Caesars - How Specifically to Ensure Optimally Rated at Craps (and Philosophical question)
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Now the host(I am relatively new to this host thing) was nice enough to comp me rooms at the Cromwell. He did point out he had to make an exception and asked for "solid play" from me. I am trying to be respectful of that request.
The problem for me seems to be that I get much higher ratings at my main casino (Horseshoe Baltimore) than at the Vegas properties.
My play style is simple, I put out the minimum bet on pass line, back with full odds, then bet come bets with full odds until I have covered 3-6 points. I feel like in Baltimore I am getting credit for all those come line bets (I suspect not the odds) so that I have (on $15 table... $45 to $90 average bet going). In Vegas it feels like they are only picking up the pass line bet. Also I find that I tend to bounce around more in Vegas, (i.e. switch Casinos/Tables after 1-2 hours vs a typical 4 hour session in Baltimore(obviously I stay put more with the hotel a 15 minute cab ride and no other casino option)
Analytic Questions:
1) Is my issue the table time (i.e. is the that the most important thing ... play at least 4 hours at one table or is it 4 hours in one casino... making sure pit boss tracks me to next table)
2) How do I know what average bet they are using for me (are they counting all the come bets or just the first pass line bet)
3) Would it be better to bet the inside (5-6-8-9) at $15-$18-$18-$15 and replace with come bets as the come up... and guarantee a higher average bet?
4) Which leads again to the 1st question, should i focus on a higher average bet or longer play time
Philosophical Question: (RaleighCraps)
1) Is all this worth it... or should I bet pretty much any i feel like. Typically at a craps table (even a $15 table), $1K swings per hour are typical... which would easily could represent the cost of the room. Plus I am supporting the resort as I use their other facilities. In short, I want to respect the effort of my host but still feel to play my own game.
Thoughts... plus if anyone is around (RaleighCraps you are due for for Vegas trip right?) let know and we can discuss at the craps table :-)
I'm surprised you're getting this much attention, do you have some other play you haven't mentioned? Nevertheless, I am unable to answer the question about how you'd be rated. I've heard a rumor that $15 with continuous come will only get you a rating of $15-30 total at some places... which obviously would be game breaking for you.
Lastly... your betting style shows you like volatility. Consider buying the 4 and 10... the edge is on the same level as placing the 6&8. You can make a LOT of money when there are 3-4 4's before a 7 out. At the very least, replace your placing the 5 and 9 with buying the 4 and 10.
As you are finding out, chasing comps can be like making a deal with the devil. You have done well by getting the room comps up front, but now you feel obligated to make good on the play.
My experience has been when I play at a table for less than a couple of hours, my rating doesn't seem to be as high as when I have been playing for 4 hours or more. However, some of that is due to the fact that if I have been at a table for 4 hours there must have been some decent rolls, which means I was pressing my Place and Buy bets, which means a higher average. When I play a table for less than 2 hours, it was probably cold or choppy, and I never got a chance to press much, so my average is much less. That is when your Buy-in becomes important.
Always buy-in with cash, and buy-in for your max for that session. So if you are willing to lose $2k, then buy-in for that amount up front. If you do exit in a couple of hours, at least they will have you down for a $2k loss. Later when you are talking to the host you can explain off your low play due to the quick loss.
Make your first bets bigger. When the pit critter grabs your card and enters it into the system, they will also make their first entry of your bet size. If you have been playing for a bit, they may consult with the box to see how much you have been betting. $15 or $25 PL bet and $80 Inside, (or Buy the 4 / 10 and Place 6 / 8). You want to establish right up front you are willing to put green on the table in multiple bets. That way your first average entered should be at least $100.
When I have a lot of money on the table, and the pit is nearby, I might take that opportunity to ask what my average bet is. I've even told them that I am receiving trip and room comps, and need to maintain a high average bet. That sometimes gets them to up things a bit.
Tipping the dealers has helped my ratings (and I don't mean $1 on a hardway). Put a $5 bet on the PL when you shoot, and put full odds on it. The box will notice.
PL and Come Bets only are probably not going to get you much of a rating. That may be the best way to play craps, but you probably won't get future rooms comp'd there. I have found that you are better off if you are the big player on the table. If you buy in for $2k, and everyone else buys in for $500, they notice you more, and if you are betting higher, you get a good rating. But go to another table where 3 other guys bought in for $5k, and they will barley notice you, and your rating will likely be lower, especially oif the other guys are at the other end of the table. However if the pit is lazy, or overworked, this can also work to your advantage. They may just scan the table, see black chips out there, and give everyone a good rating and move on. It happens.
Play at one table if you can for 3 or 4 hours.
Try to bet big when you see the pit coming to rate the table.
Talk to the pit, ask what your average is, and try to finagle a higher rating. (It works. I have gotten really good ratings a few times).
Get on a table with some good rolls. You can bet higher when you are winning.- Like you can control this :-)
Bet Inside or Across when the point is set, and then Come Bet. You can use the Place/Buy bet to become your odds, and you should get credit for the initial bets. Of course an immediate 7 out will cost you $150 or so..........
Good luck with your Vegas trip. I need to make some money with some day trades before I play craps again. And I am dead set on my next craps game being at the Beau Rivage. I need a good win and that place has always been good to me. Being retired and playing golf every day is fun, but it has put a serious damper on my discretionary gambling funds.
There are no box people anymore at Caesars casinos in Vegas. There are the three dealers and a floor person who does double-duty as box man and floor man. Actually, the base dealers share the duties of the box man, signing markers, exchanging cash for chips, coloring up, etc. Then the floorman checks and approves.
Regarding talking to a host if you lose your bankroll too quickly: This is a true story. A frequent player at Caesars Palace had a $25,000 craps bankroll for a weekend. He had a horrible time at the table and lost his full $25,000 in the first two hours of play. No kidding. At the end of his 3-day visit he was refused comps for his trip. (This was pre-Total Rewards when comps were at the discretion of a host.) He was told that because he did not play the required four hours per day he was not granted comps. He did get his trip comped but only because several of the other big players walked into the casino manager's office and complained on his behalf. I mention that because it was true BEFORE Total Rewards.
Today, your comps have nothing to do with your bankroll. They have everything to do with some secret formula for how much you bet, what bets you make, and how long you are at the table.
Caesars Palace, and I am sure all of the other Vegas Caesars properties, have a three tier system for comping players based on their bets.
There is the so-called "expert player" and by this they mean players who make the lowest house edge bets. If you are an expert player you are going to get the lowest comps.
There is the middle player who makes bets that include all of the box numbers and maybe some hardways. This player gets a mid-level amount of comps.could
And then there is the aggressive player who makes a lot of high house edge bets including hop bets, lots of horn and hardways and field bets and this player will get the most comps per $ wagered.
THAT is how the comp system works now.
I know a player who bets heavily on the place 6 and place 8 and passline with full odds who is low both on Tier Score and Reward Credits since he is rated as an
"expert player."
And yes, they count odds towards your rating, but unfortunately since there is no HE on odds, that will actually work against you and not for you.
Yes, it does help if you start out with heavy betting as your first bet/bets could carry over for your rating especially if there is a shift change for the floor person.
But most important -- be sure that when you color up and leave, or leave busted, that you check with the floor man to see that you were rated properly. Sometimes, if you lost, the floor person might even boost up your average. And it doesn't hurt to ask for a boost in your rating. It's frequently done. Say you are close to the next tier level.
Quote: RaleighCrapsSorry villa, my laptop decided to crap out on me, so I missed this thread. :-(
Make your first bets bigger. When the pit critter grabs your card and enters it into the system, they will also make their first entry of your bet size. If you have been playing for a bit, they may consult with the box to see how much you have been betting. $15 or $25 PL bet and $80 Inside, (or Buy the 4 / 10 and Place 6 / 8). You want to establish right up front you are willing to put green on the table in multiple bets. That way your first average entered should be at least $100.
Bet Inside or Across when the point is set, and then Come Bet. You can use the Place/Buy bet to become your odds, and you should get credit for the initial bets. Of course an immediate 7 out will cost you $150 or so..........
Good luck with your Vegas trip. I need to make some money with some day trades before I play craps again. And I am dead set on my next craps game being at the Beau Rivage. I need a good win and that place has always been good to me. Being retired and playing golf every day is fun, but it has put a serious damper on my discretionary gambling funds.
Thanks to all that responded. A ton of good information in your posts. RaleighCraps, I think I am going with your idea of betting $30 on 6-8 and buying $25 on 4 and 10 with $15 PL and full odds. (get the visual of a fair chunk of green on across the table). I then do my standard come bets and replace the initial $125 place/buy bets with Come/PL/Odds bets. Throw a few hard ways bets and see if that does the trick.
Now all I need is a hot table and I am all set. So in summary, make sure I have at least a $100 initial bet, use place/buy bets to ensure I get credit for the bet and play at least 4 hours. If I get a cold table, then play until buy-in is lost inform the person rating me why I am leaving and confirm my average bet.
One more question.... if you switch tables does that reset the clock (i.e. playing at cold table for hour, move to another table).
As always, you folks are awesome.
Quote: villarrrThanks to all that responded. A ton of good information in your posts. RaleighCraps, I think I am going with your idea of betting $30 on 6-8 and buying $25 on 4 and 10 with $15 PL and full odds. (get the visual of a fair chunk of green on across the table). I then do my standard come bets and replace the initial $125 place/buy bets with Come/PL/Odds bets. Throw a few hard ways bets and see if that does the trick.
I'm curious: what type of rating (Tier score) and comps (Reward Credits) are you expecting with this kind of action? I am going to estimate that after four hours of play you will have 300 tier points and $20 in comps.
Regarding switching tables: be sure you let the floor person know that you have moved from whatever table so they can carry over your rating. It's also a good idea to tell the floorman at the first table that you are moving to a different table.
And which casino are you expecting to find $15 flat bets on the passline? Yes, sometimes at Caesars Palace they have $10 and $15 flat bets, but often the minimum is $25 especially in the evenings and overnight when only one table is in action.
At Paris, Ballys, Flamingo, Linq, Rio and Cromwell you will find $10 and sometimes $5 minimums.
Quote: villarrrBackground. I am headed to Vegas for Memorial day weekend and they have just assigned me a host (I have only been gambling around a year, and Diamond level... no aspiration level). I typically buy in for $1K-$2K, with my trip bankroll for this trip of $10K.
Now the host(I am relatively new to this host thing) was nice enough to comp me rooms at the Cromwell. He did point out he had to make an exception and asked for "solid play" from me. I am trying to be respectful of that request.
The problem for me seems to be that I get much higher ratings at my main casino (Horseshoe Baltimore) than at the Vegas properties.
My play style is simple, I put out the minimum bet on pass line, back with full odds, then bet come bets with full odds until I have covered 3-6 points. I feel like in Baltimore I am getting credit for all those come line bets (I suspect not the odds) so that I have (on $15 table... $45 to $90 average bet going). In Vegas it feels like they are only picking up the pass line bet. Also I find that I tend to bounce around more in Vegas, (i.e. switch Casinos/Tables after 1-2 hours vs a typical 4 hour session in Baltimore(obviously I stay put more with the hotel a 15 minute cab ride and no other casino option)
Analytic Questions:
1) Is my issue the table time (i.e. is the that the most important thing ... play at least 4 hours at one table or is it 4 hours in one casino... making sure pit boss tracks me to next table)
2) How do I know what average bet they are using for me (are they counting all the come bets or just the first pass line bet)
3) Would it be better to bet the inside (5-6-8-9) at $15-$18-$18-$15 and replace with come bets as the come up... and guarantee a higher average bet?
4) Which leads again to the 1st question, should i focus on a higher average bet or longer play time
Philosophical Question: (RaleighCraps)
1) Is all this worth it... or should I bet pretty much any i feel like. Typically at a craps table (even a $15 table), $1K swings per hour are typical... which would easily could represent the cost of the room. Plus I am supporting the resort as I use their other facilities. In short, I want to respect the effort of my host but still feel to play my own game.
Thoughts... plus if anyone is around (RaleighCraps you are due for for Vegas trip right?) let know and we can discuss at the craps table :-)
Villar...I can speak to the Horseshoe Baltimore part. I too get rated there much higher (BJ usually, not craps) than at any other CET property, incl. AC, Vegas and some misc. others. I think they are maybe being generous with ratings to compete with MD Live, and try to build a loyal cust. base. I know several CET players who have made Platinum or Diamond for the first time ever do to the generous Horseshoe Balt. ratings. I'm speaking strictly tables. I don't play enough machines to say.
I'm thinking of going to Baltimore for the Preakness. I have a wedding in D.C. that weekend and they're close enough together to do both. I wonder if I have enough juice with my host to get a freebie that weekend. How crazy is it for the race, especially considering the other stuff that's been going on?Quote: vendman1Villar...I can speak to the Horseshoe Baltimore part. I too get rated there much higher (BJ usually, not craps) than at any other CET property, incl. AC, Vegas and some misc. others. I think they are maybe being generous with ratings to compete with MD Live, and try to build a loyal cust. base. I know several CET players who have made Platinum or Diamond for the first time ever do to the generous Horseshoe Balt. ratings. I'm speaking strictly tables. I don't play enough machines to say.
Quote: teddysI'm thinking of going to Baltimore for the Preakness. I have a wedding in D.C. that weekend and they're close enough together to do both. I wonder if I have enough juice with my host to get a freebie that weekend. How crazy is it for the race, especially considering the other stuff that's been going on?
First let me endorse the Horseshoe Baltimore as a very nice property (nicer than most of CET Vegas properties IMHO). There is no hotel on site so typically they put you up in the Sheraton on the Inner Harbor region of the city. I recommend the Hyatt.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI'm curious: what type of rating (Tier score) and comps (Reward Credits) are you expecting with this kind of action? I am going to estimate that after four hours of play you will have 300 tier points and $20 in comps.
Regarding switching tables: be sure you let the floor person know that you have moved from whatever table so they can carry over your rating. It's also a good idea to tell the floorman at the first table that you are moving to a different table.
And which casino are you expecting to find $15 flat bets on the passline? Yes, sometimes at Caesars Palace they have $10 and $15 flat bets, but often the minimum is $25 especially in the evenings and overnight when only one table is in action.
At Paris, Ballys, Flamingo, Linq, Rio and Cromwell you will find $10 and sometimes $5 minimums.
I am staying at the Cromwell for three days over the weekend, and as you mentioned I had no issue finding $15 tables last time. (In fact there were $5 tables on Friday night!)
Regarding what rating I am shooting for... really I am just trying to show a "decent" play rate. The plan being to gamble ~4 hours per day at around a $100 to $200 average bet level. That level assume average performing tables... effectively it represents the amount of fluctuation my stomach can tolerate at this point of my gambling development.
If this play level is not good enough... that's fine, its easy to find deeply discounted MGM rooms (cough Aria) for ~$130 a night. I do like the Cromwell though.
Quote: villarrrFirst let me endorse the Horseshoe Baltimore as a very nice property (nicer than most of CET Vegas properties IMHO). There is no hotel on site so typically they put you up in the Sheraton on the Inner Harbor region of the city. I recommend the Hyatt.
Wait I just figured out you were talking about getting the Preakness "freebied"... my bad.
Quote: RaleighCrapsIf you change tables just be sure they get ur card set up on the new table. It is usually the same person doing the rating so that helps.
This is among the best advice given. I can't tell you the number of times I have switched tables only to have a host ask me for my card a couple hours later and tell me I wasn't in the system. Now I make sure they know if I move tables.
Otherwise, in my non-vegas experience I can say there is a lot of randomness in how different pit bosses rate players. I was under the impression it was a standard formula, but it's more art than science for sure so I also recommend the advice of checking with the pit boss before leaving to ensure you were rated correctly.
I am a Friday and Saturday night player at my local casino and will frequently log 10+ hour sessions. I was tracking my points because at the second level (I'm not a baller by any stretch, I just like to play) you get free valet parking. Some nights after 10 hours I would earn 2000-3000 points, some nights for the same buy in, same action and same hours I would earn 400. It's just insanely random how different pit bosses rate the same play.
I would say play the game you are comfortable with and let the comps fall where they may.
Quote: AtGame7This is among the best advice given. I can't tell you the number of times I have switched tables only to have a host ask me for my card a couple hours later and tell me I wasn't in the system. Now I make sure they know if I move tables.
I would say play the game you are comfortable with and let the comps fall where they may.
I think the last line sums it up. I going there for fun (not for work), my intent is gamble but only to the level I am comfortable and having fun at. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and strategies. You guys are awesome.
Rey
