Craps House Edge Lowered w/Odds?
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Also do I keep my odds working on the come out roll even when I'm betting the don't?
when you lay odds behind your don't the odds are always working........when you take odds behind your do, the odds are off on the comeout unless you call them on. Its your c hoice as it makes no difference.
Quote: ontariodealeryes taking or laying odds reduces the house edge, 2x to .82 and 3x to .62 etc
when you lay odds behind your don't the odds are always working........when you take odds behind your do, the odds are off on the comeout unless you call them on. Its your c hoice as it makes no difference.
But on the don't you have to take 6x odds, not 3 or 2. (And isn't it usually 2x-3x-5x? Not sure where you came up with 2 and 3).
In reality, you have a bet with a 1.41% HE then an optional bet with a 0% HE. You could add them together and come up with a combined HE on total action....but that's just weird. Doing so would imply there exists a house edge on the odds bet, since you're coming up with a combined HE on a combination of bets.
Odds have no house edge. If you have a $100 pass line bet, your expected loss is $1.41. Put max odds or no odds -- your expected loss is still $1.41.
I agree -- the effect of odds is to increase your total wagering volume without increasing your expected loss. That expected loss ($1.41 for every $100 pass line wager) doesn't change when you take odds on a $100 bet, but the total wager does.Quote: RSPlacing the odds bet (in a weird twisted way) could be considered to lower the house edge. I just REALLY dislike that -- it makes no sense to me. It's a misnomer IMO.
In reality, you have a bet with a 1.41% HE then an optional bet with a 0% HE. You could add them together and come up with a combined HE on total action....but that's just weird. Doing so would imply there exists a house edge on the odds bet, since you're coming up with a combined HE on a combination of bets.
Odds have no house edge. If you have a $100 pass line bet, your expected loss is $1.41. Put max odds or no odds -- your expected loss is still $1.41.
It's certainly true that if you want to bet a total of $100, your expected loss will be lower if you bet $5 on the line and $95 behind it ($0.07 expected loss) than if you bet all $100 on the line with no odds ($1.41 expected loss). But for most people, the choice is not between "do I put $5 on the line and $20 behind, or do I just put $25 on the line?" -- instead, it's "after I put $5 on the line, how much in odds do I feel like betting?"
For anyone who plays that way, with a constant line bet rather than a constant total wager, making odds bets does not actually improve anything. The expected loss for a player consistently making $5 line bets is roughly $2.50 per hour regardless of whether odds are taken or how much.
Quote: HotBlondeBut on the don't you have to take 6x odds, not 3 or 2. (And isn't it usually 2x-3x-5x? Not sure where you came up with 2 and 3).
you have things mixed up a a little....my example of 2x then 3 x was for taking odds on the pass/come...it shows the more odds you take how the edge comes down......on the dont' you do not have to lay 6x, that is the max you can lay on a 3/4/5 table.....you can lay single odds if you like.
The typical Craps player blows all this by making middle table bets. Is that going to be you?
I seem to be running better now that I make sure my odds are on all the time. Ironically, during the action it seems like the opposite. It's a case of selective memory because it's a definite 'ouch' when it backfires. I have found the best way to do this rightside is to tell the dealer "always working please" when I give them the chips. If the table is noisy it can be hard to keep this up otherwise.
my opinionQuote: HotBlondeI was told by a forum member friend that when you take or place odds on your craps bet (don't pass or pass) that it lowers the house edge. Is this true?
the combined
house edge for the 2 bets treated as 1 bet
is
lower than just 1 bet being pass or dpass...
but
the house edge
for the dpass/pass line bets made on the come out roll and the odds bet made after the come out roll do not change.
They never have and they never will... cuz they are 2 different bets. Very different. sucker bets too (dp and p).
ask any craps expert, they know but may not tell the whole (100%) truth if that is what you are after.
most here in the USA are 420 friendly.
***
those that express their opinions on any craps matter
often
most times tell only part truths, partly so.
like me making pass line bets with 345x odds and having at least a 1.25% edge in my favor over the casino.
it is like how
and I say say negotiate it.
for the dpass or the pass one is not making the odds bet on the come out rollQuote: HotBlondeAlso do I keep my odds working on the come out roll even when I'm betting the don't?
that would be silly
cuz
what point is it on when there is no point established?
you must be talking about a come bet that has moved to a number or a dcome that has moved behind the number
or maybe you are not
as I love ice cream
fact remains
house edge for odds bets = 0%
if you do not believe that,
try to change it and see what the Dealers do and say about it.
say it isnt so
Nice to see posts from you again. I was worried you would pull a 7craps and not post anymore. Like 7craps I dont always understand everything in your posts but I can say there is not a post of yours that I dont learn something. With talk of craps, sex, 420, sports and winning at the tables, your posts are a good read.Quote: mustangsallymy opinion
the combined
house edge for the 2 bets treated as 1 bet
is
lower than just 1 bet being pass or dpass...
but
the house edge
for the dpass/pass line bets made on the come out roll and the odds bet made after the come out roll do not change.
They never have and they never will... cuz they are 2 different bets. Very different. sucker bets too (dp and p).
ask any craps expert, they know but may not tell the whole (100%) truth if that is what you are after.
most here in the USA are 420 friendly.
***
those that express their opinions on any craps matter
often
most times tell only part truths, partly so.
like me making pass line bets with 345x odds and having at least a 1.25% edge in my favor over the casino.
it is like how
and I say say negotiate it.
for the dpass or the pass one is not making the odds bet on the come out roll
that would be silly
cuz
what point is it on when there is no point established?
you must be talking about a come bet that has moved to a number or a dcome that has moved behind the number
or maybe you are not
as I love ice cream
fact remains
house edge for odds bets = 0%
if you do not believe that,
try to change it and see what the Dealers do and say about it.
say it isnt so
I couldn't agree more with RS's statement. There's arguments made both ways, but at the end of the day I look at the Expected Value of all wagers in play to determine the overall EV.Quote: RSPlacing the odds bet (in a weird twisted way) could be considered to lower the house edge. I just REALLY dislike that -- it makes no sense to me. It's a misnomer IMO.
Let's say you have $100 pass line bet and you're going to put $200 odds on it.
EV = (100)*(-.0141) + (200)*(0) = -$1.41 + 0... the exact same odds as if you just only bet the pass line with no odds.
Look, guys, you can't keep saying EV and HE are the same thing. Or please take the equation below and perform your magic to make EV=HE
EV = Bet * HE
Okay... if EV = Bet * HE, how does the HE change by betting more?Quote: odiousgambit...EV = Bet * HE
How does the HE change in this example then by placing an odds bet?Quote: Romes...EV = (100)*(-.0141) + (200)*(0) = -$1.41 + 0... the exact same odds as if you just only bet the pass line with no odds.
From that equation, it's clear you view HE as a percentage but EV as a dollar figure. Most people use EV interchangeably with HE, both as percentages of wager. If you use EV as an absolute amount (of currency) then that's where the breakdown is.Quote: odiousgambitRomes, RS
Look, guys, you can't keep saying EV and HE are the same thing. Or please take the equation below and perform your magic to make EV=HE
EV = Bet * HE
For what it's worth, I tend to use EV as a percentage. If I want to describe a theoretical dollar loss, I'll say "theo" or "expected loss".
HmmmQuote: Romes...EV = (100)*(-.0141) + (200)*(0) = -$1.41 + 0... the exact same odds as if you just only bet the pass line with no odds.
How does the HE change in this example then by placing an odds bet?
my thought exactly (B4 any ice cream or skittles)
Here B my try
I might just do this wrong on purpose too
he
he
EV = Bet * HE
ok o
so HE = EV / Bet
***
-$1.41 = EV
AVG Bet = (100 * 1/3) + (300 * 2/3) = 700/3 (really?)
ev / bet =
-2100/346500 or (oars) 1/165 =
-0.006060606
yep
he is right
lower than 1.41% with glasses on nose.
who knew (yes she did)
combined house edge is a players delight
"Combined House Edge on Pass/Come & Taking Full Odds"
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/#toc-DefiningtheHouseEdge
Ahhh
ice cream
Sally
Quote: MathExtremistMost people use EV interchangeably with HE, both as percentages of wager
Then in those cases what they say makes sense. I see no reason to stick with those terms when trying to make sense of what someone else is saying.
Quote: RomesHow does the HE change in this example then by placing an odds bet?
I don't dispute that the initial bet's EV theo or expected loss remains the same when the odds bet is added. It goes back to the validity of saying that "the odds bet does not help you win more money" ... it's saying the same thing basically. MathExtremist points out correctly that most players try to do just that. They are only comfortable with a smaller bet but try to win more money by adding the odds bet. They get frustrated with that, the evidence for which often appearing here at this site with all those schemes to hedge their bets to lower the variance. The frustration of it has them go to the middle table bets as an alternative.
I do not play that way. I think of my average bet at Craps as "my bet" and I maintain that I have never gambled at a Craps table where my HE on that same average bet wasn't less than 0.5%.
I also maintain that RS and Romes mean Theo or Expected Loss when they say "EV". Grrrrrrrr.
And thank you, Sally.
Quote: RSIf we want to determine the combined HE for line+odds bet, then the odds bet has a house edge.
I'll accept that.
Huh? No it doesn't. That's like saying water has calories when you mix it into flour, salt, and yeast.* Bread has calories, water doesn't. The odds bet doesn't have any edge regardless of which other bets you make at the same time, whether that's the pass line, the hard 6, 3-6 on the turn, Red, Banker, a hand of video poker, 100 shares of AAPL, etc.Quote: RSIf we want to determine the combined HE for line+odds bet, then the odds bet has a house edge.
*I had a baguette from Ken's Artisan Bakery with dinner so Flour Water Salt Yeast is on my mind...
Quote: MathExtremistFlour Water Salt Yeast is on my mind...
For some reason that formula leaves out some kind of fat. As far as I know you can't get anything much edible if you make bread without it.
I know a tiny bit about it as every once in a while my wife asks me to make dinner rolls. If you are a homebrewer, and I am, you get the yeast part done right, and the patience part too.
Quote: MathExtremistHuh? No it doesn't. That's like saying water has calories when you mix it into flour, salt, and yeast.* Bread has calories, water doesn't. The odds bet doesn't have any edge regardless of which other bets you make at the same time, whether that's the pass line, the hard 6, 3-6 on the turn, Red, Banker, a hand of video poker, 100 shares of AAPL, etc.
*I had a baguette from Ken's Artisan Bakery with dinner so Flour Water Salt Yeast is on my mind...
That was my point exactly -- combining the bets to make a combined HE doesn't make sense because then the odds bet would have a HE (which it, obviously, doesn't). Proof by contradiction, if you will.
Quote: RSThat was my point exactly -- combining the bets to make a combined HE doesn't make sense because then the odds bet would have a HE (which it, obviously, doesn't). Proof by contradiction, if you will.
Well, everybody is going to dig their heels in and claim they were correct in the first place. And probably go back to saying EV, theoretical loss, expected loss, and HE are all the same thing.
There's a certain dynamic going on with the free odds that is interesting to observe. You have the evidence that the casinos don't like to offer anything more than 3x4x5x and will only offer 2x if they can get away with it. On the other hand, in certain competitive situations amongst casinos, 10x can gain hold. We see that on the East coast although at the moment I'm not sure who is offering what; my latest discovery is 5x at Mohegan Sun. Oh, I'm forgetting the 100x at all Horseshoe casinos [edit]
So, in certain places the fact that the odds HE is 0%, so who cares, is winning out.
Then you have the Steve Wynn types putting their foot down and saying 'no more' - it hurts us.
I think there is a certain narrative here that says players who dismiss what the free odds give are missing the boat.
Xenu? Siri's cousin?Quote: AcesAndEightsDear Xenu how can you people argue about minutiae and terminology like this for 3 pages?
Quote: AcesAndEightsDear Xenu how can you people argue about minutiae and terminology like this for 3 pages?
Thank you. $10 line bet is 14 cents. No matter what.
Quote: DeMangoThank you. $10 line bet is 14 cents. No matter what.
</thread>
Quote: TwoFeathersATLXenu? Siri's cousin?
Xenu, dictator of the Galactic Confederacy who 75 million years ago brought billions of his people to Earth (then known as "Teegeeack") in a DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes, and killed them with hydrogen bombs. Looks like this:
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the baker in our family, but traditional French baguettes are made with just those four ingredients.Quote: odiousgambitFor some reason that formula leaves out some kind of fat. As far as I know you can't get anything much edible if you make bread without it.
I know a tiny bit about it as every once in a while my wife asks me to make dinner rolls. If you are a homebrewer, and I am, you get the yeast part done right, and the patience part too.
Of course, it's possible to produce food with fewer ingredients too: both matzah and communion wafers are made from only flour and water. Whether you'd call those "much edible" is a different discussion, but they don't call matzah the "bread of affliction" for nothing...
