Consumer Warning - Unbalanced Casino Dice for Sale
I don't get it. If you believe that why don't you go take advantage of it? If I knew the casinos gaffed the keno numbers 13, 3 and 33 to come up more often because people never picked them. I wouldn't complain, 13, 3 and 33 would soon become my favorite numbers.Quote: Bohemianpetroglyph, sounds like Laughlin is trying to get overflow from the Fight of the Century So sounds like Laughlin pulled out what we refer to as the dark "burgundy red large" Indian dice early for Fight weekend:
Quote: Zcore13
Every die, every chip, every card is tracked from factory to floor to removal. They are all handled the same and used the same. None are singled out to be biased or unbiased. None are tracked for their bias and recorded.
I do wonder how many of these claimants have ever worked in or are aware of the process. I'd not mind hearing them state how dice are obtained, and then explaining in which step or at one point the switcheroo takes place.
I have worked and I'll tell you this - we once were given the task to "be a crim". We were to brainstorm and devise ways to put one over on the casino, from inside or outside, in any way possible. It was a sort of test of our defenses, from the guys who knew the defenses best.
I came up with a way to steal the entire drop, millions of dollars, without a gun, bomb, or even a confrontation. Literally walk right out the door with it. It was so good, this little thought experiment came to a dead stop and the entire subject went completely mum. But given that, I still could not figure out a way to gaff a game.
Very telling, innit?
Quote: BohemianZer0 - that would be a great idea except all the dice on the same table have the same serial number. You may instead just ask the Stickman quickly before he dumps the bowl of dice that you would like to have the "Same dice as the previous shooter please". If the casino will not allow this option, you know something is fishy and you should take your business elsewhere.
yeah, I mean hell just do that? any bias can be exploited by the player IF it is in fact there, if I were the house I'd weigh them in favor of landing on 3 or 4, maybe occasionally 5 & 2, 6 & 1 make too many extremes so they would be idiots to do that, especially for crapless players like me (call me a sucker but I drive an extra 10 miles to go to River City instead of Hollywood or Ameristar because River City is the only one in STL with $5 crapless). So basically, if you're that concerned, watch the shooter before you, try to get their dice if they have a long roll, and if you see a lot of rolls involving a specific number, bet on hops or hardways involving that number, and set the dice to whatever you feel like will give you what you're trying to get. if the dice are biased --- which, fair warning they probably aren't -- that's good for YOU, not the house, just work with it.
It is my understanding that no one die can roll a 7 by itself, and any two dice have to have different numbers on them in order to add up to the odd number 7.
Exactly how do they get you to pick out the right two dice out of the 5 that are going to roll 7?
Maybe, what, 2 of the dice like to roll 1's, two of the dice like to roll 6's, and one of them alternates between 4 and 3 a lot.
How do they get the right two dice into your hands, when you are the one picking them out?
Quote: Dalex64Say a casino dumps 5 biased dice in front of you.
It is my understanding that no one die can roll a 7 by itself, and any two dice have to have different numbers on them in order to add up to the odd number 7.
Exactly how do they get you to pick out the right two dice out of the 5 that are going to roll 7?
Maybe, what, 2 of the dice like to roll 1's, two of the dice like to roll 6's, and one of them alternates between 4 and 3 a lot.
How do they get the right two dice into your hands, when you are the one picking them out?
please stop using intelligence and reason. You were going to blow up the dice influencer minds.
Thank you
ZCore13
Quote: Dalex64Say a casino dumps 5 biased dice in front of you.
It is my understanding that no one die can roll a 7 by itself, and any two dice have to have different numbers on them in order to add up to the odd number 7.
Exactly how do they get you to pick out the right two dice out of the 5 that are going to roll 7?
Maybe, what, 2 of the dice like to roll 1's, two of the dice like to roll 6's, and one of them alternates between 4 and 3 a lot.
How do they get the right two dice into your hands, when you are the one picking them out?
Devil's advocate here. +1 to you and Zcore, but let me ramble for a moment.
There is an AP shot in craps (can't remember what Zender called it) but it effectively kills one die. One will tumble as normal and become randomized, the other spins or slides and stays on whatever number the shooter chose. Obviously, you can see how this would change the probability of outcomes.
If this has been done by AP, then it absolutely could work in favor of the casino. They could not effectively introduce what you have said - a heavy 1 and a heavy 6 to increase 7's since you're picking two random dice out of a pile of five. But if they introduced uniformly biased dice, they could manipulate the game. A heavy 3, for example, would increase the appearance of the 4. Many of the hops drop, the field drops, 7's increase... and since many players bet a certain way and stick with it, the theory of the mechanics does have merit.
Of course, that doesn't answer the huge question - how? How do you purposely bias a stick, how do you communicate which bias said stick has, how do you communicate which bias is needed to tackle a particular table makeup, and how do you keep such a huge conspiracy quiet?
Quote: FaceDevil's advocate here. +1 to you and Zcore, but let me ramble for a moment.
There is an AP shot in craps (can't remember what Zender called it) but it effectively kills one die. One will tumble as normal and become randomized, the other spins or slides and stays on whatever number the shooter chose. Obviously, you can see how this would change the probability of outcomes.
If this has been done by AP, then it absolutely could work in favor of the casino. They could not effectively introduce what you have said - a heavy 1 and a heavy 6 to increase 7's since you're picking two random dice out of a pile of five. But if they introduced uniformly biased dice, they could manipulate the game. A heavy 3, for example, would increase the appearance of the 4. Many of the hops drop, the field drops, 7's increase... and since many players bet a certain way and stick with it, the theory of the mechanics does have merit.
Of course, that doesn't answer the huge question - how? How does you purposely bias a stick, how do you communicate which bias said stick has, how do you communicate which bias is needed to tackle a particular table makeup, and how do you keep such a huge conspiracy quiet?
I like the devils advocate view. It helps attempt to see all sides. But as you mentioned, it just doesn't make sense that it could happen.
First, how long would it take for someone to be asked to leave or not shoot if one of their die didn't rotate, slid or died at the base of the wall without bouncing? If something can't be accomplished without getting noticed and stopped, it's really not viable.
Second, Of all the current and former dice dealers and supervisors in the modern history of gambling (post Mob maybe), how many have come out and said they sneak in biased dice or do anything that would change the odds of the game? That would be a pretty big story wouldn't it. Would probably make a lot of money for someone that has the proof of anything like that. Wouldn't be too hard to prove if it did indeed happen when employed. Again, doesn't happen.
All this nonsense is like me saying I practice hundreds of hours a month to perfect my skill at playing two hands of blackjack and switching cards really fast to make better hands. Can I practice this and accomplish it at home? Sure. Can I improve my skills and time it takes to do it with all of this practice. Sure. But what's going to happen when I do it at the casino? Bye bye me.
If you notice, DeMango didn't answer the question posed a few posts up. Conspiracy theorists can never answer questions of fact and logic. They change the subject or dance around the question with other questions and smoke and mirrors.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I like the devils advocate view. It helps attempt to see all sides.
Thanks. Me too. Despite eagleeye's opinion to the contrary, I do attempt to refrain from being a smart ass and participate in these threads for one reason - to promote progress.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, and I'm not an expert in any part of this. But I do have years of protection experience, I have years of casino experience. I've followed Zender, spoke with him, attending his conferences. I follow WoV, I've followed AP's, I follow teliot and APHeat. And I have a better than average grasp on science. My nay saying isn't my attempt to be an ass, it's to try to get something accomplished.
I haven't seen much done on bias outside of the works of Bohemian, Harley, and crew. And if I pooled the biased dice information, all I see is a bunch of thought experiment and supposition. It... it sort of drives me nuts. As I said in the other thread, why have none of them quantified it yet? We know, just based on elementary knowledge of physics, that a die which is weighted or sized in a non uniform manner will bias it towards a side. What we don't know is just how much a die need be biased to reflect a reasonable change in probability. Certainly, no die is perfect down to the molecular level, and that doesn't seem to have an effect. Die get worn or lightly damaged, and that doesn't seem to have an effect either. Die sides get heavier or lighter based on moisture and oils from finger contact, that doesn't seem to have an effect. So how much is "enough"?
They have the tools to test it. Seeing how much time they spend on theories, they have the time to test it. How come no one's done that bit of work of quantifying it? It would go so far in progressing the idea, but no one has done / will do it. Could be they'd find that .05g is enough bias to show a reasonable reflection in outcome. That would be a huge step in supporting their claim. Or, you could find even a full 2g doesn't affect jack, and then we, us and them, could stop wasting our time and not deal with these threads anymore. Either way, it's progress. But instead, they stick in the "stone age" of thought experiments and passionately worded arguments, and we spin our wheels going nowhere.
If I think any of this is "silly", this would be it. The theory of biased die is relatively sound, as far as I can tell. But quantifying bias and determining a manner of introduction are two huge hurdles, neither of which the "pro" side have addressed. I wish they would. Despite my current "anti" stance I'm still interested as all get out. I love me some science =)
The dealers, especially at a busy table, have nothing better to do.Quote: Bohemian. . . All the dice on the same table have the same serial number. You may instead just ask the Stickman quickly before he dumps the bowl of dice that you would like to have the "Same dice as the previous shooter please". If the casino will not allow this option, you know something is fishy and you should take your business elsewhere.
Quote: Zcore13
If you notice, DeMango didn't answer the question posed a few posts up. Conspiracy theorists can never answer questions of fact and logic. They change the subject or dance around the question with other questions and smoke and mirrors.
DeMango does not need to answer. He considers too much smoke coming from one side and an alledged dealer getting huffy on the other. The possibility of cheap dice is intriguing and he is merely speculating what he would do having found such. In fact he believes it would be a cake making opportunity.....hey,hey.
exrerciseQuote: MathExtremistCalculations left as an exercise for the reader.
yuk
how about sexrercise (i see u smile now)
Oh o
WC loves this stuff
Oh o o
to compare for those to (2 or two and not 1+1)
notice no math
cool
;)
