Field Bet Only
Situation: they aren't going to allow me to walk up to the table and simply place a field bet. I must also bet a pass or don't pass wager.
My question: Why? Considering that they have a greater edge over me (especially if it's a rare table where the 12 only pays double on the field) on the FB than the P/DP it seems that they would actually encourage me to place the FB.
Again, I'm not talking about other players being at the table where it's necessary to establish a point; it's just me.
There must be some logic behind this that I'm missing.
Thanks for your theories/explanations.
You must have line to shoot. What if you are throwing and others walk to the table. Are they supposed to take the dice off of you?
Not sure if it is in the official rules with Nevada but if the games rules say you must have line to shoot then they are breaking the rules and could be fined.
Quote: GWAE
What if you are throwing and others walk to the table. Are they supposed to take the dice off of you?
Sure, I'd have no gripe with that.
Quote: GWAE
Not sure if it is in the official rules with Nevada but if the games rules say you must have line to shoot then they are breaking the rules and could be fined.
It's the official rule on every crap table, shooter must have a line bet (pass or don't pass), then may add prop/place/field bets.
The shooter is going FOR for AGAINST the pass/don't pass line result as the basis for the game.
It's similar to a blackjack game: you have to have a main bet to play the 21+3/Lucky Lucky/Bust It side bet.
Quote: PaigowdanIt's the official rule on every crap table, shooter must have a line bet (pass or don't pass), then may add prop/place/field bets.
The shooter is going FOR for AGAINST the pass/don't pass line result as the basis for the game.
It's similar to a blackjack game: you have to have a main bet to play the 21+3/Lucky Lucky/Bust It side bet.
Is that the actual rule for the game (craps), or is it a casino rule? Some casinos allow you to play pairs plus on TCP without an ante, while others require an ante if you want to play PP side bet.
I'm not sure which it is, but, I have seen casinos allow a player to shoot the dice without a line bet at all (ie: not even husband/wife/friend with a line bet). It would typically be because the player is about tapped out (and a big player), so he wants to give it one last hoorah and throw a few hundred on the 12 or something.
Quote: ChesterDogHere is a pdf of New Jersey's rules for craps. It says, "13:69F-1.8 Throw of the dice
Upon selection of the dice, the shooter shall make a Pass or Don't Pass Bet..."
Indeed it does. However, there's an interesting caveat (sort of), which reads:
Quote: 13:69F-1.11 b)If a shooter, after making the Come Out Point elects not to place a Pass
or Don't Pass Bet, and other wagers remain on the table with respect to Come and/or
Don't Come numbers, the craps stickperson or the mini-craps dealer or stickperson shall
offer the dice to the player immediately to the left of the previous shooter, as provided
for in (c) below. If there are no other players at the table, or if no other players at the
table elect to make a Pass or Don't Pass Bet in order to shoot the dice and continue the
game, the previous shooter shall be allowed to shoot the dice without a Pass or Don't
Pass Bet only for the purpose of effecting a decision on the remaining Come and/or
Don't Come Wagers. The On/Off marker shall be placed on the Don't Pass Line in the Off
position in front of the shooter in order to indicate that the shooter is rolling the dice
only to effectuate a decision for those wagers remaining on the layout. Once the
remaining Come and/or Don't Come Wagers have been decided or a player wishes to
place a Pass or Don't Pass Bet, the game shall proceed in accordance with N.J.A.C.
IE: If you're shooting, make the point, and decide not to make another line bet, the dice get passed to the next player who makes a line bet. If no one wants to make a line bet (or no one else at the table), then the original shooter can continue shooting if there are active come/don't-come wagers, but a point will not be marked, instead, the puck should be placed on the don't-pass line in front of the shooter.
So this begs the question -- do those bets' odds (comes/DCs) have action on the first roll? o_O
Are the regs posted for craps in Nevada? A quick google search shows a post here at WOV from AlanMendelson saying they don't exist and also a link to his site (alan best buys) talking about it. But that was also 5 years ago.
It is a rule of the game. The dealers will explain this to help it be understood.
The Come bets/DC bets operate the same way: they have action on the "come-out roll," which may appear to be mid-game for the pass line bets, so:
On a new come bet, it will lose on a 2, 3, or 12, and win on an 11 or a 7-out, which is called a "Last Come bet," and is paid right in the Come box.
On a new DC bet, it'll win on a 2 or 3, push on a 12, and lose on an 11 or a 7-out.
The odds on the existing come bets (that have moved up to their numbers) do not have action on the come-out (called "Save the Odds" if a come-out 7 is rolled, and only pay on the flat bet part if a come-out number hits the bet), and are returned on a come-out winner-7, unless you declared them "working on the come-out."
DC bets and their odds are always working.
Quote: MidwestAPI understand it the rule of the game, but my question is why is it a rule? Especially in the scenario the OP describes. If the table is empty, and someone would want to bet the field or some one roll prop bet, why would the casino be against it letting them try to hit it? If a pass/don't pass shooter walked up, the next roll would be on them.
It is because the shooter is shooting FOR or AGAINST the point number that is established, and this game rule is enforced in play, just like requiring a main blackjack bet in order to play the side bet.
It doesn't have to make sense to the player. It doesn't even have to make sense to the casino dealers. It's like the requirement that ten men must form a minyan for the temple to have a praying congregation, as nine won't do. God said so, and here the casino says so, and there you go. Also similar to when a priest says "it's one of the mysteries of the church....make Nine First Fridays so that you can go to heaven...." You can ask, "But WHY, oh why..."
Quote: PaigowdanIt is because the shooter is shooting FOR or AGAINST the point number that is established, and this game rule is enforced in play, just like requiring a main blackjack bet in order to play the side bet.
It doesn't have to make sense to the player. It doesn't even have to make sense to the casino dealers. It's like the requirement that ten men must form a minyan for the temple to have a praying congregation, as nine won't do. God said so, and here the casino says so, and there you go. Also similar to when a priest says "it's one of the mysteries of the church....make Nine First Fridays so that you can go to heaven...." You can ask, "But WHY, oh why..."
You're right, I can ask 'why'. In an empty table, there is no one FOR or AGAINST a point number, so I ask why is there a need to force a line bet? Why would the casino be against letting someone make throws on one roll resolved bets until a pass/don't pass shooter wishes to play? The casino would be playing at a big advantage without disrupting the game whatsoever. Your response of 'that's them there rules' doesn't address why the rules are there. Imagine the potential profit and advantage the casino would have on someone shooting and only betting field, hop, and horn bets.
Quote: MidwestAPYou're right, I can ask 'why'. In an empty table, there is no one FOR or AGAINST a point number, so I ask why is there a need to force a line bet?
If you are shooting the dice, then it is not an empty table, and where you are shooting for or against the point. You have to make a bet that makes a choice on this in order to proceed. The shooter is not allowed to straddle the fence on this.
Quote: MidWestAPWhy would the casino be against letting someone make throws on one roll resolved bets until a pass/don't pass shooter wishes to play? The casino would be playing at a big advantage without disrupting the game whatsoever. Your response of 'that's them there rules' doesn't address why the rules are there. Imagine the potential profit and advantage the casino would have on someone shooting and only betting field, hop, and horn bets.
My (or the casino's) response might not adequately address the "Why" of this to your satisfaction, but it is expected and enforced that the shooter must pick a side in relation to the upcoming line result, in order to throw: Pass Line or Don't, Trump versus Hillary, Good versus Evil, heads or tails, what have you. You cannot say "I choose not to choose," as it would violate the Covenants of the Crap Table. Just pick one "Do or Don't" side and put a minimum bet on the line, and add yer field bet. This should not put you into an existential quandary.....
I was at the table with just one other player. The shooter established a point. I made 3 Don't Come bets.
The shooter made the point. He then made another Pass line bet and threw a #2. He made another Pass line bet and threw another #2. He then then decided to leave. That just left me with 3 Don't Come bets on the table.
The dealer asked if I wanted to shoot and when I said NO, he started to return my 3 Don't Come bets. I told him to leave my bets there. I would wait there until another shooter came to the table.
A few players approached the table but when they saw the DC bets on the table they left. After waiting a few more minutes, they finally gave me the dice to shoot without any line bet. The reason that they finally gave in and gave me the dice was because they wanted to close the table. This happened a long time ago. I think I made one of the DC points and then sevened out. They immediately closed the table.
Quote: FatGeezusI have thrown the dice without a line bet!
This may happen: break-in dealers, break-in floormen, etc. (Is the player shooting for or against the point?? - Don't know and don't care....looks okay to me...I think....oops.)
When we were on the game (at Fiesta), we even wouldn't send the dice out if there were no line bet: "Sir, pick a side, Do or Don't...." If someone picked up their line bet, dice would stay in the center and they'd get a reminder/warning.
We've seen all sorts of stuff at the casino.
Quote: HorseJeff
My question: Why? ... There must be some logic behind this that I'm missing.
An Internet search on "History of Craps" returned this:
The game of craps was invented by Sir William of Tyre in 1125 AD during the Crusades. Sir William and his troops came upon a castle which was named Asart or Hazarth, and the dice game was a pastime for them while laying siege to the castle.
I think the reason for the Pass/DP requirement is that when craps (Hazarth) was first played, the Pass bet was the only wager. Period. I don't thing the Crusaders had things like Field and Hop bets, don'cher know?
Modern craps was defined/codified by John H. Winn around 1910 (source: John Scarne).
I think the entire answer for the OP is, you have to make a bet because that is how the game was designed. Once the patent was created with the official rules then the casinos are forced to follow the rules or gaming can come down hard on them.
Sure the casino is better off allowing someone to make a 7% or whatever wager but rules are dem rules.
btw, ,what the hell is this thank you button that I am seeing.
eta: aww I cant thank myself
Following that line, the casino would have to allow solo bets on Big Red or Horn or World.Quote: MidwestAPYou're right, I can ask 'why'. In an empty table, there is no one FOR or AGAINST a point number, so I ask why is there a need to force a line bet? Why would the casino be against letting someone make throws on one roll resolved bets until a pass/don't pass shooter wishes to play? The casino would be playing at a big advantage without disrupting the game whatsoever. Your response of 'that's them there rules' doesn't address why the rules are there. Imagine the potential profit and advantage the casino would have on someone shooting and only betting field, hop, and horn bets.
Quote: SanchoPanzaFollowing that line, the casino would have to allow solo bets on Big Red or Horn or World.
Sure, those as well.
Other than the rules, which I understand don't permit it, hypothetically, why would a casino not allow a person to shoot one roll bets as long as there aren't any pass/don't pass players at the table? The outcome of one roll bets is independent of the outcome of the pass/don't pass, therefore, I don't know why the rule exists when the only bettor(s) at the table are not making pass/don't pass wagers.
I do understand why the rule exists when there are pass/don't pass bettors as they don't appreciate dice switching hands in the middle of a roll, even though each roll is independent of the previous. On top of that, many enjoy the group camaraderie as they cheer for the same numbers. So, in these situations, I can understand why you need a pass/don't pass to roll, but when there isn't anyone wanting to bet pass/don't pass, I don't understand why the rule exists. Not that I would do it, I haven't bet those wagers in a long long time, but it shouldn't stop others under the described circumstances.
Excuse the bold type, wasn't meant for you, but for others.
Quote: MidwestAPSure, those as well.
Other than the rules, which I understand don't permit it, hypothetically, why would a casino not allow a person to shoot one roll bets as long as there aren't any pass/don't pass players at the table? The outcome of one roll bets is independent of the outcome of the pass/don't pass, therefore, I don't know why the rule exists when the only bettor(s) at the table are not making pass/don't pass wagers.
I do understand why the rule exists when there are pass/don't pass bettors as they don't appreciate dice switching hands in the middle of a roll, even though each roll is independent of the previous. On top of that, many enjoy the group camaraderie as they cheer for the same numbers. So, in these situations, I can understand why you need a pass/don't pass to roll, but when there isn't anyone wanting to bet pass/don't pass, I don't understand why the rule exists. Not that I would do it, I haven't bet those wagers in a long long time, but it shouldn't stop others under the described circumstances.
Excuse the bold type, wasn't meant for you, but for others.
Because when the inventer made the game and the rules that is how it was.
When Hazard was introduced to North America via New Orleans about 1807 by a young local scion returned from London, his friends were baffled by its complexity so only the best Main number was retained as the sole Main number. The name Craps was appended to this simplified game shortly thereafter. The principal enthusiasts were local blacks, hence the sobriquet "African Dominoes."
For decades, the only available game in Craps was our familiar Pass. Other games, including Field in various incarnations, were introduced over time to relieve the boredom of awaiting the resolution of Pass. For over a century, Pass was referred to as the "Center Bet" and sundry layouts for banked games featured it literally in the center. There was no way for a shooter to bet "wrong."
Responding to gaffed dice, Mr. Winn of Philadelphia introduced the game of Don't Pass in 1910 via a new layout featuring that new bet.
Without a bet on either Pass or Don't Pass, there is no Craps. Imagine icing without the cake.
Quote: Paigowdan
This was a totally different game, Hazard.
Modern craps was defined/codified by John H. Winn around 1910 (source: John Scarne).
Dan,
No disrespect to you or John Scarne, but I don't think modern craps is a "totally different" game than Hazard, according to numerous sources I find readily available. Here's one summary of the progression:
In the 17th Century, Hazard (the game of craps) became a huge pastime in England and you would see it being played in every tavern in England.
The name Craps came from the Frenchmen who changed the name from Hazard to distinguish them from the Englishmen. Craps is a version of the word crabs which describes a losing roll of 2.
John H. Winn developed the game further in the 19th Century and is known as the father of the modern game of craps we play in casinos today.
But, back to the original post, I don't think Winn originated the Pass bet (although it seems he may have been first to add the Don't bets). The Pass bet was anchored in the game long before John Winn worked his magic. My 2 cents.
Quote: LuckyPhowDan,
No disrespect to you or John Scarne, but I don't think modern craps is a "totally different" game than Hazard, according to numerous sources I find readily available. Here's one summary of the progression:
In the 17th Century, Hazard (the game of craps) became a huge pastime in England and you would see it being played in every tavern in England.
The name Craps came from the Frenchmen who changed the name from Hazard to distinguish them from the Englishmen. Craps is a version of the word crabs which describes a losing roll of 2.
John H. Winn developed the game further in the 19th Century and is known as the father of the modern game of craps we play in casinos today.
But, back to the original post, I don't think Winn originated the Pass bet (although it seems he may have been first to add the Don't bets). The Pass bet was anchored in the game long before John Winn worked his magic. My 2 cents.
True, the pass line concept is the same. But Winn added/modified the Field bet, allowed the place bets, added the don't pass, adjusted the payouts, and completely reorganized the layout, and we've been playing his [significantly different] creation ever since.
Also according to the NJ special rules for this situation, the puck goes to the Off side and remains there.
But since that is normal for a come out roll, as well as DC odds remaining on regardless of the puck, they should still be on for DCs and the player should be allowed to ask to have the odds turned on for comes, via a small On lammer.
For what it's worth, I think the scenario is not unrealistic. A Don't player could be playing alone, and have several DP and DC bets, make his point, and be tapped out. Would the casino force him to take down some of his odds so that he can make a line bet? I think not.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Also according to the NJ special rules for this situation, the puck goes to the Off side and remains there.
DJ,
Having spent far more time reading NJ gaming rules than appropriate for any sane person, I certainly wouldn't want to suggest I have any insight as to what the NJ regulators think.
That notwithstanding, the irregular placement of the puck on the Don't in front of the (default) shooter is a "special" situation. Since there is no Pass/DP bet, this seems not to be a come-out roll. This special situation allows play to continue to resolve the outstanding Don't bets. Only that and nothing more.
But, I sure would like to know for sure. Both for what NJ games would do and for how this situation is handled in gaming regulations in other states. What a fascinating question.
The stick can order the dice passed and even if it goes all around the table, the casino does not want to both throw the dice and determine if its a valid roll. At an empty table the Box will beg passers by to roll but will not pick up the dice. Fundamental to all casino games is that the casino provides teh equipment and the personnel but its never going to be anything but chance determining the outcome of the bets. No collusion between house and players. Even teh table is empty, go grab a pretty girl to throw them but not the Box.
