Should you always max odds before making come bets?

I'm a pretty new craps player and I need some advice. I just want to play for fun and not lose a ton of money. Anyway, it seems to me like the game is much more fun when you have multiple numbers in play (imho). My issue is, it gets a little too rich for my blood at times if I am completely maxing out the odds. I'm used to only playing $15 - $20 hands in Blackjack.

For example, if I'm at a $5 table and I max out odds on the pass line and I have one $5 come bet and max out the odds on that, I could have around $60 on the table at once. If I'm going to play a session with $500 seems like I could be dead in the water pretty quick.

So, here is my question. Would it be crazy to just play the pass and 2 times odds so I can then play a come bet with 2 times odds? This allows me to have more numbers in play, which is a bit more fun, but limit the amount I have on the table at any one time to $30. Would this just be a dumb play? Would it be better to just stick with the pass line and maxing out the odds there? I'd be willing to give up a little in order to have more fun (more numbers in play), but don't want to make a terrible gambling move.

Playing full free odds lowers the house advantage, so if you can afford it, do it.

However, if the total amount you're betting by taking the free odds if more than your tolerance, don't do that.

It would technically be better to play the pass, take full odds there, and forget about the come bet. That way you're playing within your betting amount tolerances and lowering the house advantage to as much as possible.

In the end, it's all -EV, though (my opinion, skilled dice setters excepted).

If you're playing for fun, try to find the lowest table minimums. It's really up to you but never bet more than what you're comfortable with. If taking 2x odds is more fun, do it (the difference isn't huge at the amounts you're talking about ... i think it's about 0.37% vs 0.61% ... and if you have a $60 bet @ -0.37% compared to 2x$30 @ 0.61% I think your total expected losses are about a wash). Now, there are others here a lot smarter than me, so I'd wait for other replies ;^)

Mel

Quote: jeremytondo

I'm a pretty new craps player and I need some advice. I just want to play for fun and not lose a ton of money. Anyway, it seems to me like the game is much more fun when you have multiple numbers in play (imho). My issue is, it gets a little too rich for my blood at times if I am completely maxing out the odds. I'm used to only playing $15 - $20 hands in Blackjack.

For example, if I'm at a $5 table and I max out odds on the pass line and I have one $5 come bet and max out the odds on that, I could have around $60 on the table at once. If I'm going to play a session with $500 seems like I could be dead in the water pretty quick.

So, here is my question. Would it be crazy to just play the pass and 2 times odds so I can then play a come bet with 2 times odds? This allows me to have more numbers in play, which is a bit more fun, but limit the amount I have on the table at any one time to $30. Would this just be a dumb play? Would it be better to just stick with the pass line and maxing out the odds there? I'd be willing to give up a little in order to have more fun (more numbers in play), but don't want to make a terrible gambling move.

Technically you will be giving up more in expected loss if you play 2 pass/come bets with 2 times odds than if you just played 1 bet with max odds.

2 pass/come bets with max odds actually will have the same EV as the same bets with 2x odds, but much higher variance and risk of going bust as you noted.

I wouldn't characterize it as a "terrible" gambling move. I agree that it's more fun to have multiple numbers in action at a time. At the end of the day the goal is to have fun, and your strategy is a hell of a lot better than playing the field on every roll, covering the hardways, etc etc. I wouldn't sweat it.

Quote: jeremytondo

I'm a pretty new craps player and I need some advice. I just want to play for fun and not lose a ton of money. Anyway, it seems to me like the game is much more fun when you have multiple numbers in play (imho). My issue is, it gets a little too rich for my blood at times if I am completely maxing out the odds. I'm used to only playing $15 - $20 hands in Blackjack.

If your just having fun, and looking to gain experience?
Why not just play the pass line with single odds?
Socialize with other players and watch (whilst learning off their experience), simultaneously looking for patterns that are effective to your advantage.

It's a slow grind (and much more time consuming than BJ), however your just there for fun anyway.

2 pass/come + 2x odds would be fine.

From an expected loss stand-point, it doesn't matter if you take no odds at all, max odds, or somewhere in between. You expect to lose 1.41% of your $5 pass/come bets, and 0% on any odds. The odds just make the game more fun/volatile. But, playing the odds does NOT decrease your expected loss. So when people say, "Playing odds decreases the house edge" -- that's a very misleading statement.

Quote: RS

2 pass/come + 2x odds would be fine.

From an expected loss stand-point, it doesn't matter if you take no odds at all, max odds, or somewhere in between. You expect to lose 1.41% of your $5 pass/come bets, and 0% on any odds. The odds just make the game more fun/volatile. But, playing the odds does NOT decrease your expected loss. So when people say, "Playing odds decreases the house edge" -- that's a very misleading statement.

So let me understand this... If I bet 5 dollar dont pass and the casino is giving 100X odds which they have done... Your saying that it doesn't change the house edge when I lay my 100X odds?????????????????????????

FUN is at all times the operative term. Its your money and your time. Enjoy YOUR system, as long as its not betting Big Red every roll or something idiotic like that.

Quote: monet0412

So let me understand this... If I bet 5 dollar dont pass and the casino is giving 100X odds which they have done... Your saying that it doesn't change the house edge when I lay my 100X odds?????????????????????????

Correct.

If you bet $5 on the pass line, you can expect to lose 1.41% on average of that $5.


If you bet $5 on the pass line and $500 on odds, you can expect to lose 1.41% on average of that $5.


What happens to the odds part of that bet?
the house edge on the $500 is 0%, so that is how much of that you can expect to lose on average.

Quote: monet0412

So let me understand this... If I bet 5 dollar dont pass and the casino is giving 100X odds which they have done... Your saying that it doesn't change the house edge when I lay my 100X odds?????????????????????????

The house edge on any game is a specific term that means very particular things on each game. The HE on your 5 dollar DP is exactly the same whether you bet 0X odds or 100X odds. You can expect to lose exactly the same amount of money in that case to the HE, which pertains to the long run; they are underpaying your wins a certain amount in order to create an HE. Whether you survive the variance is an entirely different question. :)

Your personal EV is affected by how many odds you play, as it dilutes the pinch of the HE. But the HE itself, "HOUSE edge" to the casino, not you, doesn't change. The HOUSE doesn't take an "edge" on the odds behind the pass/DP line; they're paid as true odds. The house gets its pay by forcing you to bet the pass/DP line in order to place odds.

Yeah, I said the same thing 4 different ways there, and the guy above me who answered at the same time, said the same thing a different way. It's a hard thing to grasp, but your personal exposure is from a different perspective than the casino's.

Quote: beachbumbabs

The house edge on any game is a specific term that means very particular things on each game. The HE on your 5 dollar DP is exactly the same whether you bet 0X odds or 100X odds. You can expect to lose exactly the same amount of money in that case to the HE, which pertains to the long run; they are underpaying your wins a certain amount in order to create an HE. Whether you survive the variance is an entirely different question. :)

Your personal EV is affected by how many odds you play, as it dilutes the pinch of the HE. But the HE itself, "HOUSE edge" to the casino, not you, doesn't change. The HOUSE doesn't take an "edge" on the odds behind the pass/DP line; they're paid as true odds. The house gets its pay by forcing you to bet the pass/DP line in order to place odds.

Yeah, I said the same thing 4 different ways there, and the guy above me who answered at the same time, said the same thing a different way. It's a hard thing to grasp, but your personal exposure is from a different perspective than the casino's.

I know what you are saying and what they are saying but I fear that players looking for an edge that are new might not understand. Basically I am saying that it is always better to play with max odds no matter what compared to playing with no odds. If you don't have the proper BR to play with max odds you shouldn't mess with this game since you can find much better unless your one of those guys who believes they can control the dice!

Quote: monet0412

So let me understand this... If I bet 5 dollar dont pass and the casino is giving 100X odds which they have done... Your saying that it doesn't change the house edge when I lay my 100X odds?????????????????????????

Yes, that is what we are saying.

Quote: monet0412

I know what you are saying and what they are saying but I fear that players looking for an edge that are new might not understand. Basically I am saying that it is always better to play with max odds no matter what compared to playing with no odds. If you don't have the proper BR to play with max odds you shouldn't mess with this game since you can find much better unless your one of those guys who believes they can control the dice!

Why do you think this?

Perhaps RS will be surprised when I say I agree with him.

The classic example of the player who should not max his odds is the one who says he is not comfortable with the increased size of the bet.

Awesome advice, thanks a ton everyone! I have one related follow up question. Let's say I was playing at a $5 min table with 3,4,5 times max odds. If I want to play the pass line with max odds and one come bet with max odds, what would an appropriate bankroll be for around 2 - 3 hours of play?

Guess: I'd say $500 would probably be fine.

Quote: RS

Guess: I'd say $500 would probably be fine.

As long as being the 1 in 8 (abouts)
not to last the 3 hours of play

(I used 270 dice rolls for a stop in me simulations)

in other words
IF it is MORE fun busting out a $500 bankroll in less than 3 hours
Yahoo!
Sally

Quote: jeremytondo

<snip>, what would an appropriate bankroll be for around 2 - 3 hours of play?

I would say $1000 to make it through the night 3 hour session
those 6 and 8s can kill while having no warning label or a jacket on

and
one can search for data like this in some simulations I did run some time ago
should B easy to find
the 2 or the 3 point Molly method of madness

I always had the come odds OFF on the come out roll (during the sim)
craps players seem to play scared...
in other words
they do not like to lose
or something like that
all bets OFF so I can't lose
lots of fun there too

good luck in your fun

Sally

Quote: jeremytondo

...new craps player...want to play for fun and not lose a ton of money...

With Craps it can get confusing with the term House Edge. As has been pointed out on average you lose about 7c for each $5 bet on the Pass or Come. If you were a brand new player playing for fun then I'd suggest betting pass (or don't pass) bets and just watch the game. You won't win a lot, you won't lose a lot, but it will be very similar to betting Red/Black at roulette. From thereon you have a choice.
(a) Add odds - this doesn't affect how much, on average, you'd win; but it does change whether you might win a lot or lose a lot. Mathematically it's increasing the variance.
(b) Add come bets - this does increase how much, on average, you'd win since you're making more bets per hour. However, on average, you'd make twice as much on a good roll and, unless an immediate 7-out, lose twice as much on a short roll.

If you're a $10-20 BJ player then technically you're best having a $5 pass with single, double or treble odds. If you're after fun, and accept that it will cost you twice as much in the long term, then have a pass and come bet (with single odds).

Interesting no-one has mentioned the alternative of placing the 6 or 8 for $6 (I'm assuming they pay 7/6). While the House Edge is slightly higher (per resolution) you might find it more fun.