Winstar Casino Card Craps?

Hello All; I went to the Winstar Casino in Oklahoma last night. The only craps table they have employs the card craps model. HOWEVER, after the cards are shuffled by the CSM, three cards are dealt onto the table. One of the cards will be turned over...say it is a 5 of diamonds, the dealer(stickman) slides the card over a small glass screen which then creates a "dice throw" image onto the large monitor. The "dice throw" has NO resemblance to the card that was turned over. The 5 of diamonds became a "dice throw" of 4 and 2 for a point of 6. This happened several times, none of the turned over cards became their respective dice throws. It seems that whatever card is turned over is then fed over the glass screen...then a COMPUTER generates the dice throw based on the card? Is this correct? And if their state constitution disallows games based on the throw of dice, why would you allow computerized dice throws? Please assist. Thanks.

Winstar used to be my home casino. The way it was explained to me by the card-roulette croupier was that the constitution is concerned with literal dice and and roulette balls. Besides, the computer isn't actually using or throwing dice, it's just using a RNG.

Thanks; Assuming RNG is random numerical generator, how would the consumer/gambler know whether it is programmed with a bias. My 20 minute observation noted "no" hardways 4's, 6's, 8's or 10's.

Quote: J1ohnny

Thanks; Assuming RNG is random numerical generator, how would the consumer/gambler know whether it is programmed with a bias.

no way to know for sure
i say

i thinks also the programmers do not even know, by the method used, how much of a bias their rng they use actually has
they feel it is good enough

they should just use 2 sets of 6 cards like in CA
simple and easy and fair
my opinion

Quote: J1ohnny

My 20 minute observation noted "no" hardways 4's, 6's, 8's or 10's.

well the chance the next roll is not a hardway = 32/36
so for 20 rolls without a hardway = abouts 1 in 11
30 rolls = abouts 1 in 35

what do you think the chances are in 20 minutes to see no hardays are?
maybe 1 in 1 million?
so the rng could be rigged?

they could program the software
to produce a roll that would cause the most losses per roll
but i think most would stop playing after losing everything every time they play

if you owned the casino, say
how would you have this done, cant use real dice
to make it fair?

it matters

Sally

Quote: mustangsally

what do you think the chances are in 20 minutes to see no hardays are?
maybe 1 in 1 million?
so the rng could be rigged?
Sally

That means you'd have to roll 120 times in 20 minutes, or one roll every 10 seconds. Assuming 2 rolls a minute, odds of no hardways are about 1%

Well, thanks to all who responded. I just did not have a good feel for this card crap game as compared to a standard dice game. Just continue to observe, maybe become a don't pass bettor.

why don't they use one of the electronic craps games available in the market? There's at least 3 different ones.

They use a 36 card deck. Each card corresponds to a combination of dice. For example 5 of diamonds is a 4,2. 6 of clubs might be 2,4. So there is no RNG involved outside the shuffler. Last time I played there they handed out a sheet of paper showing what all the different cards/results were. A new deck is used for each roll.

Quote: Frogger

why don't they use one of the electronic craps games available in the market? There's at least 3 different ones.

True craps is probably not approved by the state. The cards are a "work around" to allow the game. I really don't know this for sure though.

UPDATE:

Figured I would add to this old thread since it came up in Google...

As of August 2018 Winstar now offers $1 Craps games using dice. Tables are available 24/7. There is a $1 ante which is required by state law.

Twitter - /WinStarWorld/status/1031963236361482240
@WinStarWorld: Craps with REAL dice is LIVE here at WinStar! Check it out in the Beijing and Vienna Gaming Plazas now!

/WinStarWorld/status/1041799844996833281
@WinStarWorld: ... Open 24/7, minimum bets are $1!

Wow, $1 minimum is crazy! I wonder if that's just a promotional since the game is so new or it will be normal.

I wonder what their roulette minimums are...

Based on what I have seen and read from them the $1 minimum bet is the standard bet, plus you pay the $1 Ante on every come out roll.

I also have seen some things that make me think if you are betting $25 or more, you don't pay the ante.

I plan to make a trip to the Casino this weekend to check it out. It is only an hours drive from my house in North Dallas.

Quote: PachucoBro

Based on what I have seen and read from them the $1 minimum bet is the standard bet, plus you pay the $1 Ante on every come out roll.

I also have seen some things that make me think if you are betting $25 or more, you don't pay the ante.

The minimum bet is $5.

There is an ante on every come out roll. If you don’t make a come out bet, then you pay the ante when your bet goes live, such as making a place bet with no pass bet.

Once you make the ante for that hand, no further ante is required.

For example, come out roll 7 winner, 2 craps, 11 yo, 3 craps, then point of 4. That will be $5 worth of antes. It’s $1 per come out ROLL, not shooter. Once the point is established, if you’ve already paid the ante, then no further ante is required to make odds or any center/prop bets.

If you don’t make a pass bet and only a place bet, then if a pass line point winner rolls, you have to pay another ante to make your place bet go live. They collect antes like mad.

I saw lots of people betting $5 with a $1 ante.

Not true that at $25 min they waive the ante. They never waive the ante.

I only went to Winstar to see and make a TR. It’s not worth going to any of these OK casinos. Alcohol is NOT comped and overpriced. When I was there, a can of Coors light was $4.50, but it was happy hour, so $4.00.

The tables are packed. People just don’t care about the ante. I think they see it as the cost of entertainment.

Thanks for the clarification on the minimum bets. I typically will have a min bet (1 unit) on the Pass Line and about 3-10 units using Come and Don't Come bets.

Yeah I understood the Ante as being for each come out roll. It's what... 20% if you just play $5 on the PL? Not really worth it at all.

I'm not a big drinker or really a drinker at all so I could care less about the cost of alcohol, but you are gonna buy something to drink if you are sitting in the casino for several hours.

I think most Oklahoma casinos offer free coffee, tea, and soda, though. I know I've seen that before.

Quote: PachucoBro

Yeah I understood the Ante as being for each come out roll. It's what... 20% if you just play $5 on the PL? Not really worth it at all.

so,
bet $100 (on the pass line, sure) and that makes the 'fee' 1%
does it not?

but when one makes 30 bets per hour per come out rolls
that is $30 per hour.

must be some super math challenged players playing Craps in that part of the country
but for a fix it is inexpensive

imo, that game and fee system will be lost very soon
as it was in SoCal
Sally

Right now, even with the ante system, both OK casinos that border Texas are packed to the gills, so they have no incentive to remove the ante. Just more profit.

One of the pits was laughing and bragging about how they can charge anything they want, including charging for alcohol, and if people don’t like it, they can drive three hours to Shreveport. They’re quite confident and arrogant. And he was making this brag to the entire table.

It wouldn’t be that bad if people were betting $100. That would add about 1% to the HE. But most people are betting in the $5-$25 range. Lots of people betting $5 pass with $10 odds. And sometimes it takes two or three come it rolls to establish a point, so that’s more antes.

In defense of the OK casinos and their craps game, that’s still a lower overall loss per hour than slots.

According to my math, it costs about $30 an hour worth of antes to play the OK craps game.

People just don’t care.

Quote: mustangsally

imo, that game and fee system will be lost very soon
as it was in SoCal
Sally

Well it isn't going to go away anytime soon... this ante system is a State Legislative thing that says Tribal Casinos can't make money directly from the table games.

Every dollar you lose at a table game can not be taken by the casino as profit. That money goes to: The State of OK (10%), the cost of running the game and promotions for guests.

The Ante is the only way the casino can profit. Without it... the casino is a Non-Profit Organization... technically... AND that ain't gonna happen. ;)

Allegedly, the casino is supposed to give the money won from the HE back to the players.

At casino Morongo in CA, when I was there years ago, they had a promotion where if you got 3 BJs in a row, you win a free $500 that came from the player pool that was fed by the HE.

The OK casinos have no such pool. I spoke to a pit who confirmed no such player pool. His justification was that the money won from the players is used to also pay the winning bets. I asked him what about the money won from the HE? He just shrugged his shoulders and said it stays with the casino to pay the players if the casino has a bad month.

Technically they can say that the money won from the HE is used to pay for comps. So many loopholes they can use to justify the ‘promotions for players’.

I’m the end, I think they just keep it as profit and write it off by saying they paid it out through various comped promos.