Bonus Bets

A few months ago my local casino dropped hop bets on its six tables and replaced them with three bonus bets, the Fire, Sharpshooter, and All / Tall / Small.

So for all you designers and execs out there: what do these bets cost the casino? A flat fee, percentage, or some combination?

For those, a flat fee. Percentages are impossible to gauge at table games anyway. Those bets probably go for $100-$200/table/month. Maybe as high as $250 if there's a strong demand or big performance. But it's just a side bet, and those particular side bets don't get made very often. They can't -- they take too long to resolve.

Played on table with all small takk bet for the first time. In 3 hours there were only 4 times that one of the sides was 1 number away. Once there was 1 number on both small and tall. Of course they were 2 and 12.

Small/Tall/All or Bonus Craps by Galaxy is the best craps side bet on the market, IMHO, as it provides mid roll action for those playing the line. Once the point is established, the 2,3, 11 & 12 become non-events for most players unless they are betting the Horn, Midnight or some other center bet. But for Bonus Craps, these are big events as they are the hardest numbers to roll.

Galaxy charges more than the typical $100/month side bet pricing for Bonus Craps....it is a very successful side bet for them for good reason.

I believe the House Edge for Bonus Craps is somewhere less than 8%, still very steep, but where else can you get paid 34-1 & 174-1 on the Craps layout? Sharpshooter & Fire bets are very similar and take too long to build the suspense of almost hitting. Bonus Craps appears to be winning the battle in this niche.

Thanks for the responses.

The ATS gets plenty of action here, and it's always available among the open tables. It's fun as an occasional lark, and as Paradigm says seems to offer the best (or at least, the most popular) balance of entertainment and return.

I have no idea whether the house is covering its costs.

From my observances, Fire Bet is the most popular of the three. All / Tall / Small is the only craps side bet that I like to play. It is easier to roll the numbers at least once than to make multiple points, and to make the same point multiple times. This is reflected in the house edge.

According to the WoO Craps Side Bets page, the house edge on the Fire Bet is 20.73% to 24.86%, depending on the pay table.

Sharp Shooter has a house edge of 21.87%.

Small & Tall have a house edge of 7.76%. All has a house edge of 7.46%.

As a comparison, the house edge on Hard 6 & 8 is 9.09%; Hard 4 & 10 is 11.11%; Field is 2.78%

I would love if my local casino changed and implemented this. I first experienced this when going to Atlantic City. Caesars has this type of layout. Hop Bets are worthless.

So are side bets.

Quote: MathExtremist

For those, a flat fee. Percentages are impossible to gauge at table games anyway. Those bets probably go for $100-$200/table/month. Maybe as high as $250 if there's a strong demand or big performance. But it's just a side bet, and those particular side bets don't get made very often. They can't -- they take too long to resolve.

Is $100-$200/table/month bonus or side bet fee pretty much typical for all table games (BJ, mini-bac, poker, craps ...).

I think the most popular side bet in mini-bac is the dragon bonus bet. Does anyone know the typical licensing fee is for this side bet?

Quote: BlueEagle

From my observances, Fire Bet is the most popular of the three.

Shirley you jest? Been almost a year since that bet was eliminated in Biloxi. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

Played ats for first time this week. Played total of 7 hours this week. Have seen the all win once and the small and tall also each win once. I like the bet but I don't like that you have to replace it multiple times in one shooter. If you pUT $1 on each then you will have approx $9-$12 at risk each shooter. Thst is enough to to bleed you dr quickly: unless of course you hit one.

Now with the fire, I always play $1. In the course of a night you may only lose 25 or 30 on it.

Quote: GWAE

I like the bet but I don't like that you have to replace it multiple times in one shooter. If you pUT $1 on each then you will have approx $9-$12 at risk each shooter. Thst is enough to to bleed you dr quickly: unless of course you hit one.

This has become a major complaint of this bet by many now playing it.
another member made a webpage here
http://www.alanbestbuys.com/id449.html
I have also heard those 7 winner and point winner 'moans' at Caesars Palace and Bellagio too and all the way west to the Pahrump Nugget. Not an isolated 'cry'

The casinos have most all changed to '31 for 1' and '151 for 1' blasting close to 20% (all small, all tall) and past the 20% HE (make em tall).
Nothing like variance to make casinos 'feel the bet'.

There IS a simple solution and I am sure Galaxy G knows it.
I think GG bought the game from another company, so it may not be so clear to them.

Have all 3 wagers PUSH when a winner 7 (come out roll 7) is rolled.
The bets can only lose on a 7 out. Just like the old Fire bet did.
(but if a new # is rolled it is counted)
and make the bet B4 the 1st cor and on the 7 out - take or pay) of course, this would make the bets easier to win and one would have to lower the payouts.
<<<<<>>>>>
I did not calculate this, yet, but a simulation is very easy to run.
I show by making the a-small/a-tall bets
payout to '20 for 1' a house edge of about 5.7% (more than 00 Roulette).
This was over 3 million shooters.

'make em all' sim was 10 million shooters
with a payout of 75 for 1 a house edge is about 13.2%
with a payout of 70 for 1 a house edge is about 19%

lots of wiggle room for the house there.
and the frequency of the bet wins more often making the players even more happy (that make the bets)

well, we will see how long this goes.
Sally

I like that idea, unless it makes the payouts something like 10 to 1.

What if on a 7 come out your bet pushes, but the numbers all get knocked off so you start from scratch. You just don't lose any money.

However I am guessing casinos like the fact that this bet gets replaced multiple times during a roll.

Quote: GWAE

I like that idea, unless it makes the payouts something like 10 to 1.

my 1st idea comes to 20 for 1 and 75 for 1 (maybe 70 for 1)
and those I talked to it (at the craps table) said they would still play at those payoffs considering the bets would win more often.

Quote: GWAE

What if on a 7 come out your bet pushes, but the numbers all get knocked off so you start from scratch. You just don't lose any money.

a few also mentioned that.
I think that is worth looking into. (more on that idea coming later)

it might keep the payouts high but might make the bets a rare winner too.
that would not be so good.

Quote: GWAE

However I am guessing casinos like the fact that this bet gets replaced multiple times during a roll.

I am sure they do but they most all have also lowered the payouts too increasing the HE on all the bets. so they did not like everything about the bets.

Sally

You could also have the bet turned “off” during come out rolls.

Quote: unJon

You could also have the bet turned “off” during come out rolls.

I also have that as a thought... but I think it would only increase the number of rolls for a win and not change the probabilities.
maybe the players would not like that as much.

On the come out roll, just a 'winner 7' would not cause the bet to lose
but say if the roll was a number that had NOT yet rolled, it would be counted, just as it currently is, so it can still win on a come out roll.

I was just at a casino and 2 dealers talked about the Bonus Craps bets. The table was empty.
as my Mom wanted to play her free play.
I asked the dealers what they thought and both agreed, without any coaching or suggestions, that the bet should not lose on the come out roll.

I gave a couple other suggestions and they still liked the idea of either
no lose on a 7 winner
or
no lose wager on a 7 and the rolled numbers already marked come down.

they like the larger payoffs, so they get more tips.
smart thinking there and the 2 girl dealers, they were cute too!

simulation and calculation time
Sally