Place bet instead of odds

Sometimes while playing craps I like to make a string of come bets, two or three usually, and rarely I'll make a continuous chain of nonstop come bets, usually with double odds.

The problem with this (other than the ever-present risk of sevening out) is that if the shooter has a good roll, makes his PL point, and then rolls a natural seven on the ensuing come out roll, all my come bets go down (odds are returned, of course), and I have to start my come betting all over again.

This seems to happen often enough to irk me.

So, what to do?

Next time I try aggressive come betting I may just make a place bet on the come number instead of making an odds bet; for example, if the come number is five (with a five dollar come bet), instead of making a ten dollar odds bet I'd make a ten dollar place bet on the five, and leave the five dollar come bet naked, without odds.

Of course in doing so my payoff is decreased slightly, but the trade off is that the place bets would stay up if the PL point is made and the shooter rolls a natural on the ensuing come out.

This sounds like a form of hedging, and rubs me the wrong way.

If you're that spooked by the possible come out seven, maybe you should stop making come bets, and stick to place bets.

Or bet on any 7 on come out rolls. Yeah, that's also hedging, but should make you think twice about what you're planning.

The logical way to work it would be to stop making come bets at a certain point, such as when I have three come bets up with related place bets attached to them.

From then forward I'd just switch over to place bets only, if any further action at all.

Yes, mathematically this method is less sensible than come w/odds, but it would avoid a wipe out on a natural; I refuse to hedge with big red, "just because."

It's a new way of approaching the game, at least it's new to me, anyway, and there is little if anything new under the sun with bank craps.

See I prefer to go exactly the other way and let my odds work on the come out roll. If I wanted this bet on a normal roll, why would I not want it on the come out?

Only because if a shooter goes on a tear and has a hot roll, often he makes a natural on a come out, which would wipe out your come bets and force you to start over .

But I understand your play: you aren't "wrong" to leave the odds working: that's your personal preference to have max action on every roll.

Quote: MrV

Sometimes while playing craps I like to make a string of come bets, two or three usually, and rarely I'll make a continuous chain of nonstop come bets, usually with double odds.

The problem with this (other than the ever-present risk of sevening out) is that if the shooter has a good roll, makes his PL point, and then rolls a natural seven on the ensuing come out roll, all my come bets go down (odds are returned, of course), and I have to start my come betting all over again.

This seems to happen often enough to irk me.

So, what to do?

Next time I try aggressive come betting I may just make a place bet on the come number instead of making an odds bet; for example, if the come number is five (with a five dollar come bet), instead of making a ten dollar odds bet I'd make a ten dollar place bet on the five, and leave the five dollar come bet naked, without odds.

Of course in doing so my payoff is decreased slightly, but the trade off is that the place bets would stay up if the PL point is made and the shooter rolls a natural on the ensuing come out.

Don't you still lose your come bets when a co7 happens and the "odds re returned" isn't that the same thing as placing the 5 in this example that is off on the co? Same thing only a touch lesser odds, IIANM?

Quote: petroglyph

Don't you still lose your come bets when a co7 happens and the "odds re returned" isn't that the same thing as placing the 5 in this example that is off on the co? Same thing only a touch lesser odds, IIANM?

Petroglyph has a point.

If you're gonna continue with come bets, might as well put the odds on them. Then, if there's a come out 7, take the odds returned and THEN make your place bets to keep the number active.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Petroglyph has a point.

If you're gonna continue with come bets, might as well put the odds on them. Then, if there's a come out 7, take the odds returned and THEN make your place bets to keep the number active.

Do $10 odds on every come bet. If there's a come-out 7, dealer hands you your odds back. When a point is finally set, just place those numbers (or whichever numbers you prefer if you want something different) as $10 or $12 place-bets. Remember you want increments of $6 on the 6 & 8.


Something else you could do is, just do 1 PL bet, 1 come bet, and once your come bet has an established point, do a few place bets. Come bets are good, house-edge wise (doesn't matter what the odds are)...but they aren't very much fun, since you can't really choose where they go. Plus, it gets annoying if you do a come bet, it goes to 9 let's say, you don't do a come bet the next roll, 9 hits, you get paid $20, but have no come bet to keep it up. You place another come bet, 9 hits again...you give it odds, 9 hits...you won $20. But if you had just started with a $10 nine (of course, hindsight), you'd have like $56.

Somewhere I heard that the dice "have no memory" so ... why only be concerned about losing come bets when a point is made followed by a come-out 7 ... be just as concerned about a 7-out ...

Heck, make place bets with them working on the come-out roll and win then. A 7 can be rolled at anytime (during come-out phase or point phase) OR it can NOT be rolled at any time (during come-out phase or point phase) ... the only thing that you know is statistically it is 1 in every 6 rolls.

People tend to look at a come-out 7 as "good timing" or a chance to WIN on a 7 ... it is just a matter of a number being rolled when your bet(s) end up in your favor and you get paid.

I also wonder why people wait for buying the 4 or 10 until they are at the $20 level or more ... buy a 4 at $10 and you "waste" 50 cents as well as have $1 more at risk ... BUT a win ends up netting you $20 for $11 (when paid up front) instead of $18 for $10. The extra dollar spent is paid at full odds 2:1, and risking a dollar if a 4 isn't rolled .... well we are gambling, right?

The easiest way is to start with a Come and place all the numbers; gradually as points are rolled your odds bet come from the place bets ("down with odds") and the payout provides the next come bet (with some change). If the shooter makes a natural 7 then just use the odds to place the numbers and start again. If you're pushing then you may also be making your odds from x1 to x2 etc.; a natural 7 enables you to restart from x1.

I agree with new to craps. I like to place the 6&8 and have them working while placing the minimum pass line bet. If a 6 or 8 is rolled I just take down the place bet and play the odds behind the pass line. If another number is rolled I will place single odds behind 4&10 and double odds behind 5&9.

Quote: MrV

The problem with this (other than the ever-present risk of sevening out) is that if the shooter has a good roll, makes his PL point, and then rolls a natural seven on the ensuing come out roll, all my come bets go down (odds are returned, of course), and I have to start my come betting all over again.

I think you can pay to keep the Come bets up, but house rules may vary. For example, if you have a $5 Come bet on three numbers and a 7 comes during the Come Out Roll, I believe you can drop $15 and ask the dealer to keep the Come bets up. Only one dealer has ever asked me if I wanted to do this.


My current play consists of making only Place/Buy bets instead of a Pass Line bet with odds. I had been playing continuous Come with full odds. One night when I just couldn't win anything, a dealer recommended that I use Place bets so that I would win the first time the number is rolled instead of only after the number is rolled twice. I read up on Place bets and realized that I could risk the same amount of money (or less with a Buy) to win the same amount of money as making Pass Line and Come bets with full 3-4-5x odds. The advantages are winning the first time the number is rolled and not losing the Pass Line bet when craps is rolled on the Come Out Roll. The disadvantages are risking all the money up front and not winning the Pass Line bet when 7 or 11 is rolled on the Come Out Roll.

Pass Line bet with 3-4-5x odds:
$5 Pass Line wins $5
4/10: $15 odds wins $30
5/9: $20 odds wins $30
6/8: $25 odds wins $30

Place/Buy bets:
4/10: $18 Buy wins $35 (after $1 vig on win) OR $20 Buy wins $39 (after $1 vig on win)
5/9: $25 Place wins $35
6/8: $30 Place wins $35

As you can see, making Place/Buy bets equivalent to the combined Pass Line/Come bet with full odds wins the same total amount. I like the benefit of winning on the first roll. I've never been concerned about winning or losing 1/7 of the potential winnings on the Pass Line, which allows me to not sweat the lower house advantage on the tiny bet.

My current play is to Place/Buy all six numbers (as described above), working on Come Out Roll. When a 7 comes, I put another $150 on the table and leave all bets up and working. However, this play can be very volatile when shooters seven out before hitting at least four numbers, and is best accompanied with a considerable starting stack to ride the fluctuation.

Quote: BlueEagle

I think you can pay to keep the Come bets up, but house rules may vary. For example, if you have a $5 Come bet on three numbers and a 7 comes during the Come Out Roll, I believe you can drop $15 and ask the dealer to keep the Come bets up. Only one dealer has ever asked me if I wanted to do this...

You raise some interesting points.

Firstly it is technically wrong, unless you're allowed masses of Odds, to re-instate a Come bet. You're better off making the place bet (e.g. on 5 or 9 the $5 pays $7 rather than $5) and a Come bet - I know if a 4 or 10 appears you're now on a worse number, but if it was a 6 or 8 you'd be on a better number.

There are various ways to play Craps and, assuming we are comparing Come vs Place bets, they have different properties when you have 7-out, short rolls and long rolls.

Assume you bet 1 unit on all six numbers, repeated come (ignoring 11 2 3 12's)

Bets	7-out	Short roll	Longer Roll
Repeated Come/Single Odds	profit of 1	worst case could be lose 12 as you may not have had any money back	gradual profit.
Place and Come/Single Odds	loss of 5	less loss than above as Place bet pays for the Come bet, earlier break even	gradual profit.
Place only	loss of 6	possibly break even	slightly less profit (e.g. 4 pays 1.90 whereas the come+odds pays 3.)
Place and press	Much later break even point but more profit on a longer roll.

Quote: MrV

(CO7 wiping out my come bets) seems to happen often enough to irk me.

why?...no, ok, dont answer that: i know why...lol

but this whole topic and this whole thread seems to come down to simply preferences but i also think that it comes down to psychology...you place enough value on your bets not coming down such that you would make a higher HA bet---and a lower payout---just to avoid it...

your bets are just as likely-exactly as likely-to lose on the next roll even if you survived the CO roll, which of course is even worse since you've now lost the odds also...

...my advice is simply to look at all of your bets as just that: BETS that you will either win or lose...

...just sayin'...but this has helped me out quite a bit psychologically even if not materially and being a come bettor with odds also, i know the scenario all too well (i do also work the odds on the CO when out on only one come bet number--and very occasionally on two}...

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

In reference to the earlier posts asking if the "flat" portion of a Come bet can be replaced after a come out winner 7, the answer is yes. It behooves the House to offer this option as the "flat" ( the original Come bet) has a set house % against it , depending on the Come #, while the Odds don't carry any %..

Blueeagle


I understand the desire to win large so a person feels good, but to buck the HA that way is
certain death.
Every bet you have on the table is a rental agreement with the casino, the more places you rent, the higher
the rental payments. There are those that suggest you just need to have a large starting base when you want
to rent that many spots on the table because when things go bad you can dig a large whole before you
see some results. That should tell you something.

Over the past 40 years I have seen every single large better on our casino trip circuit come and go...none, not
a single one is left. The reason is you cant beat the casino just by betting large so now and then you get a big
win to brag about. If just betting across or betting large was the answer, there would not be a craps table in
the world, because there is no shortage of people with a lot of money.

If you want to bet large or gamble great, but at least be smart, watch the table a tad, what numbers appear more
than others, what is the average roll like at the time, and if you see some pattern place one large bet on a number
than has been hitting....If nearly every player is hitting a 10 or a 4 or a 5, that is where my money is going and at
first it is one bet.... I may win or I may lose, but it is the best information I have and that one single bet will carry
a much smaller collective HA than a number of bets. If I hit and roll goes on I can expand, but I am expanding
the number of bets I have based on information and also with some the of money I have won.

When you bet large across all you are saying is I don't have a clue what to do.

dicesetter

Quote: rudeboy99

In reference to the earlier posts asking if the "flat" portion of a Come bet can be replaced after a come out winner 7, the answer is yes. It behooves the House to offer this option as the "flat" ( the original Come bet) has a set house % against it , depending on the Come #, while the Odds don't carry any %..

you are just talking about a put bet here, correct?

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

No I wasn't. Lets say $5 is your basic "unit" starting out. You make a $5 Come bet, 8 rolls and your $5 is moved to the 8 box...regardless of how many odds you subsequently add to this bet, the original $5 is referred to as the "flat" bet within the industry. You soon have a $5 bet with 2X odds in the 8, 9, and 4 Come boxes...a winner 7 is rolled on the next come out...generally, most punters happily take the returned $30 in odds and then start over new trying to get some bets in action through the Come...what most players aren't aware of is they have the option of reloading the $15 worth of "flat" bets just lost and leaving their Come bets in place and in play once a new point is established. It's a risk some savvy players are willing to make in that they don't have to start over from square one.

Quote: rudeboy99

No I wasn't. Lets say $5 is your basic "unit" starting out. You make a $5 Come bet, 8 rolls and your $5 is moved to the 8 box...regardless of how many odds you subsequently add to this bet, the original $5 is referred to as the "flat" bet within the industry. You soon have a $5 bet with 2X odds in the 8, 9, and 4 Come boxes...a winner 7 is rolled on the next come out...generally, most punters happily take the returned $30 in odds and then start over new trying to get some bets in action through the Come...what most players aren't aware of is they have the option of reloading the $15 worth of "flat" bets just lost and leaving their Come bets in place and in play once a new point is established. It's a risk some savvy players are willing to make in that they don't have to start over from square one.

What you just described is in fact 3 put bets.

Quote: wilbsmitt

What you just described is in fact 3 put bets.

A Put bet is making a pass line bet any time after a point has already been established. Reloading the Come bets on the box numbers immediately after a 7 on the Come Out Roll is not a Put bet.

If you have your Come bet Odds working on the Come Out Roll and a 7 comes, can you reload the flat bet and the odds?

Quote: BlueEagle

A Put bet is making a pass line bet any time after a point has already been established. Reloading the Come bets on the box numbers immediately after a 7 on the Come Out Roll is not a Put bet.

If you have your Come bet Odds working on the Come Out Roll and a 7 comes, can you reload the flat bet and the odds?

A put bet is also making a flat bet with odds on come numbers before they are rolled. The contract flat bet is made without the initial advantage of winning on the 7. This is popular at places that offer 10x odds or more, the approximate point where it's advantageous to risk the flat(i.e. $110 place 9 pays $154, whereas $10/$100odds on 9 pay $160). I've seen many a high roller at 100x odds places bet $10 flat with $1000 odds on all the come #'s immediately after the comeout roll. Most casinos I've played at allows the reload you describe in your last sentence. Why wouldn't they, they have a large advantage on the flat. The only casino I've ever played at that doesn't allow put bets is the Grand Vic in Elgin Il.

Quote: BlueEagle

A Put bet is making a pass line bet any time after a point has already been established. Reloading the Come bets on the box numbers immediately after a 7 on the Come Out Roll is not a Put bet.

If you have your Come bet Odds working on the Come Out Roll and a 7 comes, can you reload the flat bet and the odds?

most places yes you can...and it IS called a put bet...pass and come are EXACTLY the same bets...there is NO DIFFERENCE between them and your pass line put bet is the same as a come put bet...in both cases you are "choosing" the "point"...

some few places, including my local joint, do not allow put bets except to increase the flat and/or odds on already established p/c bets with points...

tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p

When I was breaking in on quarter limit games, what we referred to as a Put bet ONLY was a 25 cent flat bet with 50 cent odds ( only available on the four outside #s) that the base dealer would "PUT" in the Come box the #s indicated by the player, placed in relation to the players table position. It was for grinders to use to try to press their way to larger $1.25 outside PB's. The flat worked on the CO, but the odds were off automatically. This I was taught and have always assumed was a "Put bet".