craps odds question

When playing pass or don't pass are there times where you should or shouldn't place odds?

Example: you bet don't pass

the roll is a 4 or 9, since the house edge for betting on these two are high this is a time to place odds behind your don't pass bet, correct?

Example: you bet don't pass

the roll is a 6 or 8.....don't place odds because they are more common?

thanks

Odds bets pay off in direct proportion to how likely you are to win or lose.

For example, if you bet don't pass and the point is 6, an odds bet will win 6/11 of the time, but it only pays 5-6 (so if you bet $6, you will win $5 six times out of 11 and lose $6 five times out of eleven; not coincidentally, after 11 such bets, you break even).

The same thing applies when the point is 4, 5, 8, 9, or 10 (except that the odds are 1-2 on 4 and 10, and 2-3 on 5 and 9), and when your original bet is pass (except that now you get the high end of the odds - e.g. if the point is 4, it pays 2-1 instead of 1-2).

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Odds bets pay off in direct proportion to how likely you are to win or lose.

For example, if you bet don't pass and the point is 6, an odds bet will win 6/11 of the time, but it only pays 5-6 (so if you bet $6, you will win $5 six times out of 11 and lose $6 five times out of eleven; not coincidentally, after 11 such bets, you break even).

The same thing applies when the point is 4, 5, 8, 9, or 10 (except that the odds are 1-2 on 4 and 10, and 2-3 on 5 and 9), and when your original bet is pass (except that now you get the high end of the odds - e.g. if the point is 4, it pays 2-1 instead of 1-2).

ok so based on the number rolled you may or may not want to play odds

meaning if a 6 or 8 is rolled and you are on dont pass then do not place odds?

also, you can only place chips on "dont come" after a point is established right?

thanks

Quote: richbailey86

ok so based on the number rolled you may or may not want to play odds

meaning if a 6 or 8 is rolled and you are on dont pass then do not place odds?

i say
it depends if you think/feel the dice will be in your favor or not over the next bets you make

if the dice do as expected, you do not win or lose any money on the odds bet
so it can be up to you, it can B

example:
you now have a don't come 6

say you lay $6 to win $5 on the lay odds
there are 6 ways to win $5 ($30 total)
5 ways to lose $6 (-$30 total)

so over the very next 11 bets and the dice do their average thing
it is a wash - a push

you need one more win to have a profit
you need one more loss to have a loss over those 11 bets

nothing guaranteed in writing that you get one over the other
except the math shows for those 11 bets a probability = 0.3852774 for at least 7 wins
0.3786313 for 5 or less wins in 11 attempts

try out the other numbers and you will see the same thing
==============================
bottom line
over a lifetime of play your odds bet (per bet) will lose very close to 0%(maybe even exactly 0% but do not count on it)
of the total wagered
but the chances increase with more odds bets you make
that you will
either
show a net lifetime win
or
a net lifetime loss from those odds bets
and it cant be both

Quote: richbailey86

also, you can only place chips on "dont come" after a point is established right?

thanks

yes
you can place it there on the come out roll but the dealer if they notice it will either move it to the dpass
or give it back to you telling you can not make this bet unless a point is established

Quote: mustangsally

i say
it depends if you think/feel the dice will be in your favor or not over the next bets you make

if the dice do as expected, you do not win or lose any money on the odds bet
so it can be up to you, it can B

example:
you now have a don't come 6

say you lay $6 to win $5 on the lay odds
there are 6 ways to win $5 ($30 total)
5 ways to lose $6 (-$30 total)

so over the very next 11 bets and the dice do their average thing
it is a wash - a push

you need one more win to have a profit
you need one more loss to have a loss over those 11 bets

nothing guaranteed in writing that you get one over the other
except the math shows for those 11 bets a probability = 0.3852774 for at least 7 wins
0.3786313 for 5 or less wins in 11 attempts

try out the other numbers and you will see the same thing
==============================
bottom line
over a lifetime of play your odds bet (per bet) will lose very close to 0%(maybe even exactly 0% but do not count on it)
of the total wagered
but the chances increase with more odds bets you make
that you will
either
show a net lifetime win
or
a net lifetime loss from those odds bets
and it cant be both

yes
you can place it there on the come out roll but the dealer if they notice it will either move it to the dpass
or give it back to you telling you can not make this bet unless a point is established

thanks

i will be in AC in June for my bachelor party and i think i will play this way

some bets on pass line then after a point is made make a come bet

and also lay the 4 and 10 since i think thats a good bet to

this game is getting easier and easier the more i learn

however my luck says if i lay the 4 the 4 will come, a lot

Quote: richbailey86

however my luck says if i lay the 4 the 4 will come, a lot

it has to me
i think i lost 6 in a row one time on the Strip
the table laughed at me and some players did too

so i had more money and increased my Lay 4 and asked each shooter are they going to cause my bet to lose
I think i won the next 5 or 6 but my wins were way higher than my losses

one of the fun parts of playing craps

Have fun if that is possible!

I be in Vegas from May 22 to May 28 (event #3 WSOP)
I know i will have fun
Sally

Quote: mustangsally

it has to me
i think i lost 6 in a row one time on the Strip
the table laughed at me and some players did too

so i had more money and increased my Lay 4 and asked each shooter are they going to cause my bet to lose
I think i won the next 5 or 6 but my wins were way higher than my losses

one of the fun parts of playing craps

Have fun if that is possible!

I be in Vegas from May 22 to May 28 (event #3 WSOP)
I know i will have fun
Sally

wish i could come

i will be in AC at cesars and harrahs weekend of june 12th (im on east coast)

the thing i realized today while looking over craps stuff is if u lay the 4 u will win a lot more then u lose, however u only get PAID HALF...theres the HE

Quote: richbailey86

the thing i realized today while looking over craps stuff is if u lay the 4 u will win a lot more then u lose, however u only get PAID HALF...theres the HE

not really
on a Lay or Buy bet the casino pays your winning bet in direct proportion to the odds against the bet winning

examples

Buy 4
bet $20
chances to win are 3 in 9
odds 6:3 or (2:1)
so you are paid on a win $2 for every $1 bet
so $20 pays $40
there is no HE
the casino knows this so they charge either 5% of the bet when the bet is made or $5 of the bet when it wins
there is the house edge

all Buy bets are dogs, they lose more often than they win
that is exactly why they pay more than what is bet

Lay 4
bet $40
chances to win are 6 in 9 (66.67%) <<<--- Yahoo!!
odds 3:6 or (1:2)
so you are paid on a win $1 for every $2 bet
so $40 pays $20
and you do get the bet back too

again
there is no HE

the casino knows this and wants their cut
so they either charge 5% of how much one can win ($1 in me example)
when the bet is made
or
5% of the win once the bet wins (i say 50% do one, 50% the other)

all Lay bets are favorites, they win more often than they lose
and they win on ANY 7
that is exactly why they pay less than what is bet

like sports betting on the odds on favorite

Angles OVER!

Sally

does vegas make you pay the vig upfront or when the bet hits?

I think its different on east and west coast but not sure

For me having a sound betting technique works better for me cause i hate thinking under pressure

So i practiced on the wizards craps game as follows:
Make a pass bet
If point established
Make a come bet
Once i have a pass and come bet
Make 1 field bet

Did this for an hour and bankroll looked good

Quote: richbailey86

So i practiced on the wizards craps game as follows:
Make a pass bet
If point established
Make a come bet
Once i have a pass and come bet
Make 1 field bet

Did this for an hour and bankroll looked good

Rich, be advised that the Wizard's craps game features a 3:1 payout on the 12 for a 2.78% house edge on the field bet. You might want to check the tables before you place a field bet because many properties offer only 2:1 payouts on the 2 & 12. This will double the house edge to 5.56%. The way to check is to look at the numbers on field bet layout on the table itself. The 2 and the 12 at the ends of the line of numbers will be circled with a notation above (or possibly below). If above the 12 (sometimes, but rarely, it will be above the 2 instead) the notation reads "Pays Triple," then the bet will have the 2.78% edge. If both notations say "Pays Double," it is the 5.56% edge variety.

Now, despite what my sig may imply, I have never been to AC, but there are several AC guys (& gals) on the forum. Some of them might be able to tell you which variety of field bet payouts are available at which casinos. Unfortunately, my gut tells me that the two properties you mentioned (both owned by Caeser's Entertainment -- referred to by the acronym "CET" often on this site) will have the stingy 5.56% payout. CET properties are often notorious for offering unfavorable (for the player) rules on their games.

Now, since I have no direct knowledge, I could very well be wrong about this. Like I stated above, you may want to see if some of the AC craps players on the forum can tell you which casinos have the lower edge field bets.

Quote: Joeman

Rich, be advised that the Wizard's craps game features a 3:1 payout on the 12 for a 2.78% house edge on the field bet. You might want to check the tables before you place a field bet because many properties offer only 2:1 payouts on the 2 & 12. This will double the house edge to 5.56%. The way to check is to look at the numbers on field bet layout on the table itself. The 2 and the 12 at the ends of the line of numbers will be circled with a notation above (or possibly below). If above the 12 (sometimes, but rarely, it will be above the 2 instead) the notation reads "Pays Triple," then the bet will have the 2.78% edge. If both notations say "Pays Double," it is the 5.56% edge variety.

Now, despite what my sig may imply, I have never been to AC, but there are several AC guys (& gals) on the forum. Some of them might be able to tell you which variety of field bet payouts are available at which casinos. Unfortunately, my gut tells me that the two properties you mentioned (both owned by Caeser's Entertainment -- referred to by the acronym "CET" often on this site) will have the stingy 5.56% payout. CET properties are often notorious for offering unfavorable (for the player) rules on their games.

Now, since I have no direct knowledge, I could very well be wrong about this. Like I stated above, you may want to see if some of the AC craps players on the forum can tell you which casinos have the lower edge field bets.

Thanks

My local bubble craps pays triple on the 2 and 12 which is nice

Hi Rich,

I am a newbie here and late to the party when contributing to your question but here goes. The odds bet has 0% HE. Some people advocate maxing out on the odds bet to decrease your overall HE. The problem with this approach is that you are exposing more money to the HE. For instance, if you bet $5 pass line, in the long run you expect to lose $.07 (1.4% of $5). If you add double odds ($10), you decrease the overall HE to 0.572% but your loss would be $0.086 (0.572% of $15). Your fluctuation would be greater as your win/loss would be greater. If you have the bank roll and can withstand the ups and downs, this would be a good way to play craps.
To answer your question as to if there is a time in which you should or should not take or lay odds, it depends on your bank roll, on if you are a pure math guy or a guy who sometimes rely on his intuition, on the feel of the table (hot, cold, choppy). Personally i like 3-4-5 odds (since my bank roll is ok for it) because I have a better chance of hitting the 6/8>5/9>4/10 so I bet more on those numbers.

Quote: whodat

The odds bet has 0% HE.

TRUE and only true if the amount bet is a proper unit of the payout.

Quote: whodat

Some people advocate maxing out on the odds bet to decrease your overall HE.

TRUE
the combined HE

Quote: whodat

The problem with this approach is that you are exposing more money to the HE.

FALSE

Quote: whodat

For instance, if you bet $5 pass line, in the long run you expect to lose $.07 (1.4% of $5).

TRUE per bet
average bet = $5

Quote: whodat

If you add double odds ($10), you decrease the overall HE to 0.572% but your loss would be $0.086 (0.572% of $15).

FALSE
the avg bet does not equal $15
this is known as an Enron Accounting method (from my understanding)

please re-calculate your average bet for $5/$10 odds

MAYbe this can help
1/3 $5 is resolved
2/3 $15 is resolved
math required

i show the combined HE (for 2x odds) is simply -7/495 * 1/(2 1/3) = -7/1155
fyi: 1/(2 1/3) = 1/(7/3)

i think we are on the same page

Quote: whodat

To answer your question as to if there is a time in which you should or should not take or lay odds, it
1) depends on your bank roll,
2) on if you are a pure math guy
3) or a guy who sometimes rely on his intuition,
4) on the feel of the table (hot, cold, choppy).

lots and lots of choices there
btw, a guy's intuition, haha and yuk, stay with a women's - they rule at craps

can one choose more than one from your list?
like 4C2
or
4P2
because for some, order matters
and for others
they do not really care about the order of this stuff

Quote: whodat

Personally i like 3-4-5 odds (since my bank roll is ok for it) because
I have a better chance of hitting the 6/8>5/9>4/10 so I bet more on those numbers.

but the 6 and 8 odds only pays 6 to 5
and the 4&10, while their frequency is less that the 6&8, they pay more than the 6&8 at 2 to 1

i say,imo, bet more on the numbers that pay more
wait
did i say that? Oh
Oh yes, I am a Lay bet expert but that is a different animal than any line bet ever will B

OP should be confused by now or even more ready to hit the craps tables
it will be his party

Quote: richbailey86

My local bubble craps pays triple on the 2 and 12 which is nice

you B lucky
is that the 3 dice interblock organic craps machine?
here in CA they pay 2x on the 2 and 3x on the 12

i do not recall seeing organic craps in Las Vegas but the "shoot to win" craps machines
can be heard all over town!

Quote: mustangsally

you B lucky
is that the 3 dice interblock organic craps machine?
here in CA they pay 2x on the 2 and 3x on the 12

i do not recall seeing organic craps in Las Vegas but the "shoot to win" craps machines
can be heard all over town!

hmmmm im not sure if interblock but i think it is

yea played martingale on it with $15, field only...won $200

dumb move on my part but man field was hot for my time there

when ya have drinks in ya ya do dumb thangs

Quote: richbailey86

My local bubble craps pays triple on the 2 and 12 which is nice

IS THIS TRUE!!??? triple on BOTH the 2 & 12?? I have been searching in vain for the rumored availability of this free (no vig) bet...WHERE is this "local bubble craps" might i ask??!
tom "home runs are often boring" p

Quote: betwthelines

IS THIS TRUE!!??? triple on BOTH the 2 & 12?? I have been searching in vain for the rumored availability of this free (no vig) bet...WHERE is this "local bubble craps" might i ask??!
tom "home runs are often boring" p

I might be wrong. Sorry. Just on the 12 i believe

Yes just the 12 i checked a pic i took. Sorry

Double on 2 triple on 12

Quote: richbailey86

I might be wrong. Sorry. Just on the 12 i believe

Yes just the 12 i checked a pic i took. Sorry

Double on 2 triple on 12

thanks for checking...it's an oft alleged rumor...have posted inquiries on this and other forums looking for it. no luck. i have called to a couple of different casinos (in the albuquerque area, which is in fact a hotbed for free buys on the 4 & 10) and they claimed that they USED TO have it but no longer offer it...still looking...tom "home runs are often boring" p

I played marty on the field

15 30 60 120

Got to 120 once

Man im dumb when i drink

Quote: champ724

does vegas make you pay the vig upfront or when the bet hits?

some upfront and some on a win

i do not know about every casino in Las Vegas as i do not play at every casino in Las Vegas

And over a few years, one casino that did charge only on a win now charges upfront

I find more charge on a win Downtown for the 4&10 bets
but if it really matters
ask the dealers at the table you find yourself at

i still feel 50% do way and 50% do the other way