Questionable call by Boxman at the MGM...

I was in Las Vegas at Aria - great trip. Something happened at the MGM that has had me scratching my head though.

I was playing craps at the 15 dollar table around 2-3:30am last Friday. We had 3 incredible rollers back to back to back (There were a few thousand dollars on the table and even someone playing the darkside). It was an exciting table with lots of action - lots of tips for the dealers too.

The point was six. On the shooters roll, one of the dice came to rest between two piles of chips on it’s edge in the field (each pile of chips was a stack of two). The stick men didn’t know whether it was a six (5 and 1) or a seven (5 and 2). The table was in disagreement about what it was as well, but unanimously felt it should probably be a re-roll, which I believe would be the proper custom in this situation. It was too tall to call.

The Boxman told the stick man to pull one pile of chips away to turn the roll into a seven, and Seven’ed out the table rather than pulling the other pair of chips and making a six, or just letting the shooter re-roll. Either pile could be easily pulled by the stickman. Nevertheless, the stickman obliged the bowman and pulled one pile of chips away making the dice fall to a 2, making it a seven.

The table exploded - people we yelling at the boxman and the game grinded to a halt. The stickman and base dealers didn't want to collect the money - in fact they didn't touch it for 5 minutes. The table demanded security footage to be reviewed and when the base dealers and stickman finally did start picking up the money, some of the players tried to push behind the table to get in the boxmans face. The table refused to put new bets down for a new come out roll - it was wild!

***Was this the right call?***
***If not, what is the right call?***
***Can anything be done?***

I wrote the MGM to inform them of the events (which I'm sure are all recorded on the security footage). I know they won't do anything (I'm sure they get lots of complaints about losses at the casino), but wanted to gone on record.

Don't write to MGM.

Write to gaming. (If this is true, I highly doubt this story is true).

Quote: seadragon

The table was in disagreement about what it was as well, but unanimously felt it should probably be a re-roll, which I believe would be the proper custom in this situation. It was too tall to call.

no re-roll unless the die was actually NOT touching the table
i have seen this a few times actually


i say
total blame is on all the pass line players at the table

players make the field bet themselves and should always leave space between different stacks of chips, i have dealers tell players many times this when their odds are too close to their pass line bet


so, 1% fault on the dealers

and 99% fault on all the pass line players
so i guess about 9% is your fault

unless you want to take all the fault for this happening

i was not there
so 0% fault for me

Oh, one may think I'm (Sally Oh) an idiot? (Ren and Stimpy lesson - they funny too)

i might just B 1

Mully

oh, yes
the right call is what the boxman says

Were the dice leaning one way or the other? The rules state that if it comes to rest on an object in the field of play, the call is whatever the dice would be if the object were moved. If it was touching the 5-1 side chips, but the chips that would have it 5-2 were the one holding them up, then it's the correct call. It's difficult to get a visual from the description given.

Whichever way it is leaning towards (more) than the other. Without actually seeing the dice and how they lied, then idk if it was the correct decision or not. But, they are not supposed to move the chips in moving the dice.

Imagine all such objects are ice cubes.... as they slowly melt ... what will happen to the die.

It is a judgment call... its like a die bouncing off a girl's sweater. If its tightly woven, the roll counts. If its a loose, fuzzy weave that interferes with the progress of the die, its a no-roll.

Boxman's word is supposed to be final. Period.

Gaming calls for sums above 500 would have shut the table until an agent arrives.

Reminds me of the 3am flamingo 'momentum' call! My buddy was not having a good session. He's degened/drank himself into a monkeystack the field strategy. $1500 on the field... Dice fly down the table... one comes to a stop against the base of the wall and I swear it was literally on its edge. Truly impossible to call as far as I can tell. Stick looks at box, who calls momentum and a loser for my buddy. Buddy explodes MOMENTUM! WHAT THE F#$% DO YOU MEAN MOMENTUM??!!! IF THERE WAS ANY F#$%ING MOMENTUM LEFT IN THAT F#$%ING DIE IT WOULDN'T F#$%ING BE LEANING AGAINST THE F#$%ING WALL! Might of had to leave after that.

Had those kinda calls go either way. Just sucks to get one go against you on a stupid large bet or when the tables hot!

Quote: FleaStiff

Gaming calls for sums above 500 would have shut the table until an agent arrives.

What's that supposed to mean? Gaming usually comes within a reasonably amount of time with 1 call. I have seen them come on absolutely ridiculous calls.

One time gaming control came out because some guy was playing a Double Diamond slot machine that had car symbols on it, 3 car symbols won the car. The machine clearly stated wild symbols didn't count towards the car. He got double Diamond double Diamond car symbol and he wanted 4 cars and claimed the double Diamond wasn't wild.

I have called gaming quite a few times, they have came out each time and have sided with me most of the time, except on 2 occasions.

Is seems to be agent dependent on the derision making, if you don't like the decision there's an appeal process.

Quote: AxelWolf

What's that supposed to mean? Gaming usually comes within a reasonably amount of time with 1 call. I have seen them come on absolutely ridiculous calls.

One time gaming control came out because some guy was playing a Double Diamond slot machine that had car symbols on it, 3 car symbols won the car. The machine clearly stated wild symbols didn't count towards the car. He got double Diamond double Diamond car symbol and he wanted 4 cars and claimed the double Diamond wasn't wild.

I have called gaming quite a few times, they have came out each time and have sided with me most of the time, except on 2 occasions.

Is seems to be agent dependent on the derision making, if you don't like the decision there's an appeal process.

lol, I'm sure after that they clarified the text to say explicitly it has to be 3 cars and that double diamond symbols don't count towards it.

I have the suspicion that many dealers are trained to quickly call a '7' if there is doubt. Perhaps that training is indirect, such as having other dealers give you the lowdown privately on 'how to keep your job'.

So in this case the dealers who wouldnt make the call were messing with a boxman they didnt like?

So one player had 2 stacks in the field too close together or it was two different players?

He should have moved the other chip stack, clearly indicating that the die was leaning against the first stack. Then move that first stack, and there you have your final roll. Bottom line, it was the same.

Quote: mustangsally

no re-roll unless the die was actually NOT touching the table
i have seen this a few times actually


i say
total blame is on all the pass line players at the table

players make the field bet themselves and should always leave space between different stacks of chips, i have dealers tell players many times this when their odds are too close to their pass line bet


so, 1% fault on the dealers

and 99% fault on all the pass line players
so i guess about 9% is your fault

unless you want to take all the fault for this happening

Thanks for the reply and good point. One of the twos stacks was mine - Two of us were standing at the end of the table and we were playing the field on almost every roll (since we both had 5,6 & 7) - in pulling money of the field our bets ended up too close to each other.

I can't remember if the die in question was touching the table (it was held up the chips - they were tight together in the corner of the field). When the stickman finally complied with the boxman, he jerked the chips away (perhaps to get a little momentum on the die going to continue the roll - a few of us were playing pass line bets and backing them up with odds for the casino).

Lesson learned on keeping chips separate.

Quote: Nostron

So one player had 2 stacks in the field too close together or it was two different players?

Two different players.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

He should have moved the other chip stack, clearly indicating that the die was leaning against the first stack. Then move that first stack, and there you have your final roll. Bottom line, it was the same.

I would have been satisfied with this, and it was truly on it's edge, too tall to call. The outrage of the table came from it would have definitely fallen to six with a pull the other way.

Quote: sc15

Don't write to MGM.

Write to gaming. (If this is true, I highly doubt this story is true).

Thanks for the tip. Sadly, this story is very true (although I get that people gripe about bad beats everyday and skew the facts).

I wish I had thought to get some of the peoples info at the table to encourage everyone to write Gaming. It wasn't a bunch of people taking a hit at the end of a bad beat - it was a bunch of people who were all up and couldn't believe the casino would make such a deliberate move to seven out a table. Three men were literally trying to push in behind the table to get in the bowman's face - the rules of etiquette ceased to exist to everyone at the table. Never seen anything like it!

Quote: FleaStiff

Imagine all such objects are ice cubes.... as they slowly melt ... what will happen to the die.

It is a judgment call... its like a die bouncing off a girl's sweater. If its tightly woven, the roll counts. If its a loose, fuzzy weave that interferes with the progress of the die, its a no-roll.

Boxman's word is supposed to be final. Period.

Gaming calls for sums above 500 would have shut the table until an agent arrives.

This might explain why the base dealers and stickman wouldn't pick up the money at first - they let it sit for five minutes while talking to the boxman. Then, while all the players continued to yell at the Boxman and no shooter when throw a come out roll, the pit bosses replaced the bowman.

Quote: sc15

Don't write to MGM.

Write to gaming. (If this is true, I highly doubt this story is true).

Quote: seadragon

Thanks for the tip. Sadly, this story is very true (although I get that people gripe about bad beats everyday and skew the facts).

I wish I had thought to get some of the peoples info at the table to encourage everyone to write Gaming. It wasn't a bunch of people taking a hit at the end of a bad beat - it was a bunch of people who were all up and couldn't believe the casino would make such a deliberate move to seven out a table. Three men were literally trying to push in behind the table to get in the bowman's face - the rules of etiquette ceased to exist to everyone at the table. Never seen anything like it!

Also, how do I write to gaming?

Too tall to call normally refers to a die in a player's chip rack. If a die is caught between two bets and is on its edge, usually they will call a suspended die and a no roll. Without actually being there I can't say what is the correct call, but the box always has the final say. This isn't something you can go to the cameras on either, since you would never be able to tell what the die is actually doing from a surveillance shot. Yelling is definitely not going to accomplish anything. If the table was as good as you said, I'd just be happy with my win and color up and leave.

I always tell people to put air between their bets and mine, or I'll move my bet somewhere else.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

He should have moved the other chip stack, clearly indicating that the die was leaning against the first stack. Then move that first stack, and there you have your final roll. Bottom line, it was the same.

Thank you for that great explanation! It's too bad that the boxman didn't give the players a lecture and demonstration of that effect (by standing the other die between two stacks of chips) before he had one of the stacks moved.

To blame the player is ridiculous. If you place your bet in the wrong spot it is up to the dealer to correct it.

Quote: rsactuary

To blame the player is ridiculous. If you place your bet in the wrong spot it is up to the dealer to correct it.

Uhh....no.

Quote: rsactuary

To blame the player is ridiculous. If you place your bet in the wrong spot it is up to the dealer to correct it.

no way ridiculous
the Field bet is a self-service bet and the players are responsible for making it properly
and leaving room for a die to fall in be tween two stacks

i would say if the dealer or stickie had time to correct it they might but too bad i say

i now feel, 100% players fault
they got what they deserved

a hard lesson
but they were winners just playing craps
in my opinion
Sally