to 0.57%. Then there became a pattern on the strip of what's called the three, four, five. Depending on what numbers you were betting on the crap table to come up before number seven came up, you could get three times odds, four times odds, or five times odds. There are pairs of numbers on a dice table. Four and ten have two to one odds, five and nine have a different set of odds, and six to eight or six to five.
Well, depending on what number you were trying to get, you could get three, four, or five times odds. That became a house advantage of 0.37%. With three dealers and a box man and a half of a floor man for every table, craps is not a really profitable game at that level.
So I changed the casino. In effect, I raised the price, and I went to double odds only except for extremely high play with $1,000 minimum bet. I also rearranged the floor in the casino to put our specialty games that are very popular with the public that have a higher margin and I put them in the 100% location and I moved my games with less of a margin to secondary locations. Those changes have worked out favorably to us in the past three weeks, and that kind of re-examination – our slot floor has been redone. We win more money with less games now. These are some of the reasons why we make more money than anybody else in Las Vegas.
Now some of the operators will copy us. We're not allowed to talk to one another because of obvious legal implications of price-fixing, but we don't really care what the other guys do. We run our own business the way we see we should, and we're not in business to offer games that don't make money, and I don't mind saying that publicly. So, we've done quite a bit of work in tightening up the way the casino works, and I know our competitors are on the call and they probably – everybody knows that the minute you make a change like that in Las Vegas, it goes around town like a wildfire. But those are some of the things we're doing and it touches every aspect.
We're constantly re-examining everything we do here. We sit in my office and discuss the most fundamental aspects of this industry every single week, and we take nothing. We are not so much concerned of what has been or what is as we are concerned about what might be, and that's a principle truth of our company, whether it's in China or in Las Vegas or Boston or wherever. Next question?
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This is utter nonsense. It is exceedingly rare for a craps player to either 1) increase their line bet or 2) change their length of play due to the table having lower odds. So, even though the combined edge (of the line & odds bet) is higher, the expected loss won't change, Also, in my experience, less than 1% of craps players play optimally (P/C/DP/DC with max odds).
Basically, I'm extremely skeptical that changing the craps odds from 345x to double odds could materially impact the casino's bottom line and consume that amount of air time on a quarterly earnings call. I don't doubt that he really believes he "changed the casino".
Quote: MBThis is utter nonsense. It is exceedingly rare for a craps player to either 1) increase their line bet or 2) change their length of play due to the table having lower odds. So, even though the combined edge (of the line & odds bet) is higher, the expected loss won't change, Also, in my experience, less than 1% of craps players play optimally (P/C/DP/DC with max odds).
Basically, I'm extremely skeptical that changing the craps odds from 345x to double odds could materially impact the casino's bottom line and consume that amount of air time on a quarterly earnings call. I don't doubt that he really believes he "changed the casino"
Indeed. A bulk of the income on a craps table does not come from PL/DP/come/DC bets. Sure, some will increase their flat bets.
Let's assume 100 rolls per hour, to make the math easy. If someone is doing $100 continuous come & pass line bets, he's giving up 100 * $100 * 0.0141 = $141/hour.
With a 10.1% HE on hardways (average I reckon), to lose that same amount per hour, he'd have to put up $1,396 in action (let's call it $1400). With 100 rolls per hour, that averages $14 per roll in required action. With 4 different hardways, that's $3.5 per hardway.
Of course, he isn't betting that low on the hardways. He's probably got at least $25 on each all day. That's $100 in action, or a $10.10 in EV for the house, per roll! That's $1,010 in EV per hour.
Wait, but there are also place bets! And one-roll hop bets. And the ATS bets. (Chances are he won't have come bets + place bets all the time though, typically one or the other). Even ignoring these other super-bad bets, he's giving up $141 + $1,010 or $1,151 in EV per hour to the house. If he doubles his pass & come wagers, that'll increase the EV/hour from $1151 to $1292, for a 12.25% increase in revenue. Which is pretty good, admittedly.
But chances are, the typical player isn't making continuous come wagers, but a pass line wager, with the $25 on each hardway with $400 average action on the place bets. So instead of $141 + $1010 in EV (first player), it's more like $40 + $1400 in EV for a more typical player ($40 being the hourly EV he gives up on pass only and $1400 for hardways plus place bets). By doubling his pass line bet, his hourly EV goes from $1440 to $1480 for a 3% increase in revenue for the table.
I don't know how frequently a PL bet is resolved, so the $40 in more of a guess, as well as the $1400. But it's likely more than $1400 and less than $40, which would further decrease the revenue for the casino.
It was said in the article or whatever it is above -- casino will make quite a bit one month and not so much the following. I'm thinking the casino just "ran good" after making the switch and they may have been "running bad" prior to the switch.
Quote: RSI don't know how frequently a PL bet is resolved.
3.38 rolls if made during the comeout.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/2
